FDA says -- Juul Illegally Claimed That Its Products Were Safer than Cigarettes.

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
27,025
587
126
The key word is SAFER...they probably are safer....but define safer? I am sure they have helped a lot of people quir smoking cigarettes....yet I would bet they are NOT exactly safer than cigarettes!! Just my uneducated take on the subject! The older you get the more you realize you do not know!!

Juul illegally marketed its e-cigarettes as less harmful than tobacco cigarettes, and must find a way to correct that violation, according to a warning letter from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).


E-cigarettes like Juuls, which heat liquid nicotine instead of burning tobacco, are thought to be less dangerous than cigarettes because they produce fewer cancer-causing chemicals. But “regardless of where products like e-cigarettes fall on the continuum of tobacco product risk, the law is clear that, before marketing tobacco products for reduced risk, companies must demonstrate with scientific evidence that their specific product does in fact pose less risk or is less harmful,” Acting FDA Commissioner Dr. Ned Sharpless said in a statement Monday. “JUUL has ignored the law, and very concerningly, has made some of these statements in school to our nation’s youth.”


E-cigarettes, including the ones made by Juul, are not currently FDA-approved. Juul has until spring 2020 to apply for approval as a new tobacco product.


“We are reviewing the letters and will fully cooperate,” a Juul spokesperson told TIME. The letter requires Juul to submit a plan of correction within 15 business days. If it fails to comply with FDA policy, the agency could resort to fines or injunctions against the company.


The warning letter cites several accusations made in a July Congressional hearing relating to Juul—among them, the allegation that a Juul representative on a school visit told students that the product “was much safer than cigarettes” and “totally safe.” A letter from the CEO posted on Juul’s website also argued that Juul devices “deliver smokers the satisfaction that they want without the combustion and the harm associated with it,” according to the FDA’s statement.
The FDA is also investigating Juul’s use of nicotine salts, a formulation that makes nicotine more palatable to consume and may allow users to take in higher doses at a time, and its high nicotine concentrations, which may be particularly addictive.


As by far the most popular e-cigarette on the market, Juul has been at the center of the FDA’s efforts to curb an epidemic of underage vaping. Last year, the agency carried out an unannounced inspection of its San Francisco headquarters and seized thousands of pages of documents related to its marketing and advertising activity, some of which has been criticized for illegally targeting youth. At the end of 2018, just ahead of proposed FDA regulations to limit the sale of flavored vaping products, Juul elected to stop selling many of its flavored pods in most retail stores, and to suspend its U.S. Instagram and Facebook accounts.


The FDA’s warning comes amid mounting reports of serious lung diseases associated with vaping. Many cases, however, appear to be related to vaping marijuana, not the nicotine contained in Juul pods.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
11,223
1,036
126
Given the sudden and rapid onset of lung disease related to vaping, these products need to come off store shelves ASAP. Not sure how anyone thought it was smart idea to miniaturize a fog machine as a “safe” alternative to smoking, or questioned that the vaping industry used the same exact marketing playbook as big tobacco did.
 

sportage

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2008
7,478
471
126
This attack on vaping is a hoax and media scam orchestrated by none other than THE TOBACCO COMPANIES.
The tobacco companies are losing money, lots of money, because people rather vape to avoid cancer and heart attacks.
Seriously.... look how the news media have become so consumed with vaping and trying to scaring people while thousands/millions have died of tobacco related products over the years and nothing NOTHING has motivated the news media to take on tobacco.
Oh sure, the government forced tobacco slap a little warning sticker on a pack of cigs, but that was about all the government did.
In all fairness, the media should be alarming people and scaring people about the horrors of tobacco use, but we haven't seen THAT.
Instead, the massive wealth of the tobacco companies buy airtime to scare people away from vaping and back into tobacco.
Just as they want it to be.

And as far as any dangers with vaping goes, what people are doing is introducing dangerous additives into their vaping, additives that are on the scale of adding LSD. THAT is where the problems are coming from, not from simple vaping itself.
People are vaping drugs and harmful additives not intended for vaping. And that is where the problems arise.
Vaping itself is safe and saves lives by getting people off tobacco, but some people are druggies and use vaping for getting high and stoned. They are the people ending up in the ER.

The big question should be.... how the hell was tobacco able to infiltrate the news media to scare people back into tobacco?
What was the price paid? And frankly, just how corrupt is the news media? Can we believe anything we are told?
This is scary.
Tobacco through the media can target vaping while that same media totally dismisses the millions of deaths and health aliments directly linked to tobacco.
Do the math yourself. Millions affected from tobacco use and a hand full affected from vaping, yet where does the news media focus on? What ever tobacco tells them to focus on.....
 
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Maxima1

Platinum Member
Jan 15, 2013
2,553
422
126
Given the sudden and rapid onset of lung disease related to vaping, these products need to come off store shelves ASAP. Not sure how anyone thought it was smart idea to miniaturize a fog machine as a “safe” alternative to smoking, or questioned that the vaping industry used the same exact marketing playbook as big tobacco did.
Most seem to think this is isolated to bad chemical reactions not generalizable to vaping, and this seems pretty evident as e-cigs have been around for about a decade. That's why they're recommending to refrain from using anything outside of mainstream.

Vaping is definitely a lot safer than cigs.

 
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Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
25,727
409
126
Making medical claims, gotta provide medical proof. Absolutely falls under the purview of the FDA. Juul needs valid scientific evidence. Simple (in reality - complicated) as that.
 

Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
6,729
3,583
136
This attack on vaping is a hoax and media scam orchestrated by none other than THE TOBACCO COMPANIES.
The tobacco companies are losing money, lots of money, because people rather vape to avoid cancer and heart attacks.
Seriously.... look how the news media have become so consumed with vaping and trying to scaring people while thousands/millions have died of tobacco related products over the years and nothing NOTHING has motivated the news media to take on tobacco.
Oh sure, the government forced tobacco slap a little warning sticker on a pack of cigs, but that was about all the government did.
In all fairness, the media should be alarming people and scaring people about the horrors of tobacco use, but we haven't seen THAT.
Instead, the massive wealth of the tobacco companies buy airtime to scare people away from vaping and back into tobacco.
Just as they want it to be.

And as far as any dangers with vaping goes, what people are doing is introducing dangerous additives into their vaping, additives that are on the scale of adding LSD. THAT is where the problems are coming from, not from simple vaping itself.
People are vaping drugs and harmful additives not intended for vaping. And that is where the problems arise.
Vaping itself is safe and saves lives by getting people off tobacco, but some people are druggies and use vaping for getting high and stoned. They are the people ending up in the ER.

The big question should be.... how the hell was tobacco able to infiltrate the news media to scare people back into tobacco?
What was the price paid? And frankly, just how corrupt is the news media? Can we believe anything we are told?
This is scary.
Tobacco through the media can target vaping while that same media totally dismisses the millions of deaths and health aliments directly linked to tobacco.
Do the math yourself. Millions affected from tobacco use and a hand full affected from vaping, yet where does the news media focus on? What ever tobacco tells them to focus on.....
Juul is owned by Altria -- formerly known as Philip Morris. It would be very odd for the company to sabotage its own business (and spend billions of dollars on an acquisition) by portraying vaping as dangerous. If anything, wouldn't it want to portray vaping as safer so that it still has a business even when cigarettes fall flat?

Vaping is bad for you even without additives and drugs. Juul, for example, includes nicotine; if it's harmful in a regular cigarette, it's harmful in an e-cig. Other vapes include chemicals like diacetyl (which produces "popcorn lung") and formaldehyde. You hear about fewer incidents because vaping as a phenomenon is still much newer, with fewer people practicing it and most vapers yet to suffer long-term effects.

I'd add that the media likely focuses on vaping because it's on the rise and still has some unknowns. Cigarette smoking, for the most part, has been on the decline; everyone knows it's bad for you. It's well-worn territory that doesn't need to be covered again.
 

Maxima1

Platinum Member
Jan 15, 2013
2,553
422
126
Vaping is bad for you even without additives and drugs. Juul, for example, includes nicotine; if it's harmful in a regular cigarette, it's harmful in an e-cig.
Nicotine by itself has incredibly weak addiction potential.

Other vapes include chemicals like diacetyl (which produces "popcorn lung") and formaldehyde. You hear about fewer incidents because vaping as a phenomenon is still much newer, with fewer people practicing it and most vapers yet to suffer long-term effects.
E-cigs have significantly lower concentration (if any added) of diacetyl than cigs, which wasn't associated with popcorn lung. Formaldehyde levels are also significantly lower and only approach or surpass when using high voltage e-cigs.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
11,223
1,036
126
Most seem to think this is isolated to bad chemical reactions not generalizable to vaping, and this seems pretty evident as e-cigs have been around for about a decade. That's why they're recommending to refrain from using anything outside of mainstream.

Vaping is definitely a lot safer than cigs.

Understood, but vaping also has higher nicotine concentrations, is easier to get hooked on and Juul in particular specifically targeted teens. I watched an entire generation die from tobacco related illnesses, and it shocks me how many millenials are now stepping outside to vape.

Its a social taboo to see a pregnant mother smoke, I wonder if we’re about to see a generational wave of low birth weight and other complications due to Juuling.

I understand that vaping may help smokers kick the habit, but what’s the point if it simultaneously hooks an entire other generation on nicotine.
 
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Maxima1

Platinum Member
Jan 15, 2013
2,553
422
126
Understood, but vaping also has higher nicotine concentrations, is easier to get hooked on and Juul in particular specifically targeted teens. I watched an entire generation die from tobacco related illnesses, and it shocks me how many millenials are now stepping outside to vape.
That research isn't saying what you think it is.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16177026

Monoamine oxidase inhibition dramatically increases the motivation to self-administer nicotine in rats.

Nicotine is the major neuroactive compound of tobacco, which has, by itself, weak reinforcing properties. It is known that levels of the enzymes monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A) and MAO-B are reduced in the platelets and brains of smokers and that substances, other than nicotine, present in tobacco smoke have MAO-inhibitory activities. Here, we report that inhibition of MAO dramatically and specifically increases the motivation to self-administer nicotine in rats. These effects were more prominent in rats selected for high responsiveness to novelty than in rats with low responsiveness to novelty. The results suggest that the inhibition of MAO activity by compounds present in tobacco smoke may combine with nicotine to produce the intense reinforcing properties of cigarette smoking that lead to addiction.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
14,189
1,041
126
I hope they don't ban vaping, it got me off of smoking, and quitting vaping was way easier than quitting tobacco.
 
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Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
6,153
261
126
I hope they don't ban vaping, it got me off of smoking, and quitting vaping was way easier than quitting tobacco.


Did you start out vaping with the same amount of nicotine as a cig and then reduce it over time to kick the nic habit?
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
14,189
1,041
126
Did you start out vaping with the same amount of nicotine as a cig and then reduce it over time to kick the nic habit?
Nope. Used the maximum nicotine I could get all the way up till the day I gave it up.
Starting high and reducing is the way to go though.
 
Dec 10, 2005
19,347
644
126
Making medical claims, gotta provide medical proof. Absolutely falls under the purview of the FDA. Juul needs valid scientific evidence. Simple (in reality - complicated) as that.
Yep. Plus, the FDA basically never lets anyone say X is safer than Y, as the term can be somewhat arbitrary. However, you could get away with product X has reduced something compared with product Y, but only if you have a head-to-head study to back it up.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
33,430
3,161
126
Saw some guy vaping today... even after all the related lung disease news. Some people just don't care I guess.
 

Zorba

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 1999
6,985
1,005
126
This attack on vaping is a hoax and media scam orchestrated by none other than THE TOBACCO COMPANIES.
The tobacco companies are losing money, lots of money, because people rather vape to avoid cancer and heart attacks.
Seriously.... look how the news media have become so consumed with vaping and trying to scaring people while thousands/millions have died of tobacco related products over the years and nothing NOTHING has motivated the news media to take on tobacco.
Oh sure, the government forced tobacco slap a little warning sticker on a pack of cigs, but that was about all the government did.
In all fairness, the media should be alarming people and scaring people about the horrors of tobacco use, but we haven't seen THAT.
Instead, the massive wealth of the tobacco companies buy airtime to scare people away from vaping and back into tobacco.
Just as they want it to be.

And as far as any dangers with vaping goes, what people are doing is introducing dangerous additives into their vaping, additives that are on the scale of adding LSD. THAT is where the problems are coming from, not from simple vaping itself.
People are vaping drugs and harmful additives not intended for vaping. And that is where the problems arise.
Vaping itself is safe and saves lives by getting people off tobacco, but some people are druggies and use vaping for getting high and stoned. They are the people ending up in the ER.

The big question should be.... how the hell was tobacco able to infiltrate the news media to scare people back into tobacco?
What was the price paid? And frankly, just how corrupt is the news media? Can we believe anything we are told?
This is scary.
Tobacco through the media can target vaping while that same media totally dismisses the millions of deaths and health aliments directly linked to tobacco.
Do the math yourself. Millions affected from tobacco use and a hand full affected from vaping, yet where does the news media focus on? What ever tobacco tells them to focus on.....
Slow, is that you?

The media beat on Tobacco for at least 15 years. We went from every office being a smoking hole to you can't even smoke on property. Completely smoke free aircraft and restaurants. Driving the cost of smokes through the roof. Etc.

I routinely look at hard copy documents from the 1950s and 60s all the time, and they still smell like smoke 60 years later. Meanwhile, you can be fired if you are caught smoking, dipping or vaping on property today.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
52,597
2,028
126
I believe vaping is safer than smoking...not harmless, just safer. I breathe easier and don't stink like I did when I smoked.
I switched from cigarettes to vaping almost 7 years ago. I still vape 24 mg. Juice...and probably get more nicotine daily than I did with cigarettes...
 

woolfe9998

Diamond Member
Apr 8, 2013
8,517
2,829
136
Most seem to think this is isolated to bad chemical reactions not generalizable to vaping, and this seems pretty evident as e-cigs have been around for about a decade. That's why they're recommending to refrain from using anything outside of mainstream.

Vaping is definitely a lot safer than cigs.

E-cigs have been around since 2000, in the US since 2008. And yes, this appears to be a cluster where the liquids were contaminated with something. I've been vaping since I quit smoking in early 2010, quite a lot actually, and I have no lung issues. My lung health is vastly better than it was a decade ago when I smoked.

Juul is correct. According to bulk of the research out there, e-cigs are safer than cigarettes.
 

Meghan54

Diamond Member
Oct 18, 2009
8,642
1,323
126
Saw some guy vaping today... even after all the related lung disease news. Some people just don't care I guess.
Well, let's examine this feeling you've got.....

You do realize vaping has been around for a couple of decades yet the incidents of severe and sudden onset of lung/breathing problems seem to be a rather recent happening, not something with a decade or two of occurrences, right?

And from the reading into the investigations into these sudden onset breathing problems all seem to center on a single "culprit," the solvents used to suspend THC for vaping. Haven't read of any incidents of out-of-nowhere sudden onset vaping breathing problems associated with commercial nicotine products like JUUL or Blu or the like.

So, I think your concern is a tad misplaced.
 
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brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
5,092
390
126
That research isn't saying what you think it is.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16177026

Monoamine oxidase inhibition dramatically increases the motivation to self-administer nicotine in rats.

Nicotine is the major neuroactive compound of tobacco, which has, by itself, weak reinforcing properties. It is known that levels of the enzymes monoamine oxidase A (MAO-A) and MAO-B are reduced in the platelets and brains of smokers and that substances, other than nicotine, present in tobacco smoke have MAO-inhibitory activities. Here, we report that inhibition of MAO dramatically and specifically increases the motivation to self-administer nicotine in rats. These effects were more prominent in rats selected for high responsiveness to novelty than in rats with low responsiveness to novelty. The results suggest that the inhibition of MAO activity by compounds present in tobacco smoke may combine with nicotine to produce the intense reinforcing properties of cigarette smoking that lead to addiction.
Smokeless tobacco?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
27,025
587
126
E-cigs have been around since 2000, in the US since 2008. And yes, this appears to be a cluster where the liquids were contaminated with something. I've been vaping since I quit smoking in early 2010, quite a lot actually, and I have no lung issues. My lung health is vastly better than it was a decade ago when I smoked.

Juul is correct. According to bulk of the research out there, e-cigs are safer than cigarettes.
The problem with saying according to the research id that the FDA says otherwise...….
Then a representative of JUUL was caught saying at a school that eCigs are perfectly safe....s.ay what?? Perfectly safe!
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
26,167
2,958
126
if 30 year olds are dying from vaping its not safer then smoking. Sorry. We knew this years ago btw. The fda is clearly shit...


Industrial inhalants
There are many industrial inhalants that are known to cause various types of bronchiolitis, including bronchiolitis obliterans.[15]

Industrial workers who have presented with bronchiolitis:


  • nylon-flock workers[14]
  • workers who spray prints onto textiles with polyamide-amine dyes[14]
  • battery workers who are exposed to thionyl chloride fumes
  • workers at plants that use or manufacture flavorings, e.g. diacetyl butter-like flavoring [7][14][16]

popcorn lung was named for the flavoring manufacture. Its the same oil people are vaping. We live in a hellscape...

 

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