I know Bush made a fortune on an insider stock trade and another fortune on a public funded stadium, and stole the presidency, but I'm not sure he's become a traitor, or rather that kind of traitor for money, so don't be too sure Clinton, whose theft is miniscule by comparison, would either.
Tominator: Yes, there are other reasons why US military aviation is superior to the Russians, but the fact remains that their aircraft designers have been consistently among the best in the world. To some, arguably they are the best in the world. What US fighter can do a hammerhead stall?
As for Mir, it served WELL beyond its intended life and has provided the essential data to even attempt to build the ISS. Also, without Russia's heavy lift rockets, there wouldn't BE an ISS. The shuttle is a cute toy, and an amazingly expensive one, but Russia's rockets are cheaper, faster, and more reliable. FACT. Perhaps the Soviets did lose 35 cosmonauts -- how many US test pilots and astronauts have died? Four in the Apollo fire (or three? can't recall) plus eight in the Challenger accident plus however many test pilots testing various aircraft. There's death on both sides.
Regardless, the points I made go against the assertion that the Russians are a bunch of morons -- far from it. They kept the US dancing for close to fifty years during the Cold War and bloodied our noses badly in Korea and Vietnam by helping other regimes do the damage (and outright attacks by fighter pilots).
Your estimation of Patty is perfect.
Windogg: Thanks for the info on titanium. I remember reading an article many years ago about the Russians' ability to work with the metal to a greater degree than Western metallurgists, but I didn't know the specifics beyond that.
As for Mir, it served WELL beyond its intended life and has provided the essential data to even attempt to build the ISS. Also, without Russia's heavy lift rockets, there wouldn't BE an ISS. The shuttle is a cute toy, and an amazingly expensive one, but Russia's rockets are cheaper, faster, and more reliable. FACT. Perhaps the Soviets did lose 35 cosmonauts -- how many US test pilots and astronauts have died? Four in the Apollo fire (or three? can't recall) plus eight in the Challenger accident plus however many test pilots testing various aircraft. There's death on both sides.
Regardless, the points I made go against the assertion that the Russians are a bunch of morons -- far from it. They kept the US dancing for close to fifty years during the Cold War and bloodied our noses badly in Korea and Vietnam by helping other regimes do the damage (and outright attacks by fighter pilots).
Your estimation of Patty is perfect.
Windogg: Thanks for the info on titanium. I remember reading an article many years ago about the Russians' ability to work with the metal to a greater degree than Western metallurgists, but I didn't know the specifics beyond that.
OutHouse
Lifer
- Jun 5, 2000
- 36,410
- 616
- 126
first off Turd... you have no clue on what it means to be an American. You act like the spy was caught passing a love note to his wife. I just dont understand your liberal mind set. The spy was an American in a high position and we as the american people put trust in people in his position. Not only did he betray his country by spying for Russia but he betrayed the trust of all American citizens.
Lets see if you understand this. Most of the world governments hate America. They would love to see our union fall and have our great land turned into independent fifedoms that fight each other.
If your treasonus ass is so will to sell out your country for money the i say get out and live someplace else. Go sell their secrets for money and then come back and try to convince us that it isnt a crime.
your one pathethic looser!
GET OUT SCUM!
Lets see if you understand this. Most of the world governments hate America. They would love to see our union fall and have our great land turned into independent fifedoms that fight each other.
If your treasonus ass is so will to sell out your country for money the i say get out and live someplace else. Go sell their secrets for money and then come back and try to convince us that it isnt a crime.
your one pathethic looser!
GET OUT SCUM!
He needs to be executed.
Two Russian double agents were executed by USSR because of his leaks. Granted, they were of course traitors against USSR. But this guy is a traitor against the US, so he deserves the same punishment that he exposed those two guys too. And whoever exposed him to Americans should be executed by Russia if caught. Those are the stakes. If you are a traitor against your country, and someone dies because of your treason, you are dead meat.
Two Russian double agents were executed by USSR because of his leaks. Granted, they were of course traitors against USSR. But this guy is a traitor against the US, so he deserves the same punishment that he exposed those two guys too. And whoever exposed him to Americans should be executed by Russia if caught. Those are the stakes. If you are a traitor against your country, and someone dies because of your treason, you are dead meat.
<< They would love to see our union fall and have our great land turned into independent fifedoms that fight each other. >>
I would not be surprised to see this happen in the not-too-distant-future. Then the question will be, which side will you ally with, and which side will you sell out?
This whole discussion has brought an interesting thought to mind. For those of you who are vehemently anti-Bush: If you had had the chance to insinuate yourself into the higher ranks of Bush's party and report things back to Gore that would ensure Gore's succession to the Presidency, would you have? Would you have been willing to play the part of a double agent in the election to make sure that your favorite candidate won? Just something to think about...
It's people like those in this thread that make me and every other man or woman whom has served in our armed forces wonder exactly what we're protecting anymore! WTH is wrong with you? I suppose Hitler just had a few bad years then too huh? Saddaam........just "cranky" for the last decade? Heck.......let's just pardon everyone and live on love huh?
Treason (as opposed to mere espionage) involves committing grave acts against ones own country. Betrayal + espionage = aggravating circumstances requiring the deterrent and justifying the sanction of the death penalty. The Soviets understood that, and Americans used to. Traitors should be fried like we did the Rosenbergs. I bet the guy cuts a deal (with the substantial leverage his knowledge gives him) but I'd like to see him snuffed as a learning aid to anyone who wishes to emulate him.
I hope he rots away.....rats slowly gnawing away soft portions of his anatomy while he watches...helpless. I'm not the biggest patriot out there, but being a traitor to one's country the lowest act of a coward.
As far as our country being hated uniformly around the world, I wonder why, then, that our embassies having to turn away applicants seeking emigration to this "terrible" country. I don't see lines of people outside foreign embassies in this country seeking emigration. Yet, you can routinely see long lines of people outside US embassies seeking to come here.
As far as our country being hated uniformly around the world, I wonder why, then, that our embassies having to turn away applicants seeking emigration to this "terrible" country. I don't see lines of people outside foreign embassies in this country seeking emigration. Yet, you can routinely see long lines of people outside US embassies seeking to come here.
i'm sorry, he sold US info to a foreign power, he should be SEVERLY reprimanded, and if that means death, then so be it,
AndrewR
Just makin' sure you hadn't 'gone over!'
The US has the only fighter never to be beaten in combat. Our superiorty lies in the investment of the training of our troops and investment in technology. We've beaten the Ruskies, but if every new technology were shared we would pay dearly in the future.
Moonbeam..you know nothin'! And in this thread, that's obvious...:frown:
Just makin' sure you hadn't 'gone over!'
The US has the only fighter never to be beaten in combat. Our superiorty lies in the investment of the training of our troops and investment in technology. We've beaten the Ruskies, but if every new technology were shared we would pay dearly in the future.
Moonbeam..you know nothin'! And in this thread, that's obvious...:frown:
Wasn't this FBI Catholic? I wonder how much the old Holy Roman Empire influenced his decision to betray the trust of the nation that he swore to serve.
Sure, MIR outlived its expectancy, but look at Voyager 2 or Pioneer 10. Those have been up 20~30 years and we still can contact them to recieve data. I would say that is pretty good design. You guys are also forgetting that this spy had 2 people killed back in Russia for turning in their names. I would also say leaving a pack of classified documents in the park and $50,000 laying around is pretty strong evidence.
<<<I don't know anyone so patriotic or so rich that they don't have a price.>>>
You are right I have a price and it is my life.
When I signed enlistment papers many years ago I thought we are at peace Serve, Learn and go on. But I did realize that I could be called upon to give my life for the freedom we all enjoy. Well I was not called to action like some others were while I was serving. While in Okinawa, Japan a known terrorist on the island. We spent several weeks on guard duty. We were to walk the post with weapon loaded and round chambered and orders to shoot first and ask questions later. I remember my hand sweating so much I was afraid I might drop the pistol and it go off. I knew that wouldnt happen though because they would have to pry my cold dead hand from I was griping it so hard. This may not sound like a big deal to you but it makes the hair stand on my neck just typing this. Even though i knew that first day it was possible for a situation such as this, I just didn't think I would have to do that. But I knew if it came down to it, it was him or me. I was going to do my best to make sure it was him.
I would ask you if you knew what freedom is and why do we still have it today. But after seeing your first post I can clearly see you don't have a clue.
People like Hanssens are a threat to anyone serving our country or who is, how do you say, patriotic. I guess if the reds attacked it would be like homecomming for you. I think he should swing and hang for several days as a monument for comunist sympathizers. I don't care if he was selling from the civil war.
SemperFi
You are right I have a price and it is my life.
When I signed enlistment papers many years ago I thought we are at peace Serve, Learn and go on. But I did realize that I could be called upon to give my life for the freedom we all enjoy. Well I was not called to action like some others were while I was serving. While in Okinawa, Japan a known terrorist on the island. We spent several weeks on guard duty. We were to walk the post with weapon loaded and round chambered and orders to shoot first and ask questions later. I remember my hand sweating so much I was afraid I might drop the pistol and it go off. I knew that wouldnt happen though because they would have to pry my cold dead hand from I was griping it so hard. This may not sound like a big deal to you but it makes the hair stand on my neck just typing this. Even though i knew that first day it was possible for a situation such as this, I just didn't think I would have to do that. But I knew if it came down to it, it was him or me. I was going to do my best to make sure it was him.
I would ask you if you knew what freedom is and why do we still have it today. But after seeing your first post I can clearly see you don't have a clue.
People like Hanssens are a threat to anyone serving our country or who is, how do you say, patriotic. I guess if the reds attacked it would be like homecomming for you. I think he should swing and hang for several days as a monument for comunist sympathizers. I don't care if he was selling from the civil war.
SemperFi
Your first post:
So they caught Hanssens selling info to the Russians. Is this really so bad?
Your second:
You've not only believe the 75% falseities in the news, but you already have found the guy guilty, and ready to kill him. This is how lynch mobs start. This fellow has already pleaded NOT GUILTY and until we hear his side of the story, you should stop making judgement from the lies and exaggerations the newspapers spread. Your the idiot. Do you judge everyone before you hear both sides?
Just for clarification, what exactly is your stance when it comes to him? You seem to contradict yourself between your two posts; in the first one you act like you believe that he is guilty, and try to justify it by saying that he had a family to feed. In the second, you call everyone idiots for believing the news, and to wait for the trial before judgement. You seem to be flip-flopping just to piss people on this forum off. If thats your aim, then your the real idiot.
So they caught Hanssens selling info to the Russians. Is this really so bad?
Your second:
You've not only believe the 75% falseities in the news, but you already have found the guy guilty, and ready to kill him. This is how lynch mobs start. This fellow has already pleaded NOT GUILTY and until we hear his side of the story, you should stop making judgement from the lies and exaggerations the newspapers spread. Your the idiot. Do you judge everyone before you hear both sides?
Just for clarification, what exactly is your stance when it comes to him? You seem to contradict yourself between your two posts; in the first one you act like you believe that he is guilty, and try to justify it by saying that he had a family to feed. In the second, you call everyone idiots for believing the news, and to wait for the trial before judgement. You seem to be flip-flopping just to piss people on this forum off. If thats your aim, then your the real idiot.
He took and oath and signed documents saying that upon pain of death (literally), that he would not reveal secrets.
I've signed them myself and I haven't broken the agreement, because I SWORE that I wouldn't. That does still mean something these days.
I've signed them myself and I haven't broken the agreement, because I SWORE that I wouldn't. That does still mean something these days.
Just a bump so the turd could answer a few of the latest questions. What did he do, crawl back under his rock?
Lets not bring morality into this issue (unless you believe morality has physical borders). The fact is every country does this, including us. We martyrize russian double agents for their actions. And if you believe that the US has never killed one of its own double agents, then you're pretty naive. The CIA isn't some humanitarian organization (they never should be).
If you leave out political ideology from these cases, this guy is no different than the spys that we recruit. IF they are at the gates of heaven, they will receive the same judgement. This guy deserves the same punishment that his Russian counterparts got, but not because of right and wrong.
If you leave out political ideology from these cases, this guy is no different than the spys that we recruit. IF they are at the gates of heaven, they will receive the same judgement. This guy deserves the same punishment that his Russian counterparts got, but not because of right and wrong.
One of the most famous double agents was Col. Oleg Penkovsky of the KGB who supplied details of the Soviet military capability to the West before and into the period of the Cuban missile crisis.
He was caught and executed by the Soviets. Quoting from "The Spy who saved the world";
"Strapped to a stretcher, Penkovsky was wheeled into the Moscow city crematorium chamber. An attendent opens the furnace door and two others start to push the stretcher and its contents into the roaring furnace; the flame is already licking the screaming man's soles. At this point a voice comes over the loudspeaker interrupting the procedure because another body is scheduled for this time slot. Screaming, but unable to kick, Penkovsky is pulled back, another body arrives and after a small ceremony is pushed into the furnace. The voice over the loudspeaker comes again; now it is Penkovsky's turn, and in he goes."
In matters of law, precedent is all important.
He was caught and executed by the Soviets. Quoting from "The Spy who saved the world";
"Strapped to a stretcher, Penkovsky was wheeled into the Moscow city crematorium chamber. An attendent opens the furnace door and two others start to push the stretcher and its contents into the roaring furnace; the flame is already licking the screaming man's soles. At this point a voice comes over the loudspeaker interrupting the procedure because another body is scheduled for this time slot. Screaming, but unable to kick, Penkovsky is pulled back, another body arrives and after a small ceremony is pushed into the furnace. The voice over the loudspeaker comes again; now it is Penkovsky's turn, and in he goes."
In matters of law, precedent is all important.
We don't only have to worry about Russia having this info. They are needing money and they have friends that are our enemies. Most (not all) of those enemies don't have the ability to launch a warhead over 500 yards. Once these places have the technology, our homeland is at risk for long range nuclear attack, Biochem etc...
Our safety has been greatly compromised by China gaining the information for our missile tech (Thanks Bill). Until Uncle Bill "gave" them the technology, they were unable to launch multi stage rockets. Now they can. They can reach Kansas with a nuke if they want. Yes, I know, they would get toasted by us in the process but I would rather not have nukes hit here.
I guess to answer your question.... Yes, he did something wrong. He provided a financially unstable government that is not our closest friend with information that can be used to severely cause great harm to us.
Our safety has been greatly compromised by China gaining the information for our missile tech (Thanks Bill). Until Uncle Bill "gave" them the technology, they were unable to launch multi stage rockets. Now they can. They can reach Kansas with a nuke if they want. Yes, I know, they would get toasted by us in the process but I would rather not have nukes hit here.
I guess to answer your question.... Yes, he did something wrong. He provided a financially unstable government that is not our closest friend with information that can be used to severely cause great harm to us.
they were unable to launch multi stage rockets
I thought the technolgy hat was alegelly stolen was the W88 miniture war head. China had to capability to launch multistage rockets from their space program (most likely gotten help from the russians). Nevertheless, I can see your point. However, this MTA (mutal destruction assurance) has been one of the few arms control measures that worked. I would like to debate with you, but please leave these half truths at home.
I thought the technolgy hat was alegelly stolen was the W88 miniture war head. China had to capability to launch multistage rockets from their space program (most likely gotten help from the russians). Nevertheless, I can see your point. However, this MTA (mutal destruction assurance) has been one of the few arms control measures that worked. I would like to debate with you, but please leave these half truths at home.
Actually it was uncle bill that gave them the technology for their space program. Without the approval of congress I might add. I believe this happened in his first term.
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