FBI Targets Political Demonstrators

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
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http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_5041.shtml

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has been questioning political demonstrators across the country, and in rare cases even subpoenaing them, in an aggressive effort to forestall what officials say could be violent and disruptive protests at the Republican National Convention in New York.

F.B.I. officials are urging agents to canvass their communities for information about planned disruptions aimed at the convention and other coming political events, and they say they have developed a list of people who they think may have information about possible violence. They say the inquiries, which began last month before the Democratic convention in Boston, are focused solely on possible crimes, not on dissent, at major political events.

But some people contacted by the F.B.I. say they are mystified by the bureau's interest and felt harassed by questions about their political plans.

"The message I took from it," said Sarah Bardwell, 21, an intern at a Denver antiwar group who was visited by six investigators a few weeks ago, "was that they were trying to intimidate us into not going to any protests and to let us know that, 'hey, we're watching you.' ''

The unusual initiative comes after the Justice Department, in a previously undisclosed legal opinion, gave its blessing to controversial tactics used last year by the F.B.I in urging local police departments to report suspicious activity at political and antiwar demonstrations to counterterrorism squads. The F.B.I. bulletins that relayed the request for help detailed tactics used by demonstrators - everything from violent resistance to Internet fund-raising and recruitment.

In an internal complaint, an F.B.I. employee charged that the bulletins improperly blurred the line between lawfully protected speech and illegal activity. But the Justice Department's Office of Legal Policy, in a five-page internal analysis obtained by The New York Times, disagreed.

The office, which also made headlines in June in an opinion - since disavowed - that authorized the use of torture against terrorism suspects in some circumstances, said any First Amendment impact posed by the F.B.I.'s monitoring of the political protests was negligible and constitutional.

The opinion said: "Given the limited nature of such public monitoring, any possible 'chilling' effect caused by the bulletins would be quite minimal and substantially outweighed by the public interest in maintaining safety and order during large-scale demonstrations."

Those same concerns are now central to the vigorous efforts by the F.B.I. to identify possible disruptions by anarchists, violent demonstrators and others at the Republican National Convention, which begins Aug. 30 and is expected to draw hundreds of thousands of protesters.

In the last few weeks, beginning before the Democratic convention, F.B.I. counterterrorism agents and other federal and local officers have sought to interview dozens of people in at least six states, including past protesters and their friends and family members, about possible violence at the two conventions. In addition, three young men in Missouri said they were trailed by federal agents for several days and subpoenaed to testify before a federal grand jury last month, forcing them to cancel their trip to Boston to take part in a protest there that same day.

Interrogations have generally covered the same three questions, according to some of those questioned and their lawyers: were demonstrators planning violence or other disruptions, did they know anyone who was, and did they realize it was a crime to withhold such information.

A handful of protesters at the Boston convention were arrested but there were no major disruptions. Concerns have risen for the Republican convention, however, because of antiwar demonstrations directed at President Bush and because of New York City's global prominence.

With the F.B.I. given more authority after the Sept. 11 attacks to monitor public events, the tensions over the convention protests, coupled with the Justice Department's own legal analysis of such monitoring, reflect the fine line between protecting national security in an age of terrorism and discouraging political expression.

F.B.I. officials, mindful of the bureau's abuses in the 1960's and 1970's monitoring political dissidents like the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., say they are confident their agents have not crossed that line in the lead-up to the conventions.

"The F.B.I. isn't in the business of chilling anyone's First Amendment rights," said Joe Parris, a bureau spokesman in Washington. "But criminal behavior isn't covered by the First Amendment. What we're concerned about are injuries to convention participants, injuries to citizens, injuries to police and first responders."

F.B.I. officials would not say how many people had been interviewed in recent weeks, how they were identified or what spurred the bureau's interest.

They said the initiative was part of a broader, nationwide effort to follow any leads pointing to possible violence or illegal disruptions in connection with the political conventions, presidential debates or the November election, which come at a time of heightened concern about a possible terrorist attack.

F.B.I. officials in Washington have urged field offices around the country in recent weeks to redouble their efforts to interview sources and gather information that might help to detect criminal plots. The only lead to emerge publicly resulted in a warning to authorities before the Boston convention that anarchists or other domestic groups might bomb news vans there. It is not clear whether there was an actual plot.

The individuals visited in recent weeks "are people that we identified that could reasonably be expected to have knowledge of such plans and plots if they existed," Mr. Parris said.

"We vetted down a list and went out and knocked on doors and had a laundry list of questions to ask about possible criminal behavior," he added. "No one was dragged from their homes and put under bright lights. The interviewees were free to talk to us or close the door in our faces."

But civil rights advocates argued that the visits amounted to harassment. They said they saw the interrogations as part of a pattern of increasingly aggressive tactics by federal investigators in combating domestic terrorism. In an episode in February in Iowa, federal prosecutors subpoenaed Drake University for records on the sponsor of a campus antiwar forum. The demand was dropped after a community outcry.

Protest leaders and civil rights advocates who have monitored the recent interrogations said they believed at least 40 or 50 people, and perhaps many more, had been contacted by federal agents about demonstration plans and possible violence surrounding the conventions and other political events.

"This kind of pressure has a real chilling effect on perfectly legitimate political activity," said Mark Silverstein, legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union of Colorado, where two groups of political activists in Denver and a third in Fort Collins were visited by the F.B.I. "People are going to be afraid to go to a demonstration or even sign a petition if they justifiably believe that will result in your having an F.B.I. file opened on you."

The issue is a particularly sensitive one in Denver, where the police agreed last year to restrictions on local intelligence-gathering operations after it was disclosed that the police had kept files on some 3,000 people and 200 groups involved in protests.

But the inquiries have stirred opposition elsewhere as well.

In New York, federal agents recently questioned a man whose neighbor reported he had made threatening comments against the president. He and a lawyer, Jeffrey Fogel, agreed to talk to the Secret Service, denying the accusation and blaming it on a feud with the neighbor. But when agents started to question the man about his political affiliations and whether he planned to attend convention protests, "that's when I said no, no, no, we're not going to answer those kinds of questions," said Mr. Fogel, who is legal director for the Center for Constitutional Rights in New York.

In the case of the three young men subpoenaed in Missouri, Denise Lieberman, legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union in St. Louis, which is representing them, said they scrapped plans to attend both the Boston and the New York conventions after they were questioned about possible violence.

The men are all in their early 20's, Ms. Lieberman said, but she would not identify them.

All three have taken part in past protests over American foreign policy and in planning meetings for convention demonstrations. She said two of them were arrested before on misdemeanor charges for what she described as minor civil disobedience at protests.

Prosecutors have now informed the men that they are targets of a domestic terrorism investigation, Ms. Lieberman said, but have not disclosed the basis for their suspicions. "They won't tell me," she said.

Federal officials in St. Louis and Washington declined to comment on the case. Ms. Lieberman insisted that the men "didn't have any plans to participate in the violence, but what's so disturbing about all this is the pre-emptive nature - stopping them from participating in a protest before anything even happened."

The three men "were really shaken and frightened by all this," she said, "and they got the message loud and clear that if you make plans to go to a protest, you could be subject to arrest or a visit from the F.B.I."


Welcome to the Bush police state. Disagree with the King and be prepared to know that thet know.
 

CrazyHelloDeli

Platinum Member
Jun 24, 2001
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Personally, I cant think of anything worse than the FBI wanting to make sure protests not turn violent. I mean, in a free society we should be able to throw rocks, molatov cocktails, riot, loot, and overturn cars if we want. Damn Police State taking away our freedom!

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 

crazycarl

Senior member
Jun 8, 2004
548
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I used to hang out with Chris Riederer (who lives with Baldwell I guess). yea
well what do you expect? they are already arresting people who try to go to Bush rallies or speeches who are wearing anti-Bush t-shirts.
 

MoFunk

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2000
4,058
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One of the head organisers was on Hannity today and he kept asking her if they were going to stress with the protestors to keep things peacefull and she kept avoiding an answer. So I take that as they want to turn this into another 68 Chicago
 

Tusce

Junior Member
Aug 15, 2004
9
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Ugh. Just...ugh, with a side of ugh.

'Threat' is an opinion. One with many different levels at that.

It's also a state of mind, but we're not going to go there :)
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
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Hannity, lol.

Innocent until proven guilty. Since when does the Justice Dept. send the FBI around to stifle dissent? Sounds like the Gustopo to me.
 

syzygy

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2001
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Originally posted by: Tusce
Ugh. Just...ugh, with a side of ugh.

'Threat' is an opinion. One with many different levels at that.

It's also a state of mind, but we're not going to go there :)

'threat' is not an opinion. don't be so naive. the fbi and local police must have cased these
miscreants and know a thing or two about what they intend from past performances. they
are fooling no one . . uh . . at least no one with any sense.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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Let the protesters burn down NYC for all I care, that will show those evil Republicans who's boss. Gotta get rid of Bush, any means necessary, it's the most important election in our lives after all. And besides, NY is a blue state anyway, I bet the Republicans wish they could do themselves, the protesters would really just be doing them a favor and Dick Cheney will revel in the destruction of those liberal Manhattan scum. Plus violent protests and blowing sh!t up will certainly make the undecideds realize they should vote for Kerry, so it'll be worth it. I know when I see stuff like that I think "man, that's why I have to vote Democrat this time."
 
Apr 14, 2004
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Remember the woman who had the "My abortion hurt me" sign? Or the gay protestors at the phillies game who were kicked out? Better to keep protesters away so they don't cause problems and riots.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
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nterrogations have generally covered the same three questions, according to some of those questioned and their lawyers: were demonstrators planning violence or other disruptions, did they know anyone who was, and did they realize it was a crime to withhold such information.

I'm sure that basically asking "Are you about to commit a crime?" is a proven investigative technique. I bet people screw up all the time and say "Yes!". Many crimes must get nipped in the bud with this innovative interrogation style.

The above is sarcastic. I can see no crime prevention value in such questions, only intimidation. If they ever interview me, I think I'll do like people did during the witch hunts and give the names of people I don't like as possible evil-doers. I'll be sure to ask if there are any rewards for providing names too.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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I bet a lot of those whom they are questioning belong to Anarchist groups, the same who always have violent demonstrations at of the WTO meetings.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,504
566
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A bunch of these people have been shouting off their mouths about the kind of activities they are planning.

Chaos

Destruction

Disorder

The Constitution does not guarantee the right to those three things...so if they try those things then they deserve to all get the smack down done to them.

I think if it becomes a chaotic mess then all they will end up doing is re-electing Bush.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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Holy crooked Agnew, Batman !

Sounds like someone is channeling the 'Spirit of Milhous'.

Could it be Satan ?
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
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I have an idea. Why don't they just arrest the protesters that do something wrong?

Does the FBI interview every gun owner randomly just in case they want to shoot someone?
Does the FBI fly to random Arab-American homes and ... never mind.
Does the FBI interview random inner-city black males just in case they will sell drugs?
Does the FBI interview white males in the south just in case they will join the radical hate groups?


This is horse sh!t and you guys know it. The Justice Dept ordered this, the same fools who ok'ed torture. Ashcroft has complete contempt for any protesters or dissenters, why does this surprise you?
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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I have a hard time feeling any empathy for these Anarchists. Their whole purpose is to cause disturbances which would distract the security forces put in place to thwart any terrorist attacks.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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In most places you have to have a permit to put on a demonstration and can be arrested for causing civil disorder and disturbing the peace.

I am all for beating people with billy clubs and using Tear gas or pepper spray on them.

It is odd that some people are professional protesters and they do it for a living.


They get paid to protest!
 

onelove

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2001
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folks, this is the FBI interviewing these potential protesters. the basis of their inquiry?:
have developed a list of people who they think may have information about possible violence

this is not an investigation into a conspiracy (arguably a proper function for the FBI), this is a state apparatus being used to stymie dissent by pulling people aside for "we're watching you" interviews. your civil rights are being eroded. Yes, even yours, you rush-limbaugh-wanna-bes.

Way back behind us, there was a line that was crossed and now we have gone way the fvck over it.
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,504
566
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Originally posted by: onelove
folks, this is the FBI interviewing these potential protesters. the basis of their inquiry?:
have developed a list of people who they think may have information about possible violence

this is not an investigation into a conspiracy (arguably a proper function for the FBI), this is a state apparatus being used to stymie dissent by pulling people aside for "we're watching you" interviews. your civil rights are being eroded. Yes, even yours, you rush-limbaugh-wanna-bes.

Way back behind us, there was a line that was crossed and now we have gone way the fvck over it.

You could classify the entire war on terror, the entire secret service, the entire CIA under this premise.

When dumbasses say they are going to creat chaos and destruction....guess what...they are going to raise flags.

Like I said...if these nut jobs do what they say they are going to do...then they will hand the re-election to Bush.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
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Originally posted by: Todd33
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_5041.shtml

The three men "were really shaken and frightened by all this," she said, "and they got the message loud and clear that if you make plans to go to a protest, you could be subject to arrest or a visit from the F.B.I."

Uh, or perhaps the the message they should have gotten was that if you are planning to go to a protest and you have a record of being arrested for misdemeanor charges at protests, then you might be subject to investigation and questioning.

Oh Noes! Teh horrors of it all! Might as well burn the constitution now! :roll:

I'll be the first to agree that our civil liberties are slowly coming in danger of being encroached upon, but I hardly think this article describes a smoking gun. If you are a possible troublemaker (or even if you are not) and are going to be attending a huge, public event, it is not a violation of any of your rights to be asked questions. There were no handcuffs, holding cells, bright lights, testicular vices, electified nipple-clamps, etc, present, or at least the article didn't mention any.

In the case of the three young men subpoenaed in Missouri, Denise Lieberman, legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union in St. Louis, which is representing them, said they scrapped plans to attend both the Boston and the New York conventions after they were questioned about possible violence.
This kind of scares me. They were planning a protest, the FBI questions them about their intentions, and they decide not to go after all? That sounds mighty suspicious. Were they planning something or did they have knowledge that something was going to happen, but didn't want to be present if they knew they were under investigation? Sounds fishy to me. Not enough to arrest them (they weren't), but certainly enough to LEGALLY watch them.

I don't see the big deal here. There are probably REAL incidents of Civil Liberties being trampled upon by our government, this is not one of them. OH WAIT! This could be traced back to the RNC! It's all an evil NEOCON plot (winks at dmcowen674). I see why this was posted now..
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
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if these nut jobs do what they say they are going to do

You assume to much and show you bias calling them nut jobs. Is anyone that protest was a nut job? Should they be investigated? Do you have proof that the FBI has info that they announced something? Most of the people coming forward with stories have no criminal background and are not radicals. If you like the fact that government agencies are harassing your fellow citizens because it somehow supports your man Bush, you are sick. I can't wait until the Democrats are in the White House and send the FBI to investigate all the anti-Kerry people who talk crap in web forums or go to a protest. This country is founded on freedoms, not just yours, but also views that differ from yours. If the KKK can march down main street, anti-Bush folks can too.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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O.K. - then WHO is paying these people - the 'Anarchists' to protest ?

The last two times that there were confirmed 'Paid Protesters' were:
1) The Democratic Convention in 1968,
and they were paid bu the GOP to disrupt the convention.
2) The Florida recounts. again paid for (and bused in) by the GOP.
The Recount Protest was organized by Marc Raciot
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
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Do you mean when Lon Cheney errr Dick Cheney came to my hometown (not more than 1/2 mile from my house), I could've went over there, protested and gotten paid cash???? Wow, what a nice gig. Plus, I could've had Gillian Anderson X-File me. Woot!

If the second part was true, well ummm.... I'll leave that to your imagination. ;)




On a serious note, unless they cause some sort of commotion, then protesters should be allowed to protest. Hold up your signs and whatnot, that's cool. But don't make a scene, it's just rude. But then again, rudeness was never against the law. So why the FBI? Trying to assassinate the President? Oh please, terrorist organizations LOVE Bush. Their recruitment efforts have been made so much easier with him in power.
 

cKGunslinger

Lifer
Nov 29, 1999
16,408
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Originally posted by: Todd33
I have an idea. Why don't they just arrest the protesters that do something wrong?
Farking brilliiant! Why do the police even carry guns? They should just carry a sketch book or a camera. That way, when someone actually commits a crime, they can photo the criminal, THEN they can send someone after them. Why try to protect anyone?

So, if I put a gun in your face and said, "I'm going to pull this trigger in 3, 2, " you would not want a law enforcement agent to stop me? After all, maybe I'm just a practical joker. That's not illegal. You are violating my civil liberties! :roll:

No one was "arrested" in your article. I read they damn thing 4 times, just to make sure I wasn't missing it. Stop inflating things to serve your agenda. Stick to the facts.