FBI- No terror intent in men who had 1000 cellphones.

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
I am amazed that I seem to be the only one here who is curious as to WHY these guys had 1000 phones that they bought three at a time and paid cash for. (I know they only bought 80 at the Wal-Mart but I'm assuming they bought the other phones the same way)

That doesn't raise a red flag for anyone here?

They are operating a cash only business. Why?

What are they doing with the money? Is this a clever profit scheme or are they forwarding cash to mosques and "relief"organizations that serve as fronts for terrorist funding?

Are they filing tax returns on this money?

Where are they getting the money to buy the phones?

Am I the only one here who has these questions bouncing around in my head?

Normal, everyday people don't behave this way. They don't have hundreds of cell phones parted out in the back of a van. Why did these guys?


I can't believe these questions aren't popping up in your heads.

Why is it your business? Unless you can demonstrate that they were doing something wrong, they are free to do whatever the hell they want...that's what it means to live in a free society. I don't have to go around explaining my every action to "concerned citizens" and overenthusiastic cops, and neither do you.

I'm not asking people to explain their every action... But when something pops out that is this out of the ordinary I think someone has the right to ask. If they had been caught with $100k in the van they would have been forced to prove how they got the money.

Nobody needs 1000 phones. They should have to explain that.

 

[cumhail]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
I am amazed that I seem to be the only one here who is curious as to WHY these guys had 1000 phones that they bought three at a time and paid cash for. (I know they only bought 80 at the Wal-Mart but I'm assuming they bought the other phones the same way)

That doesn't raise a red flag for anyone here?

They are operating a cash only business. Why?

What are they doing with the money? Is this a clever profit scheme or are they forwarding cash to mosques and "relief"organizations that serve as fronts for terrorist funding?

Are they filing tax returns on this money?

Where are they getting the money to buy the phones?

Am I the only one here who has these questions bouncing around in my head?

Normal, everyday people don't behave this way. They don't have hundreds of cell phones parted out in the back of a van. Why did these guys?


I can't believe these questions aren't popping up in your heads.

Go to the Hot Deals forum here on Anandtech, along with the ones at FW, SD, and other sites... should the biggest resellers and ebayers there all be arrested, as well? Or just the ones who are ay-rabs?

 

[episodic]

So, the well funded terrorists with access to billions of oil profits have to resort to a 20$ tracfone for a detonator?

 

[alchemize]

edit: Oh I see - techs assumed that because they weren't associated with any known terrorist groups that they had no intent.

Apparently they had enough evidence to be charged "collecting or providing materials for terrorist acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes."

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: alchemize
edit: Oh I see - techs assumed that because they weren't associated with any known terrorist groups that they had no intent.

Apparently they had enough evidence to be charged "collecting or providing materials for terrorist acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes."

They were charged b/c
1) they were Arab-looking men
2) they exceeded the secret cellphone quota

Reasonable people would say that's not evidence . . . it's hysteria.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: alchemize
edit: Oh I see - techs assumed that because they weren't associated with any known terrorist groups that they had no intent.

Apparently they had enough evidence to be charged "collecting or providing materials for terrorist acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes."

They were charged b/c
1) they were Arab-looking men
2) they exceeded the secret cellphone quota

Reasonable people would say that's not evidence . . . it's hysteria.

I see you have connections with the DA? :roll:

I love it when partisans like you, the OP, and other leftists draw conclusions pooh poohing every arrest and every case ever posted, even when attacks actually occur. It's so cute, but sometimes it does bring a bit of bile up.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: alchemize
edit: Oh I see - techs assumed that because they weren't associated with any known terrorist groups that they had no intent.

Apparently they had enough evidence to be charged "collecting or providing materials for terrorist acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes."

They were charged b/c
1) they were Arab-looking men
2) they exceeded the secret cellphone quota

Reasonable people would say that's not evidence . . . it's hysteria.

I see you have connections with the DA? :roll:

I love it when partisans like you, the OP, and other leftists draw conclusions pooh poohing every arrest and every case ever posted, even when attacks actually occur. It's so cute, but sometimes it does bring a bit of bile up.

Did you read the link in the OP?
1) The police were called b/c the clerk noted Arab men were buying a bunch of cellphones.

Adham Abdelhamid Othman, 21, of Dallas, and Maruan Awad Muhareb, 18, and Louai Abdelhamied Othman, 23, both of Mesquite, Texas, were stopped by police Friday outside a Wal-Mart store in Caro, about 80 miles north of Detroit after employees became suspicious when they purchased about 80 cell phones.

2) Additional evidence preceding arrest . . . exactly.
3) What happened after the arrest

Local prosecutors charged them with collecting or providing materials for terrorist acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes.

4) What happened after they started looking for evidence

Also, a prosecutor in a separate Ohio case said he can't prove a terrorism link between two men arrested after buying large numbers of cell phones and won't proceed for now with terrorism charges against them.

If you are having trouble with bile, I think you should visit your regular doctor for a referral to a gastroenterologist. Then again if it's just weariness over our 'state of turrurist fearmongering' . . . you should consider a reality pill.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
There isn't any way to win in this situation...

1. We detain them till we find out what they are up to - they aren't up to anything illegal so we let them go. People cry "Racial Profiling" "Fascist State" blah blah blah...

2. We don't do anything because buying phones in bulk isn't illegal - then something happens and the cries of "We knew about these activities yet we did NOTHING" come out.

We've already seen what happens when you use option #2. Why do we have to wait until after the tragedy to employ our 20/20 hindsight? It is not against the law to be detained by the police for a brief period of time and held without charges. In this case the situation was suspicious enough to warrant detention until it could be determined what was going on.

Seriously, if you saw a van load of arab men with 1000 cell phones you wouldn't report that? If you saw a group of people buying up pre-paid cell phones in bulk you wouldn't report that either?

If I saw a guy buying 4-5 phones... ok, maybe he's outfitting his family. But when he buys 80 phones, with cash and in such a way that it won't trigger the authorities... COME ON!

3 Arabs in a Van and you would report that?

You know I know people who buy upwards 200 phone cards and resell them. This was 10 years ago. I even know people who buy 30 at a time to call out of the country because they are tight knit with their family.

Back 6-7 years ago I would go to Target and buy all the pokemon booster packs 4.50 or so and then sell them around for 5 dollars. I would literally buy over 300 packs , and clear out the store as well as ask if they have any more in the back and in the end profited somewhere between 400-600 dollars (I ended up quiting just before it exploded because then after that everyone tried to sell them).
How did I get people to buy the cards from me when they could have EASILY gone to target and got some on their own? I HAVE NO IDEA...but they did so I wasn't complaining

Should I have been taken in? A cell phone is just like these cards, but its technology...and people imagine they are for illicit uses.

What about people who sit there all day long buying used Dell Machines so they can turn them around on Ebay? I've even read of a few guys here talking about how they turn around 5-10 machines a month for a good sum of cash! If someone with an Arab last name was buying these 7 machines a month would you alert the authorities?

 

[sdifox]

I would say it does look suspecious. The manner of handling it lacked finese, but I guess they were not willing to take the time to conduct a thorough investigation, fearing for the worst. I guess the terrorists are winning.

Seriously, 1000 cell phone is chomp change for the true cell phone movers. They count by containers. No terrorist is dumb enough to go to so many stores to buy 80 at a time. That would just draw attention for no good reason.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
There isn't any way to win in this situation...

1. We detain them till we find out what they are up to - they aren't up to anything illegal so we let them go. People cry "Racial Profiling" "Fascist State" blah blah blah...

2. We don't do anything because buying phones in bulk isn't illegal - then something happens and the cries of "We knew about these activities yet we did NOTHING" come out.

We've already seen what happens when you use option #2. Why do we have to wait until after the tragedy to employ our 20/20 hindsight? It is not against the law to be detained by the police for a brief period of time and held without charges. In this case the situation was suspicious enough to warrant detention until it could be determined what was going on.

Seriously, if you saw a van load of arab men with 1000 cell phones you wouldn't report that? If you saw a group of people buying up pre-paid cell phones in bulk you wouldn't report that either?

If I saw a guy buying 4-5 phones... ok, maybe he's outfitting his family. But when he buys 80 phones, with cash and in such a way that it won't trigger the authorities... COME ON!

3 Arabs in a Van and you would report that? Use my whole quote please... Arabs in a van with 1000 cell phones

You know I know people who buy upwards 200 phone cards and resell them. This was 10 years ago. I even know people who buy 30 at a time to call out of the country because they are tight knit with their family.

Back 6-7 years ago I would go to Target and buy all the pokemon booster packs 4.50 or so and then sell them around for 5 dollars. I would literally buy over 300 packs , and clear out the store as well as ask if they have any more in the back and in the end profited somewhere between 400-600 dollars (I ended up quiting just before it exploded because then after that everyone tried to sell them).
How did I get people to buy the cards from me when they could have EASILY gone to target and got some on their own? I HAVE NO IDEA...but they did so I wasn't complaining

Should I have been taken in? A cell phone is just like these cards, but its technology...and people imagine they are for illicit uses.

What about people who sit there all day long buying used Dell Machines so they can turn them around on Ebay? I've even read of a few guys here talking about how they turn around 5-10 machines a month for a good sum of cash! If someone with an Arab last name was buying these 7 machines a month would you alert the authorities?

I can't believe you are trying to equate cell phones to pokemon cards. :disgust:
And refurbishing used computers is the same too?


Oh well. Obviously nothing about that situation strikes you as odd. Nothing to see here... carry on.

 

[Xecuter]

This is exactly the same type of treatment that happened to black people in the 60s

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: alchemize
edit: Oh I see - techs assumed that because they weren't associated with any known terrorist groups that they had no intent.

Apparently they had enough evidence to be charged "collecting or providing materials for terrorist acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes."

They were charged b/c
1) they were Arab-looking men
2) they exceeded the secret cellphone quota

Reasonable people would say that's not evidence . . . it's hysteria.

I see you have connections with the DA? :roll:

I love it when partisans like you, the OP, and other leftists draw conclusions pooh poohing every arrest and every case ever posted, even when attacks actually occur. It's so cute, but sometimes it does bring a bit of bile up.

Did you read the link in the OP?
1) The police were called b/c the clerk noted Arab men were buying a bunch of cellphones.

Adham Abdelhamid Othman, 21, of Dallas, and Maruan Awad Muhareb, 18, and Louai Abdelhamied Othman, 23, both of Mesquite, Texas, were stopped by police Friday outside a Wal-Mart store in Caro, about 80 miles north of Detroit after employees became suspicious when they purchased about 80 cell phones.

2) Additional evidence preceding arrest . . . exactly.
3) What happened after the arrest

Local prosecutors charged them with collecting or providing materials for terrorist acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes.

4) What happened after they started looking for evidence

Also, a prosecutor in a separate Ohio case said he can't prove a terrorism link between two men arrested after buying large numbers of cell phones and won't proceed for now with terrorism charges against them.

If you are having trouble with bile, I think you should visit your regular doctor for a referral to a gastroenterologist. Then again if it's just weariness over our 'state of turrurist fearmongering' . . . you should consider a reality pill.

Yes, because police faithfully present any and all evidence to the media for rapid consumption.

Reasonable people would wait to sit on a jury and hear all the evidence. Unreasonable people would blanketly blame it on hysteria/racism (or on the other hand, say "they were arabs, they must be guilty"). Of course, I only see the former and none of the latter here.

2 outcomes in this scenario:
1) Acquited or charges dropped - the left "see I told you so!"
2) Convicted - "goddamm racist fearmonger framing!".

You got all the bases covered.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Dude there's no jury!

There's no charges!

The DA cut them lose b/c there was no good reason to arrest them in the first place!

These guys were arrested for practicing 'capitalism while Arab.'

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
I am amazed that I seem to be the only one here who is curious as to WHY these guys had 1000 phones that they bought three at a time and paid cash for. (I know they only bought 80 at the Wal-Mart but I'm assuming they bought the other phones the same way)

That doesn't raise a red flag for anyone here?

They are operating a cash only business. Why?

What are they doing with the money? Is this a clever profit scheme or are they forwarding cash to mosques and "relief"organizations that serve as fronts for terrorist funding?

Are they filing tax returns on this money?

Where are they getting the money to buy the phones?

Am I the only one here who has these questions bouncing around in my head?

Normal, everyday people don't behave this way. They don't have hundreds of cell phones parted out in the back of a van. Why did these guys?


I can't believe these questions aren't popping up in your heads.

Why is it your business? Unless you can demonstrate that they were doing something wrong, they are free to do whatever the hell they want...that's what it means to live in a free society. I don't have to go around explaining my every action to "concerned citizens" and overenthusiastic cops, and neither do you.

End of thread. Being different is being free.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: alchemize
edit: Oh I see - techs assumed that because they weren't associated with any known terrorist groups that they had no intent.

Apparently they had enough evidence to be charged "collecting or providing materials for terrorist acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes."

If they where let go, then there was not in fact "enough evidence."

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
I can't believe you are trying to equate cell phones to pokemon cards. :disgust:
And refurbishing used computers is the same too?


Oh well. Obviously nothing about that situation strikes you as odd. Nothing to see here... carry on.

A cell phone is a terrorist tool but a computer is not? As far as charges being dropped, how does that make up for the time spent in jail, being harassed by authorities and the media, for no good reason?

 

[sandorski]

Suspicious behaviour = Call Authorities + Authorities Investigate = Find Evidence + Arrest/Don't Arrest based on Evidence. If Investigation is inconclusive, follow, phone tap, etc until Truth is known.

It ain't Rocket Science.

 

[compuwiz1]

A little known fact to some people, is I could have gone out and bought $40 cell phones, taken them to my local flea market, and many people, who are not familiar with the product, and not familiar with the fact they could buy them at Wal-Mart for $40, would pay $50 for those phones, and think nothing of it. All of a sudden I have a profit of $10,000

The hysteria built by this was way over rated. All they had to do is ask what the intent was, if suspicious, and if they got a satisfactory answer, let em go. Nooooo, they had to blow it way out of proportion, and let the media spin it to the max. Things like this are embarrasing for us as a country.

Why is it taking 2008 so long to get here?

 

[ECUHITMAN]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

I'm not asking people to explain their every action... But when something pops out that is this out of the ordinary I think someone has the right to ask. If they had been caught with $100k in the van they would have been forced to prove how they got the money.

Nobody needs 1000 phones. They should have to explain that.

Apparently you don't believe they were selling them for profit, because you keep saying the same thing about 'normal' people not needing 1000 cell phones. Look if you want to charge them with tax evasion, fine. If you want to follow up and find out where they live and covertly follow them around, that works too.

But you can't just arrest people and put them on trial on basically very vague charges of 'collecting or providing materials for terrorist acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes'. Since when did buying a lot of cell phones at wal-mart fall under collecting materials for terrorists acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target..? These charges were handed out because of the fear of them being Arab and Muslim and wanting to commit a terrorist attack.

Look, I know it was a while ago but I had an internship at NCIS and while I was there we received a copy of the unclassified translated Al Qaeda training manual that I made a power point presentation to train new agents. Anyway, the instructions were pretty simple. Don't use the phone, and don't do anything to arouse suspicion. They even said to make sure you look like Americans (i.e. wear blue jeans, cut your hair, use deodorant, etc.) so you can blend in. They even addressed the issue that being Arab will immediately arouse suspicion so they had to be even more careful when going out in public.

The whole idea that trained terrorists that were in the USA to carry out an attack would be buying and re-selling cell phones for a few thousand dollars goes against everything in the training manual and common sense. Is it possible they were here for another purpose? Maybe. Is it possible they are sympathetic and wanted to send money over help the cause? Maybe. Will we ever know if our first response is to arrest, hand out trumped up charges, without investigating? If you think we should arrest every person in this country that is doing something that falls under the suspicious category, you better declare martial law and start setting up those concentration camps again because that is exactly where we would be going.



EDIT: if you would like to read the manual do a google search for "Al Qaeda Training Manual" or click Here

 

[shira]

Those who don't understand that arresting people for "suspicious activity" is part and parcel to a police state need to do a little checking of what is was like to live behind the iron curtain.

Those who claim that the innocent have "nothing to fear" are entirely missing the point: Being questioned, detained, and arrested is "something to fear."

If you don't get this, you really have no understanding of what freedom is.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: shira
Those who don't understand that arresting people for "suspicious activity" is part and parcel to a police state need to do a little checking of what is was like to live behind the iron curtain.

Those who claim that the innocent have "nothing to fear" are entirely missing the point: Being questioned, detained, and arrested is "something to fear."

If you don't get this, you really have no understanding of what freedom is.

The govt has been doing this for decades. Suspicion is and has been used as grounds for entry onto private property and arrest and detainment.

I can see both sides of the coin on this.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: shira
Those who don't understand that arresting people for "suspicious activity" is part and parcel to a police state need to do a little checking of what is was like to live behind the iron curtain.

Those who claim that the innocent have "nothing to fear" are entirely missing the point: Being questioned, detained, and arrested is "something to fear."

If you don't get this, you really have no understanding of what freedom is.

The govt has been doing this for decades. Suspicion is and has been used as grounds for entry onto private property and arrest and detainment.

I can see both sides of the coin on this.

I don't agree that the government has been doing THIS sort of thing for decades.

The threshold criterion for entry into private property by the authorities historically has been "probable cause," and then only when supported by a warrant obtained from a judge.

There's no way a judge would issue a warrant based solely on the information that some middle-eastern men had purchased 1000 cell phones.

I sometimes buy four 24-roll packs of toilet paper at Costco. Hmmmmmmm. I'll bet that toilet paper MIGHT be useful in putting together some types of home-made bombs. So I guess I should be perfectly okay with it when one day the authorities detain and hold me until they're satisfied I'm not a terrorist.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: shira
Those who don't understand that arresting people for "suspicious activity" is part and parcel to a police state need to do a little checking of what is was like to live behind the iron curtain.

Those who claim that the innocent have "nothing to fear" are entirely missing the point: Being questioned, detained, and arrested is "something to fear."

If you don't get this, you really have no understanding of what freedom is.

The govt has been doing this for decades. Suspicion is and has been used as grounds for entry onto private property and arrest and detainment.

I can see both sides of the coin on this.

I don't agree that the government has been doing THIS sort of thing for decades.

The threshold criterion for entry into private property by the authorities historically has been "probable cause," and then only when supported by a warrant obtained from a judge.

There's no way a judge would issue a warrant based solely on the information that some middle-eastern men had purchased 1000 cell phones.

I sometimes buy four 24-roll packs of toilet paper at Costco. Hmmmmmmm. I'll bet that toilet paper MIGHT be useful in putting together some types of home-made bombs. So I guess I should be perfectly okay with it when one day the authorities detain and hold me until they're satisfied I'm not a terrorist.

Some of these comparisons are making my eyes bleed.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

So is it suspicious to be black at a golf course?

How about a white guy that speaks English at the NBA draft?

Hispanic at a historically black college?

Asians at NASCAR?

Jews at a Christmas sale?

Native Americans at a Cleveland Indians game?


You must have grounds for suspicion other than your prejudices, ignorance, and fear if you plan to take LAW enforcement ACTIONS that go beyond asking more questions to find out if your suspicions have merit. There is no other side to this coin. Good police work is always good police work.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: ECUHITMAN

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

I'm not asking people to explain their every action... But when something pops out that is this out of the ordinary I think someone has the right to ask. If they had been caught with $100k in the van they would have been forced to prove how they got the money.

Nobody needs 1000 phones. They should have to explain that.

Apparently you don't believe they were selling them for profit, because you keep saying the same thing about 'normal' people not needing 1000 cell phones. Look if you want to charge them with tax evasion, fine. If you want to follow up and find out where they live and covertly follow them around, that works too.

Actually I do believe they are selling them for profit. What I would like to know is where those profits are going. There are networks of individuals in this country who funnel money to so-called "charities" that are really humanitrian fronts for terrorism.

But you can't just arrest people and put them on trial on basically very vague charges of 'collecting or providing materials for terrorist acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes'. Since when did buying a lot of cell phones at wal-mart fall under collecting materials for terrorists acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target..? These charges were handed out because of the fear of them being Arab and Muslim and wanting to commit a terrorist attack.

Agreed. I believe the charges were filed (knowing they would be quickly dismissed) as a delay tactic to give the police more time to lookinto these guys. I'm not 100% comfortable with that. But I'm equally unconvinced that in this case it was the wrong thing to do.

Look, I know it was a while ago but I had an internship at NCIS and while I was there we received a copy of the unclassified translated Al Qaeda training manual that I made a power point presentation to train new agents. Anyway, the instructions were pretty simple. Don't use the phone, and don't do anything to arouse suspicion. They even said to make sure you look like Americans (i.e. wear blue jeans, cut your hair, use deodorant, etc.) so you can blend in. They even addressed the issue that being Arab will immediately arouse suspicion so they had to be even more careful when going out in public.

These guys were using cash only. If you use cash as opposed to a credit card or check there is no trail. It is the method least likely to be noticed by anyone checking credit records. They also apparently bought these phones at odd hours in the hopes of getting an inexperienced cashier who would be less likely to act on their suspicious behaviors.

That said, I don't believe these individuals are terrorists. I do suspect they are part of a financial conduit for terrorism.

The whole idea that trained terrorists that were in the USA to carry out an attack would be buying and re-selling cell phones for a few thousand dollars goes against everything in the training manual and common sense. Is it possible they were here for another purpose? Maybe. Is it possible they are sympathetic and wanted to send money over help the cause? Maybe. Will we ever know if our first response is to arrest, hand out trumped up charges, without investigating? If you think we should arrest every person in this country that is doing something that falls under the suspicious category, you better declare martial law and start setting up those concentration camps again because that is exactly where we would be going.

You had one comment in that paragraph that falls in line with where my brain is at right now. I don't think these guys are terrorists. I suspect they are funneling cash to terrorists.

The second half of your paragraph is just ridiculous. Nobody wants that, certainly not me. But I am all for an investigation to find out what these guys are up to. It is only prudent to follow up in this situation.

EDIT: if you would like to read the manual do a google search for "Al Qaeda Training Manual" or click Here