FBI blew 9-11

BarneyFife

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Aug 12, 2001
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"The FBI blew repeated chances to uncover the 9-11 plot because it failed to aggressively investigate evidence of Al Qaeda?s presence in the United States, especially in the San Diego area, where two of the hijackers were living with one of the bureau?s own informants, according to the congressional report set for release this week."


What a joke.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
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why was an fbi agent living with them? that would indicate they were on the job if anything.....
 

Amirtallica

Banned
Apr 17, 2003
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Oh, but they need more billions of taxdollars so they can fail to perform.
I think the stupid FBI and stupid CIA should be shut down and the money put to real use other than creating a stupid lie about how sophisticated they are. In reality they are stupid agencies... stupid and useless. Their budgets are way too high and they are run by idiots.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
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yet they have arrested various other terrorist suspects here in the US since 9/11....


You act as if criminals and terrorists publish their memberships and plans.....
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
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THE LONG-DELAYED 900-page report also contains potentially explosive new evidence suggesting that Omar al-Bayoumi, a key associate of two of the hijackers, may have been a Saudi-government agent, sources tell NEWSWEEK. The report documents extensive ties between al-Bayoumi and the hijackers. But the bureau never kept tabs on al-Bayoumi?despite receiving prior information he was a secret Saudi agent, the report says. In January 2000, al-Bayoumi had a meeting at the Saudi Consulate in Los Angeles?and then went directly to a restaurant where he met future hijackers Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi, whom he took back with him to San Diego. (Al-Bayoumi later arranged for the men to get an apartment next to his and fronted them their first two months rent.) The report is sure to reignite questions about whether some Saudi officials were secretly monitoring the hijackers?or even facilitating their conduct.

Thats the relevant part of this story BTW.....
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
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The report criticizes the Pentagon for resisting military strikes against Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan prior to 9-11, and the CIA for failing to pass along crucial information about Almihdhar and Alhazmi at a terrorists? summit in Malaysia.


Does this mean all of you will now agree that pre-emptive strikes were needed but not used by Bush?
 

Amirtallica

Banned
Apr 17, 2003
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"terrorist suspects" = Arabiacs
Zacharias Mussaui is the only person arrested in relation to 9/11. I find it hard to believe that he was the only one that helped the 9/11 hijackers here in the states.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
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I think ultimately this report will show that once again inter-agency communication is the weakest link in investigating and assessing security threats. The FBI and the CIA seem to be cyclical in their efforts towards mutual cooperation. The ONLY reason I would even consider a department such as Homeland Security is to bring these two agencies permanently under one umbrella and to force the sharing of information and coordination of investigations which go outside our national borders. Unfortunately it appears that Homeland Security has been given Big Brother status instead of being focused on the one job most necessary.
 

Warin

Senior member
Sep 6, 2001
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Originally posted by: jjones
I think ultimately this report will show that once again inter-agency communication is the weakest link in investigating and assessing security threats. The FBI and the CIA seem to be cyclical in their efforts towards mutual cooperation. The ONLY reason I would even consider a department such as Homeland Security is to bring these two agencies permanently under one umbrella and to force the sharing of information and coordination of investigations which go outside our national borders. Unfortunately it appears that Homeland Security has been given Big Brother status instead of being focused on the one job most necessary.
I totally agree with you. There seems to be this irrational inter-agency rivalry that leads to total disregard for their real goals, in favour of bickering and battling for 'attaboys' from the powers that be.

Perhaps what needs to be done is a total dismantling of the current beaurocracies in favour of a new agentcy that works in harmony, one branch in charge of domestic investigation, the other focussing on the rest of the world.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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I'm curious about the Bush Family ties to the Bin Ladens and what went on there. Heard theres was the only plane allowed to fly. These things should be cleared up so nobody takes a notion that Bush knew he was about to be handed a free ticket for ownership of Iraq. It was really wierd that Bush would never stay in Washington around that time. Why? What did he know and when?
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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I'm curious about the Bush Family ties to the Bin Ladens and what went on there. Heard theres was the only plane allowed to fly. These things should be cleared up.....
As usual, Moonie's "facts" and suppositions are in error. He says his mom always told him to be honest, but apparently he didn't pay her no mind. Moonie, are you a liar or just a victm of "faulty intelligence?"

Good stuff........I think I'll refer to this thread every time Moonie criticizes Bush for supposedly operating the same way he does.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Gonna stand up for the FBI this time. With eleventy billion "facts" to sort through, how does one know in advance which are valid? Nothing ever happened like this before, and frankly if someone wants it to happen again, it will.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
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Non citizens should not be allowed to use Commercial Airlines. Train, Bus and Rented Auto and only after a proper vetting of their particulars are the means non citizens should be limited to. No Commercial Planes or Ships... And... anyone who may look like a non American can be removed until they can prove they are citizens.. is the only fair way to handle the issue..
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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Non citizens should not be allowed to use Commercial Airlines. Train, Bus and Rented Auto and only after a proper vetting of their particulars are the means non citizens should be limited to. No Commercial Planes or Ships... And... anyone who may look like a non American can be removed until they can prove they are citizens.. is the only fair way to handle the issue..
Even in sarcasm does one's true colors bleed through......
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: LunarRay
Non citizens should not be allowed to use Commercial Airlines. Train, Bus and Rented Auto and only after a proper vetting of their particulars are the means non citizens should be limited to. No Commercial Planes or Ships... And... anyone who may look like a non American can be removed until they can prove they are citizens.. is the only fair way to handle the issue..
1) They could do just as much damage with a train or bus as with a plane
2) are you f-ing kidding?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
70,091
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Originally posted by: Corn
I'm curious about the Bush Family ties to the Bin Ladens and what went on there. Heard theres was the only plane allowed to fly. These things should be cleared up.....Full quote: I'm curious about the Bush Family ties to the Bin Ladens and what went on there. Heard theres was the only plane allowed to fly. These things should be cleared up so nobody takes a notion that Bush knew he was about to be handed a free ticket for ownership of Iraq. It was really wierd that Bush would never stay in Washington around that time. Why? What did he know and when?
As usual, Moonie's "facts" and suppositions are in error. He says his mom always told him to be honest, but apparently he didn't pay her no mind. Moonie, are you a liar or just a victm of "faulty intelligence?"

Good stuff........I think I'll refer to this thread every time Moonie criticizes Bush for supposedly operating the same way he does.
Claim: Two days after September 11 -- while all other planes were grounded -- a secret flight arranged by George W. Bush flew Osama bin Laden's relatives out of the USA.
Status: False.

Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2002]


BIN LADEN FAMILY ALLOWED TO FLY DURING GROUND STOPPAGE? Michael Moore was on the Daily Show on Comedy Central and alleged that when all the nation's planes were grounded for 3 days after 9/11, the Bush Administration gave permission for a private Saudi jet to visit 5 cities to pick up around 20 members of the bin Laden family, over the objections of the FBI.



Origins: This
just goes to show what a little bit of fact flipped onto its side and then spewed by a public figure can do. Yes, a couple of flights arranged by the Saudi government did collect a number of Osama bin Laden's America-based relatives and whisk them to Saudi Arabia in the aftermath of the September 11 terrorist attacks, but this didn't take place during the FAA-imposed ban on air travel in the US. The two flights in question took wing on September 18 and 19, days after the ban on air travel was lifted.

The Federal Aviation Administration ordered all flights in the United States grounded immediately following the terrorist attacks, and that ban stayed in effect until September 13. (Even then, for that first day commercial carriers were either completing the interrupted flights of September 11 or were repositioning empty aircraft in anticipation of the resumption of full service. New passenger flights did not resume until the 14th.) During that two-day period of full lock-down, only the military and specially FAA-authorized flights that delivered life-saving medical necessities were in the air. The enforcement of the empty skies directive was so stringent that even after the United Network for Organ Sharing sought and gained FAA clearance to use charter aircraft on September 12 to effect time-critical deliveries of organs for transplant, one of its flights carrying a human heart was forced to the ground in Bellingham, Washington, 80 miles short of its Seattle destination, by two Navy F/A-18 fighters. (The organ completed its journey after being transferred to a helicopter.)

Whether bin Laden's relatives left of their own accord, whether they were urged to leave by the Saudi government, or whether they were told to leave by the FBI is a bit murky, as officials issued conflicting statements:


A spokesman for the Saudi Arabian embassy in Washington denied claims yesterday that the bin Ladens had been told by the FBI and the Saudi government to return. He said: "There was no official warning from the government that they should go but maybe they thought it would be better if they went home."1


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. . . many US-based relatives of Osama bin Laden, the Saudi-born terrorist who is accused of masterminding the hijackings, returned to Saudi Arabia on chartered jets. A Saudi diplomat said his government and the FBI advised the bin Ladens to leave for their own safety . . . He said all Saudi citizens who flew home were first interviewed by the FBI and that none who wanted to go home were detained. 2

Whether bin Laden family members left voluntarily or at the urging of the FBI or the Saudi government, they clearly did not depart on a "secret flight" a mere "two days" after the September 11 terrorist attacks, while all other air traffic was grounded. The September 18 flight was a Boeing 727 privately chartered by the bin Laden family, which left Boston with a mere five passengers on board. The September 19 flight, arranged and paid for by the Saudi government, collected about 20 passengers from a number of cities, including Los Angeles, Orlando, and Boston. Neither flight was paid for or arranged by the U.S. government, took off "secretly," or departed during the FAA-imposed ban on air travel.

How Michael Moore could have spun all of this into the tale he now spouts is beyond us. Yet spout it he does, as in this excerpt from a 2 January 2002 interview with Al D'Amato and Alan Colmes of the FOX Network:


Why don't we look at the connections between the Bush family and Saudi Arabia, why this country will not really go after where the money probably came from? Why did this country allow the bin Laden jet?
Let me ask you this, Al. Why did this country allow the bin Laden family, two days after -- two days after September 11 ? to fly around America and pick up all the bin Laden relatives, about 24 of them, and take them to Europe? Not a single one of them was interrogated by the FBI. Do you think, if your brother was accused of killing somebody, and they couldn't find him, that they might come and talk to you, maybe ask you a few questions? 5

The sum total of the evidence Moore cites is a 30 September 2001 New York Times article, most of which negates what he claims:


In his first interview since the attacks, Saudi Ambassador Bandar bin Sultan, also said that private planes carrying the kingdom's deputy defense minister and the governor of Mecca, both members of the royal family, were grounded and initially caught up in the F.B.I. dragnet. Both planes, one jumbo jet carrying 100 family members, and the other 40, were eventually allowed to leave when airports reopened and passports were checked.3
Note that these planes were grounded, they were "caught up in the F.B.I. dragnet," and they were not allowed to leave until "airports reopened and passports were checked." This is hardly evidence of "secret flights" taking off "two days" after the attacks "over the objections of the FBI."

Moore seems to have fixated on a single sentence in that article:


The young members of the bin Laden clan were driven or flown under F.B.I. supervision to a secret assembly point in Texas and then to Washington from where they left the country on a private charter plane when airports reopened three days after the attacks.1
Note that this is a single-source item, that it is wrong about the date on which the flight it describes took place, and that even if it were literally true, it still belies Moore's claim that bin Laden family members were ferried out of the country before the FBI had a chance to question them ? as do other news accounts:


Dozens of Saudi citizens were flown back to Saudi Arabia at their government's expense, while the bin Ladens are believed to have paid their own way, according to a Saudi diplomat. All of those who took up the Saudi government's offer to fly home were reportedly questioned by the FBI before being allowed to board the flights.4
So, to summarize:


No flights took bin Laden family members out of the USA "two days" after the September 11 attacks. The flights Moore decries took place a week after the attacks, and they left only after the FAA had allowed regular passenger air travel to resume.

Bin Laden family members were not allowed to slip out of the USA "over the objections of the FBI" or before the FBI had an opportunity to "interrogate" them, as nearly every news account of these flights mentions that the FBI questioned the departing Saudis, grounded their planes, and supervised their departures.

The flights which carried bin Laden family members back to Saudi Arabia were not "secret," as the press reported on them within days of their occurrence. (One could hardly expect that either the U.S. or the Saudi government was going to provide the world with advance notice about the departure of planes carrying people who had good reason to fear for their lives.)
Of course it was reasonable for the members of the bin Laden family to fear retaliation and to seek the asylum of their own country, especially in those first dark weeks following the attacks when Americans were frustrated about having no one within their grasp whom they could punish for the horrors visited upon New York and Washington: just consider the September 16 stabbing of a 20-year-old Saudi man who was studying at Boston University, an assault the police and the community believed had been motivated merely by the victim's nationality. And of course it was reasonable that the Saudi goverment would be concerned for their safety, and that the U.S. government would allow them to travel to a more safe location once it was feasible for them to do so.

Some folks play fast and loose with the facts when they've an axe to grind, however, and in Moore's case his axe is "the dastardly Republicans and how they're responsible for every ill ever visited upon the USA." In this case, inventing a bin Laden jet that secretly flew out of the country while the rest of us were barred from the skies, and peopling it with folks who were spirited out of the FBI's grasp by a U.S. president intent upon paying back some unnamed (but darkly hinted at) favor, is a handy way of reinforcing the stereotype of Republicans as callous and greedy politicians whose paramount values involve money, not people.

Last updated: 19 March 2002
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Hehe, Corn, I'll have to quote this thread when I hear you call somebody a liar. Clearly you heard the same thing as what I did. You heard it and I heard it but somehow I'm a liar. Interesting. But thanks for clearing up that subset of my larger questions. Glad to put that part to bed. Perhaps you know why Bush was always on vacation or why all the secrecy about what they knew and when. Open hearings would sure be nice. And why wasn't the family seized for questioning since the brother was at cause? Business deals? Maybe too you can explain why Rice said we never dreamed of planes and she was given intelligence on that exact possibility, or so perhaps an other urban legend goes.

 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
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Clearly you heard the same thing as what I did.
Wrong again, clearly I heard it was a lie perpetrated by a lying fraud, and repeated by another.....

And why wasn't the family seized for questioning since the brother was at cause? Business deals?
Quote from the Snopes article:

Bin Laden family members were not allowed to slip out of the USA "over the objections of the FBI" or before the FBI had an opportunity to "interrogate" them, as nearly every news account of these flights mentions that the FBI questioned the departing Saudis, grounded their planes, and supervised their departures.
Lie after lie after lie. Disgusting. :disgust:

Perhaps you know why Bush was always on vacation....
"always?"

I have a hard time believing Bush was "always" on vacation.... But then again, since it came from your mouth, I have good reason to doubt the accruacy of yet another ridiculous claim. It does please me to see how desperate you are that you'll say almost anything no matter how far fetched.....
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
70,091
5,283
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Wrong again, clearly I heard it was a lie perpetrated by a lying fraud, and repeated by another.....
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How did we get onto the Bush British yellow cake thing?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
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Great of Barney to finally place the blame squarely on the prior administration's low priority of anti-terrorism. Good job BF!

I'm assuming unless he feels that the current administration could have turned around one of the hugest law enforcement agencies on the planet around in 9 months time.
 

BarneyFife

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: alchemize
Great of Barney to finally place the blame squarely on the prior administration's low priority of anti-terrorism. Good job BF!

I'm assuming unless he feels that the current administration could have turned around one of the hugest law enforcement agencies on the planet around in 9 months time.
Ding ding ding. You win the stooge award. This goes to the first stooge who tries to make this a political issue when the fact is that the FBI has been incompetent for years.

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Non citizens should not be allowed to use Commercial Airlines. Train, Bus and Rented Auto and only after a proper vetting of their particulars are the means non citizens should be limited to. No Commercial Planes or Ships... And... anyone who may look like a non American can be removed until they can prove they are citizens.. is the only fair way to handle the issue..
1) They could do just as much damage with a train or bus as with a plane
2) are you f-ing kidding?

To save bandwidth.. Corn ought to be included in this response..

OK... perhaps the citizen and the visitor ought to be allowed to travel on any mode they wish... and maybe the "Patriot Act" and "race profiling" is a bit much... what tools remain for our FBI to protect us if you take these away... is not profiling the same as what I said above and the Patriot Act... suspends many rights as well... some much more precious than what mode of transport a visitor may use...

FBI didn't blow it on 9/11 .... they don't exist to allow some destruction and loss of life to occur... they exist to provide the citizen the best security we are willing to balance freedom with..
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
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Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: alchemize
Great of Barney to finally place the blame squarely on the prior administration's low priority of anti-terrorism. Good job BF!

I'm assuming unless he feels that the current administration could have turned around one of the hugest law enforcement agencies on the planet around in 9 months time.
Ding ding ding. You win the stooge award. This goes to the first stooge who tries to make this a political issue when the fact is that the FBI has been incompetent for years.
Oh the mistakes of our fathers. I wish bush had seen through this one...


Link
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,841
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Critics have been saying that from the getgo. Billions of dollars spent on a full alphabet spectrum of security agencies and 9-11 happened anyway. INS is a huge part of the problem as well for not following up on expired visas. And the sheer volume of imigration is outrageous in the face of an all ready massive US population. The era of the unsetteled north American contenent is over and there's no need to overwhelm law enforcement and the INS with massive immigration. You can bet your arse this will change after the next terror event. And we all know it's in the works and on the way...
 

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