Fastest USB 3.0 or 3.1 expansion card for old motherboard?

[david151]

I have an old GIGABYTE GAEP45UD3R motherboard, which only has USB 2 ports. I have my graphics card in a PCIE x16

slot, which only leaves PCIE 1x slots. I have modded the motherboard by cutting the back off one of the PCIE x1

slots so that It can fit any speed cards, although I realise they will only work at x1 speed.


With this is mind, what expansion card would be the quickest? I see that USB 3.1 expansion cards are now available. Although designed for PCIE x4, they will go in my modiefied x1 slot, although again I appreciate they will only operate at x1 speed. But my point is I have tried previously some USB 3.0 cards designed for x1 slots, but they did not saturate the bandwith of the x1 slot. As the USB 3.1 cards are newer, with more modern chipsets, do you think I would be better with one of these for getting closer to the saturation point of PCIE x1. I was thinking of something like this:

http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5430#ov

 

[VirtualLarry]

They make USB3.0 cards (dual-port?) that work in a PCI-E 2.0 x1 slot. Not sure why you would need to hard-mod a slot, just to accept a USB card.

And what are you doing with your USB3.0 devices, that demands so much performance? Possibly, you would be better-served for using a SATA-to-eSATA bracket, and using an eSATA dock or enclosure, if your purpose is storage. (About the only thing I can see that would need the bandwidth, other than video-capture. And if you're doing video-capture, just get a PCI-E card instead of USB3.0.)

 

[david151]

they make USB3.0 cards (dual-port?) that work in a PCI-E 2.0 x1 slot

I know they do, but I have not found a USB 3.0 card that saturates the PCI-E x1 slot. in fact most of them don't come anywhere near of the x1 capability in terms of speed. My question was if any of the USB 3.1 cards are likely to get nearer to saturating the USB x1 slot? Will they perform worse or better than the USB 3.0 cards in my modded slot? They are in fact a more modern card with newer chipsets.

As for my uses I do HD video capture using this:

https://www.amazon.com/Magewell-XI1...1478389898&sr=8-1&keywords=Magewell+XI100DUSB

I am not interested in buying anything else as this works well.

 

[UsandThem]

That USB capture device you linked to supports USB 2.0 and USB 3.0. I don't think using anything other than a USB 3.0 expansion card will matter for performance.

I know the Gigabyte USB 3.1 expansion card says it's backwards compatible with USB 2.0 and USB 3.0, but I'm not sure if you will experience any issues with that and the Magewell capture device.

Of course like you said, you want to "max out your slot's potential", but I have new Skylake PC and an external SSD in an enclosure I use to back up my files, and with the USB overhead "tax", the USB transfer speed averages around 240 - 270 MB/s if I remember correctly (I haven't had to do a back-up in a few months). So that's the real-world performance to expect using USB 3.0.

The tech specs at Magewell's site claim USB 3.0 performance is 300-350 MB/s, but they have an asterisk next to that amount, and I don't see any details at the bottom concerning what they mean (although that's probably the theoretical maximum that will never be achieved if I had to guess).

http://www.magewell.com/usb-capture-hdmi/tech-specs

 

[david151]

I don't think using anything other than a USB 3.0 expansion card will matter for performance.

The thing is PCIe 2.0 x1 has a theoretical limit of 500MB/s. I know this is the theoretical limit and this would never be achievable in real world situations, but I feel 300 - 350 MB/s should be achievable. In my testing I know that all USB 3.0 expansion cards are not created equally. A while ago I tested some unbranded Chinese ones and found massive speed differences between the cards. Some of them resulted in a lot of dropped frames, whereas others coped much better.

In my opinion there is a lack of testing in terms of benchmarks for the various cards on the market. The only thing I can find is some old reviews from many years ago. That's why I wonder if the 3.1 cards may have the edge, as they are newer designs and may come closer to maxing out my PCIE x1 slot. My goal is simple, I just want to get the most out of my x1 slot that it practically achievable.

 

[UsandThem]

The thing is PCIe 2.0 x1 has a theoretical limit of 500MB/s. I know this is the theoretical limit and this would never be achievable in real world situations, but I feel 300 - 350 MB/s should be achievable. In my testing I know that all USB 3.0 expansion cards are not created equally. A while ago I tested some unbranded Chinese ones and found massive speed differences between the cards. Some of them resulted in a lot of dropped frames, whereas others coped much better.
My goal is simple, I just want to get the most out of my x1 slot that it practically achievable.

I guess all you can go off of are user reviews, as USB expansion cards are a bit of a commodity and unlikely to be reviewed by hardware sites (outside of when USB 3.1 first launched).

If you want to "max out" your slot, buy the USB 3.1 card and hope it works properly with your capture device and motherboard. If for some reason it doesn't, you can return it.

Good luck.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

The thing is PCIe 2.0 x1 has a theoretical limit of 500MB/s. I know this is the theoretical limit and this would never be achievable in real world situations, but I feel 300 - 350 MB/s should be achievable. In my testing I know that all USB 3.0 expansion cards are not created equally. A while ago I tested some unbranded Chinese ones and found massive speed differences between the cards. Some of them resulted in a lot of dropped frames, whereas others coped much better.

In my opinion there is a lack of testing in terms of benchmarks for the various cards on the market. The only thing I can find is some old reviews from many years ago. That's why I wonder if the 3.1 cards may have the edge, as they are newer designs and may come closer to maxing out my PCIE x1 slot. My goal is simple, I just want to get the most out of my x1 slot that it practically achievable.

That's fairly realistic, but to reach those kind of speeds UASP is required. Otherwise performance in normal "bulk transfer" mode top out at 200-250MB/s. I've had a Renesas controller upwards of 375MB/s, but that's pushing the limit for 3rd party add-on cards. The Intel PCH xHCI controllers can do ~425MB/s, but since those are integrated into the PCH, they are obviously not available as add-on cards. You will also need an external device capable of actually sustaining that transfer rate (f.x. an external SSD).

As for controllers, I've had best luck with Renesas and Asmedia ones.

With regards to 10Gbit USB 3.1, the only reason to get that would be the new Type-C plugs. You will not notice any performance increase since the bottleneck is still the PCIe 2.0 x1 connection to the southbridge. Another thing is that Type-C support requires Windows 10 or Linux.

 

[david151]

I've had a Renesas controller upwards of 375MB/s

That is very impressive. What was the name of the card? Do you have an amazon link to it?

With regards to 10Gbit USB 3.1, the only reason to get that would be the new Type-C plugs. You will not notice any performance increase since the bottleneck is still the PCIe 2.0 x1 connection to the southbridge

I know the bottleneck is the PCIe 2.0 X1 and know it is impossible to get 10Gbit, but again I stress different cards by different manufacturers perform differently even though they have all been used on the same slot. I thought it may be worth trying some of these latest 3.1 cards to see how their controllers perform.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

That is very impressive. What was the name of the card? Do you have an amazon link to it?

Certainly. Its a Silverstone EC04-P using the Renesas uPD720201 controller, the Windows 10 provided driver and connected directly to the CPU.

I know the bottleneck is the PCIe 2.0 X1 and know it is impossible to get 10Gbit, but again I stress different cards by different manufacturers perform differently even though they have all been used on the same slot. I thought it may be worth trying some of these latest 3.1 cards to see how their controllers perform.

There is really only one 10Gbit USB 3.1 controller on the market right now, and that's the Asmedia ASM1142. Performance with USB 3.0 devices is pretty much in line with other USB 3.0 controllers. Perhaps a tiny bit better but not really enough to justify the additional cost.

You could always get full performance by sacrificing x8 lanes from the CPU to the secondary PCIe x16 slot though. If you're really serious about extracting maximum performance, you might want to hook one of these to that slot. It will not support TB nor any of the advanced features of Alpine Ridge with your board of course, but 10Gbit USB 3.1 should be good to go. But watch out for compatibility issues.

 

[david151]

Certainly. Its a Silverstone EC04-P using the Renesas uPD720201 controller, the Windows 10 provided driver and connected directly to the CPU.

Thanks for the link, I will have a look at that. What do you mean "connected directly to the CPU"

You could always get full performance by sacrificing x8 lanes from the CPU to the secondary PCIe x16 slot though.

I don't understand as my motherboard only has one PCIe x16 slot and 3 x PCI Express x1 slots. It does not have x8 slot. here are my motherboard details:

GA-EP45-UD3R
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3013#sp

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yeah, on a modern motherboard (Haswell, Skylake, etc.), the main GPU PCI-E x16 slot is wired directly to a PCI-E controller on the CPU.

On the OP's mobo, a P45 board, which is a Core2-era chipset, the PCI-E is connected to the Northbridge chipset, and connects to the CPU via the FSB. So there's no low-latency "direct" connection with the CPU via the PCI-E bus. Sorry, OP. It's unlikely that you will see the same types of performance that other people with more modern motherboards are seeing with some of these controller cards.

 

[david151]

Yeah, on a modern motherboard (Haswell, Skylake, etc.), the main GPU PCI-E x16 slot is wired directly to a PCI-E controller on the CPU.

On the OP's mobo, a P45 board, which is a Core2-era chipset, the PCI-E is connected to the Northbridge chipset, and connects to the CPU via the FSB. So there's no low-latency "direct" connection with the CPU via the PCI-E bus. Sorry, OP. It's unlikely that you will see the same types of performance that other people with more modern motherboards are seeing with some of these controller cards.

Thanks for clarifying this. Are you aware of any published benchmarks involving usb cards on these older motherboards? Preferably testing some of the newer cards? While I understand I have older hardware, it's still worth noting that not all cards are equally as good as each other, and there are performance differences between the makes.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Thanks for the link, I will have a look at that. What do you mean "connected directly to the CPU"
I don't understand as my motherboard only has one PCIe x16 slot and 3 x PCI Express x1 slots. It does not have x8 slot. here are my motherboard details:

GA-EP45-UD3R
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3013#sp

Whoops. Sorry about that. A case of mistaken identity. I thought it was one of the Gigabyte P45's with dual x16 slots.

VirtualLarry explained the rest beautifully.

Thanks for clarifying this. Are you aware of any published benchmarks involving usb cards on these older motherboards? Preferably testing some of the newer cards? While I understand I have older hardware, it's still worth noting that not all cards are equally as good as each other, and there are performance differences between the makes.

That's the problem. Nobody tests add-on cards any more, unless its something really special.

 

[david151]

What do people think of this? It's a 3.1 card for x1 PCIE. Obviously you will not get 10Gb/s, but they advertise 5Gb/s. I doubt you would get 5Gb/s in real world usage, however do you think it is likely to be faster than many of the older USB 3.0 cards? It lists the Chipset as Renesas uPD720201+Genesys GL3520 - what do people think about this?

PCI-E to USB 3.1 type-c 4 Port PCI Express Expansion Card Adapter 5Gb/s
http://www.ebay.com/itm/282242264929?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[deustroop]

We won't be able to say until you try it.

 

[Martinlover]

I can tell you I bought a card much like that one specifically for the USB-C port, butI could not get the drivers to install (Win 10, 64-bit) because my system did not recognize it as new hardware. The card was Chinese cheapie from Deal Xtreme, so I knew I was rolling the dice. Others with name brands (Asus, Asrock, etc.) cost significantly more ($40-50), which I am not willing to pay just for the convenience of USB 3.1. If you get that one off the Bay and it works, please post back here; I may roll the dice again.

 

[Valantar]

I bought two Orico (kinda-decent Chinese manufacturer) USB controller PCIe cards earlier this year for my severely aging X48 (ASUS Rampage Formula) motherboard - as such, I was in much of the same situation as you. I got one PVU3 (5x USB 3.0 + internal header, PCIe x1) and one PA31-AC (1x USB 3.1 type-A, 1x type-C, PCIe x4). I chose these for two reasons: the PA31 was the only PCIe x4 card I could find at the time that seemed okay (given that my motherboard only has PCIe 2.0, x1 ports are too slow for 3.1), and the PVU3 allowed me to use the front ports on my case. (Also, they were 50% off on AliExpress at the time.) I've tested both with what I have available (various USB sticks, SSDs and HDDs in UASP-enabled external cases) and especially the PA31 seems to perform very well. It actually outperforms the native USB 3.0 ports on all other computers I have access to, which surprised me. The PVU3 is also decent, although somewhat hamstrung by running on PCIe 2.0 x1 in my PC. I'm very happy with both.

If I were you, I'd avoid 3.1 cards if you don't plan on bringing it on to your next motherboard - simply due to your x1 slots limiting performance to below 3.0 speeds. Plus, 3.0 cards are cheaper, more plentiful, and often come with more ports. Do you need internal USB headers (does your case have front USB 3.0)? How many ports do you want/need? Those are the questions I'd ask myself.

 

[Valantar]

I can tell you I bought a card much like that one specifically for the USB-C port, butI could not get the drivers to install (Win 10, 64-bit) because my system did not recognize it as new hardware. The card was Chinese cheapie from Deal Xtreme, so I knew I was rolling the dice. Others with name brands (Asus, Asrock, etc.) cost significantly more ($40-50), which I am not willing to pay just for the convenience of USB 3.1. If you get that one off the Bay and it works, please post back here; I may roll the dice again.

See my post above. The PA31 is currently $25 from AliExpress (with free shipping + the seller is an official "store"), and works perfectly (no drivers needed, even) in my W10-64 PC.

 

[Martinlover]

Well, if as you say "PCIe 2.0, x1 ports are too slow for 3.1)", then there isn't much point for me, as my mobo only has PCI-E 2.0, x16 & x1 slots. I have plenty of 3.0 ports, and the device I want to hook up (M-Audio interface for guitar/mic) came with both cables, USB-C to C and USB-C to USB-A, so I'll just connect it to one of my 3.0 ports and be done with it. Wonder when manufacturers are going to start building in USB-C ports to their mobos? I read a post somewhere that said Asrock planned to for the newer Intel chipsets, but I haven't been able to find out if they yet have.

 

[Valantar]

Well, if as you say "PCIe 2.0, x1 ports are too slow for 3.1)", then there isn't much point for me, as my mobo only has PCI-E 2.0, x16 & x1 slots. I have plenty of 3.0 ports, and the device I want to hook up (M-Audio interface for guitar/mic) came with both cables, USB-C to C and USB-C to USB-A, so I'll just connect it to one of my 3.0 ports and be done with it. Wonder when manufacturers are going to start building in USB-C ports to their mobos? I read a post somewhere that said Asrock planned to for the newer Intel chipsets, but I haven't been able to find out if they yet have.

There are loads of motherboards out there with USB-C. It's most common on the Z170 chipset/LGA1151 platform, but it's readily available on X99 as well (and some AM3 boards, I seem to remember). Newegg allows you to filter for USB 3.1 in the motherboard section, nearly every board with 1x or 2x 3.1 has a type-C connector.

And yes, if that's your use case, you have nothing to gain from USB 3.1 anyway. There's simply no way that would saturate USB 3.0. And a PCIe 2.0 x1 link has a maximum (bidirectional) throughput of 500MBps, without taking overhead into account. With overhead taken into account, the maximum transfer speed is well below the maximum of USB 3.0.

 

[david151]

If I were you, I'd avoid 3.1 cards if you don't plan on bringing it on to your next motherboard - simply due to your x1 slots limiting performance to below 3.0 speeds.

Just curious why you said this, as you are running the PA31 on your ASUS RAMPAGE FORMULA (which only has x1 spare slots) and you report how pleased you are with the performance. You actually said "It actually outperforms the native USB 3.0 ports on all other computers"

Out of interest do you have any benchmarks for the PA31 and the PVU3? I note that the PA31 uses an Asmedia chipset for USB 3.1, but does it also use the same chipset to handle USB 3.0? As I have seen some USB 3.1 cards with Asmedia chips for the 3.1 and NeC chips for standard 3.0


I see that the PVU3 uses a VLI chipset. Did you need separate drivers for this, or are they built into windows 10 or latest Linux builds? Do you think the VLI chipset is as fast as Fresco or NEC?

 

[Valantar]

Just curious why you said this, as you are running the PA31 on your ASUS RAMPAGE FORMULA (which only has x1 spare slots) and you report how pleased you are with the performance. You actually said "It actually outperforms the native USB 3.0 ports on all other computers"

Out of interest do you have any benchmarks for the PA31 and the PVU3? I note that the PA31 uses an Asmedia chipset for USB 3.1, but does it also use the same chipset to handle USB 3.0? As I have seen some USB 3.1 cards with Asmedia chips for the 3.1 and NeC chips for standard 3.0


I see that the PVU3 uses a VLI chipset. Did you need separate drivers for this, or are they built into windows 10 or latest Linux builds? Do you think the VLI chipset is as fast as Fresco or NEC?

Nope. The motherboard has two x16 slots, only one of which is taken by the GPU. Thus, the PA31 can live happily in the other. As such, it runs at PCIe 2.0 x4. Slower than it could be, but faster than a single USB 3.1 - and sure as heck faster than USB 3.0.

Thus, my advice was based on simple logic: don't pay double what you have to for identical performance, unless it's an investment that pays off down the road.

I did not need drivers for either card. Shut down the PC, installed both cards, turned the PC back on, drivers are installed automatically in a few seconds. No issues whatsoever

I did some CrystalDiskMark runs off both USB controllers, I'll have a look if I screenshotted them.

Edit: seems like I didn't, unfortunately. The only reasonably fast external devices I have on hand right now is a Corsair Flash Voyager GT 32GB, which isn't nearly fast enough to see meaningful differences, and an old SATA2-based Intel 160GB SSD in a case. I'll run both through CDM, but don't expect miracles.

Edit2: