Fast and Furious Hullaballoo -- Sound and Fury Signifying Nothing?

[WhipperSnapper]

Am I the only one who thinks that partisans are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill with the Fast and Furious program?

2000 firearms...big deal! That's what, a tiny little fraction of a percent of the number of guns that the drug dealers have?

If the drug dealers had never received the 2000 guns, would they have been able to purchase them from other sources?

When the American agent was killed by one of those guns, would the result have been any different without the Fast and Furious program? Would the drug thugs have instead been armed with slingshots or bows-and-arrows? Give me a break!

The hullaballou over the Fast and Furious program seems like sound an fury signifying nothing.

 

[Smoblikat]

Youre absolutely right, if we hadnt sold them guns they would have taken their business elsewhere, and the agents might still have been killed. The fact is that we DID sell them guns and the guns we sold them that were supposed to be semi-controller were turned loose against our own agents. If we look at ghow things "could be" anyone in prison could say that if their mother hadnt given birth to them they wouldnt have commuted a crime, so she should be in jail not them.

 

[xj0hnx]

The problem is the big picture. They sold guns to cartels, and criminals and then turned around and used the statistics they inflated as part of their anti-gun platform.

 

[thraashman]

Actually the ATF sold guns to no one. Gun buyers purchased guns in a fashion that was suspicious but perfectly legal thanks to lax gun laws pushed by Republicans. The only thing that occurred was that due to gun laws the suspicious purchases had to be reported to law enforcement, which it was. However thanks to those lax gun laws there was nothing to prosecute or seize the guns on those suspicions.

 

[Matt1970]

Actually the ATF sold guns to no one. Gun buyers purchased guns in a fashion that was suspicious but perfectly legal thanks to lax gun laws pushed by Republicans. The only thing that occurred was that due to gun laws the suspicious purchases had to be reported to law enforcement, which it was. However thanks to those lax gun laws there was nothing to prosecute or seize the guns on those suspicions.

You are going to blame this on Republican Gun Laws? Nice try, but this was set up by the ATF.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) ran a series of "gunwalking" sting operations between 2006 and 2011. This was done under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner, a project intended to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico by interdicting straw purchasers and gun traffickers within the United States. "Gun walking" or "letting guns walk" was a tactic whereby the ATF "purposely allowed licensed firearms dealers to sell weapons to illegal straw buyers, hoping to track the guns to Mexican drug cartel leaders." The stated goal of allowing these purchases was to continue to track the firearms as they were transferred to higher-level traffickers and key figures in Mexican cartels, with the expectation that this would lead to their arrests and the dismantling of the cartels. The tactic was questioned during the operations by a number of people, including ATF field agents and cooperating licensed gun dealers. Operation Fast and Furious, by far the largest "gunwalking" probe, monitored the sale of over 2,000 firearms, of which nearly 700 were recovered as of October 20, 2011. A number of straw purchasers have been arrested and indicted; however, as of October 2011, none of the targeted high-level cartel figures have been arrested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

 

[sMiLeYz]

"A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. "

Source:
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

Arizona has the most lax gun laws in the country, Mexican cartels were having guys on the streets buy thousands of guns. Legally.

Which they then smuggled to Mexico.

The ATF couldn't stop them by law, so they were just tracking them. Until they lost track of a couple and which wound up killing an border patrol officer.

 

[sMiLeYz]

Gimme ten grand, and a plane ticket to Phoenix, AZ... I'll have enough automatic weapons and machine guns enough for a militia. That's how ridiculous the laws are there.

 

[bfdd]

well if their internal investigation is truth, they have no problem releasing all of the documents the Congressional Committee has asked for right?

 

[werepossum]

Gimme ten grand, and a plane ticket to Phoenix, AZ... I'll have enough automatic weapons and machine guns enough for a militia. That's how ridiculous the laws are there.

Automatic weapons are controlled by federal law, not state law. But please continue your laughably transparent slavish water carrying, 'cause we all know a few hundred dead Mexicans is an acceptable price to push an anti-gun proggie agenda.

 

[cybrsage]

So the new liberal defense of the Obama administration's selling of guns to cartels which got Americans killed is to blame it on republicans.

Lame.

 

[woolfe9999]

Am I the only one who thinks that partisans are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill with the Fast and Furious program?

2000 firearms...big deal! That's what, a tiny little fraction of a percent of the number of guns that the drug dealers have?

If the drug dealers had never received the 2000 guns, would they have been able to purchase them from other sources?

When the American agent was killed by one of those guns, would the result have been any different without the Fast and Furious program? Would the drug thugs have instead been armed with slingshots or bows-and-arrows? Give me a break!

The hullaballou over the Fast and Furious program seems like sound an fury signifying nothing.

The gun that killed agent Terry wasn't intentionally "walked" across the border anyway. Over 99% of those 2000 guns were not intentionally walked. They were tracked from known purchases from private dealers because the ATF didn't have probable cause to make arrests, so their only option was to track them. These purchases were legal absent a provable intent to bring those guns to the cartels, and they couldn't prove intent. Only 3 guns were intentionally walked, and none of those was linked to a crime. The entire thing is basically nonsense. It's the scandal that isn't.

 

[xBiffx]

I'd really like to know what Republican Gun Laws mean/are. Seems the Constitution is fairly non-doctrine and unaffiliated.

 

[thraashman]

"A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. "

Source:
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

Arizona has the most lax gun laws in the country, Mexican cartels were having guys on the streets buy thousands of guns. Legally.

Which they then smuggled to Mexico.

The ATF couldn't stop them by law, so they were just tracking them. Until they lost track of a couple and which wound up killing an border patrol officer.

Thank you. It's actually pretty easy to find detailed timelines of Fast and Furious to know what actually happened instead of relying on biased articles, incomplete Wikipedia entries, and the blatant lies which is the existence of Representative Issa.

I like Wikipedia as a source for quick and simple information or as a start for complete learning. It should never be your sole source of information for something as detailed as this.

 

[thraashman]

I'd really like to know what Republican Gun Laws mean/are. Seems the Constitution is fairly non-doctrine and unaffiliated.

Actually the Constitution is never as simple as some state. First Amendment, has limitations and not all speech or print is protected. There's a reason things like slander, libel, and speech meant to insight violence or panic are not protected. Search and seizure, ask our former President his views on wire tapping for that one. Right to bear arms, this is the only Constitutional Amendment where to read it as the GOP you have to ignore fully half of the written amendment. In addition it's not legal for me to own a nuclear weapon, but that's an armament. Plus the word infringe means to prevent, not to regulate or limit. Thus your right to bear arms is only infringed if you're completely denied not if the guns you're allowed to own are limited. Right to vote, guaranteed in the Constitution, except now in many states unless you have a state issued identification that has been made increasingly hard to obtain. And if you're unable to obtain it for even a fully valid reason, oh well too bad your rights are moot.

 

[cybrsage]

The second amendment is horribly written, too many commas used.

 

[xBiffx]

The second amendment is horribly written, too many commas used.

And in English, no less.

 

[Matt1970]

We might now a lot more if the leader of the most transparent administration in history did whip out his executive privelage. If all they were doing was trying to track leagal gun purchaces, why hide documents.

 

[bfdd]

The second amendment is horribly written, too many commas used.

I thought it was rather easy to understand. Not sure why commas would make it any harder.

 

[Matt1970]

"A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. "

Source:
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

Arizona has the most lax gun laws in the country, Mexican cartels were having guys on the streets buy thousands of guns. Legally.

Which they then smuggled to Mexico.

The ATF couldn't stop them by law, so they were just tracking them. Until they lost track of a couple and which wound up killing an border patrol officer.

Dont forget this paragraph.

As political pressure has mounted, ATF and Justice Department officials have reversed themselves. After initially supporting Group VII agents and denying the allegations, they have since agreed that the ATF purposefully chose not to interdict guns it lawfully could have seized. Holder testified in December that "the use of this misguided tactic is inexcusable, and it must never happen again."

 

[IBMer]

Why is it for Conservatives that Fast and Furious is it the gun suppliers fault for killing the victim? Do people want to pretend that they didn't have other guns and wouldn't have shot someone without the guns being tracked? Did the guns from the government mind control the drug dealers to shoot?

 

[xBiffx]

I thought it was rather easy to understand. Not sure why commas would make it any harder.

 

[Fern]

Fast and Furious Hullaballoo -- Sound and Fury Signifying Nothing?

I find it puzzling that an executive can have 14 people under his supervision recommended for punishment and he escapes blameless.

WTH is Holders job if not supervising his underlings and running his depts?

Fern

 

[blankslate]

Automatic weapons are controlled by federal law, not state law. But please continue your laughably transparent slavish water carrying, 'cause we all know a few hundred dead Mexicans is an acceptable price to push an anti-gun proggie agenda.

However, the Assault Weapons Ban has been allowed to expire and in the absence of that States have determined their own laws in regards to the "military style" weapons which are part of this discussion.

Federal law does still prohibit fully automatic weapons to the general public but there is now a lot of leeway with civilian versions of military firearms now.

 

[bfdd]

Actually the Constitution is never as simple as some state. First Amendment, has limitations and not all speech or print is protected. There's a reason things like slander, libel, and speech meant to insight violence or panic are not protected. Search and seizure, ask our former President his views on wire tapping for that one. Right to bear arms, this is the only Constitutional Amendment where to read it as the GOP you have to ignore fully half of the written amendment. In addition it's not legal for me to own a nuclear weapon, but that's an armament. Plus the word infringe means to prevent, not to regulate or limit. Thus your right to bear arms is only infringed if you're completely denied not if the guns you're allowed to own are limited. Right to vote, guaranteed in the Constitution, except now in many states unless you have a state issued identification that has been made increasingly hard to obtain. And if you're unable to obtain it for even a fully valid reason, oh well too bad your rights are moot.

regulation is prevention, are you fucking retarded? we'll regulate what guns you can have, you can't have these ones, you are PREVENTED from owning them. hmmm

also the fucking amendment is so goddamn simple, an organized militia is good for the state to have(which imo allows for the creation of State ran policing and military), no laws shall infringe on a citizens right to bare arms. Seriously don't get how it's so hard to understand. It's fucking simple, it just doesn't line up with your world view or the world view shared by many of this era so it gets skewed. To fucking bad.

 

[schneiderguy]

However, the Assault Weapons Ban has been allowed to expire and in the absence of that States have determined their own laws in regards to the "military style" weapons which are part of this discussion.

Federal law does still prohibit fully automatic weapons to the general public but there is now a lot of leeway with civilian versions of military firearms now.

If you knew anything about firearms you'd know that the Federal AWB didn't actually ban "military style" firearms (which happen to be functionally identical to "hunting style" firearms).

Even the California AWB which is far stricter didn't manage to ban "military style" firearms.