Fearful of future freedoms?

[PrinceofWands]

Is anyone else finding the emotions surrounding the attacks being overshadowed by a growing fear of a surrendering of our liberties and freedoms?

~The Senate has approved a bill removing the need of judicial involvement regarding wiretaps, Carnivore, and fully supporting Echelon invasion of privacy.

~False arrests and accusations are running wild.

~I'm seeing a large push towards Christian views and reliances (especially from our president, who should at least attempt to remain non-denominational while in the public eye)

~Congressional discussions of proper institution of the concepts in the War Act.



I mean, I realize that emotions are high right now. I also know that certain elements have been far to lax and will be corrected (like airport security). But in the last 50 years the only way I've ever seen the government try to correct a problem is by unilaterally removing our basic freedoms. I'm torn right now as to whom I fear more, Bush or Bin Ladden.

 

[aircooled]

I agree that Bush should probably be a little more non-denominate, as America is the home of religious freedom. But at this time in life, I'm not worried about the wire taps and false arrests, etc... If this were not a time of war then I would agree 100%, but our freedom is now the 2nd priority and the protection of our country is the 1st...Terrorist are only going to escolate their actions if we do not deal with this immediatley.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Agreed, and I understand that. But unfortunately the government is not in the habit of surrendering control once attained. In every instance I can name of removal of freedoms, none have ever been returned. This is also true in every other 'developed' nation in the world. Once surrendered, freedom never returns.

 

[dman]

Although the wiretaps and such sound awful... in reality, if you are not a criminal it should have no effect on your life? Am I wrong. I mean, I *really* don't like the idea that the govn. can just listen to my conversations -- it is an invasion of privacy, but, I'm not doing anything wrong. So, they'll just be bored to death at what I have to say.

Of course, the member of the govn. doing the listening could be a neighbor who I don't want nosing about my personal business. So, I agree it sucks. I don't fully understand how much.

 

[Dunbar]

I find it pretty frightening. If it were only in the short term I wouldn't really mind but I'm not so sure our freedoms will be given back as you've mentioned.

 

[Amused]

<< Is anyone else finding the emotions surrounding the attacks being overshadowed by a growing fear of a surrendering of our liberties and freedoms?

~The Senate has approved a bill removing the need of judicial involvement regarding wiretaps, Carnivore, and fully supporting Echelon invasion of privacy.

~False arrests and accusations are running wild.

~I'm seeing a large push towards Christian views and reliances (especially from our president, who should at least attempt to remain non-denominational while in the public eye)

~Congressional discussions of proper institution of the concepts in the War Act.



I mean, I realize that emotions are high right now. I also know that certain elements have been far to lax and will be corrected (like airport security). But in the last 50 years the only way I've ever seen the government try to correct a problem is by unilaterally removing our basic freedoms. I'm torn right now as to whom I fear more, Bush or Bin Ladden. >>



The first words out of my mouth when I watched the towers being attacked was, "Say goodbye to your freedoms."

As a libertarian, many of my ideals will be trampled upon in the coming weeks, months, and years because of this.

However, Jerry Pournelle pointed out, we can either be a republic, or an empire. We cannot be both.

We lost some freedoms in 1917, and most were never restored. We lost more in 1941, and some were never restored. We lost a few during prohibition, and athough one was restored, many were not. Lately, we have lost quite a few with the war on drugs, and I fear most of those will never be restored.

Right now, I am behind our nation and it's government 100%. As soon as we eradicate the organizations and countries who pose a threat, I will resume my call for libertarianism, and isolationism as I believe it is our half-assed outward effort to be an empire that has brought this upon ourselves. But for now, it is too late. We must play the part of an empire to not only make us safe, but to save face.

All in all, it's a sad time for the finer points of liberty.

I must point out, it's not Bush you need to be afraid of. The safety police and nanny-staters have been seeking to remove our freedoms for years now. Now they have their chance.

 

[SpongeBob]

But unfortunately the government is not in the habit of surrendering control once attained. In every instance I can name of removal of freedoms, none have ever been returned. This is also true in every other 'developed' nation in the world. Once surrendered, freedom never returns.

Very true. This is exactly what worries me. I like the amount of freedom we have had in the past, I don't want to surrender those freedoms for anything. They are what make America great, and what make it such a great place to live. Unfortunately, there will always be people who exploit our freedoms, like these terrorists. Unless we can find a way to change human nature, we can't have it both ways because the Tim McVeighs of the world will always be there to exploit freedom and cause death and destruction.

 

[Amused]

<< But unfortunately the government is not in the habit of surrendering control once attained. In every instance I can name of removal of freedoms, none have ever been returned. This is also true in every other 'developed' nation in the world. Once surrendered, freedom never returns.

Very true. This is exactly what worries me. I like the amount of freedom we have had in the past, I don't want to surrender those freedoms for anything. They are what make America great, and what make it such a great place to live. Unfortunately, there will always be people who exploit our freedoms, like these terrorists. Unless we can find a way to change human nature, we can't have it both ways because the Tim McVeighs of the world will always be there to exploit freedom and cause death and destruction. >>



With freedom comes risk. We must NOT give up our liberty for the appearence of safety. I'd rather be free, and have risk, than oppressed, and still be at risk. Even the most oppressed societies on earth have terrorism and crime, folks.

 

[Amused]

Another point:

Prisons are arguably the most oppressive places on earth with the least freedom for their inhabitants. Yet prisons still have riots, internal terrorism, a HUGE drug problem, and rampant crime.

All more laws do are rob the law abiding of their freedoms. The criminal or terrorist will always find a way around, through, or over those laws.

As for this situation with security on planes, it is easily addressed with armed undercover sky marshals, armed pilots, and cockpits that are inacessable from the cabins.

Banning plastic knives was, to me, the most pathetic thing I've heard of in a long time.

 

[SpongeBob]

With freedom comes risk. We must NOT give up our liberty for the appearence of safety. I'd rather be free, and have risk, than oppressed, and still be at risk. Even the most oppressed societies on earth have terrorism and crime, folks.

I agree 100%

 

[Double Trouble]

He who is willing to give up liberty for safety deserves neither liberty nor safety. I firmly believe this is true.

While I firmly stand behind the president and the government to do what needs to be done to catch and terminate these animals, I too fear that ultimately the terrorists have already won -- as a nation we are all to willing to give up the freedoms that set the US apart from other places. I understand in times of crises we have to give the government and various agencies a lot more leeway to get the task done.... but we all know that once a government gets something, it never gives it back. For example, wiretapping etc, forget it. The FBI will forever claim they need it to keep us "safe", safeguards and oversight just get in the way of that.......