Farcry 2 results: GF100 Vs. GTX285

[RussianSensation]

If Amd has it's refresh 1 month after Fermi releases, I'd be very surprized.
A refresh will not make up for a 30% loss anyway.

Card to make a wager troll?
Have a paypal account?

I read through most of this thread and I am extremely confused why people are comparing GTX380 to 5870.

1. ATI's new strategy is to use a mid-upper GPU to compete against a monolithic NV core by combining 2 of these GPUs; and to scale down this GPU against NV's lower offerings.

2. NV's strategy is to manufacture the most complex single high-end GPU (and scale it down to lower product lines) and if necessary have options to produce a dual-GPU card (with some cut down specs of this GPU) to reclaim the performance crown.

In other words, what we had in the previous generation was:

4850 vs. 9800GTX+
4870 vs. GTX 260 216
4890 vs. GTX 275
? vs. GTX 285
4870 X2 vs. GTX 295 (but the prices were not equal since NV wants the performance crown regardless of price for most hardcore users)

Fast forward I would expect the performance order and pricing order to be as follows: 5870 < GTX 380 < 5970 < GTX 395 (?). If this is true, then NV has achieved what was expected (albeit late to market). If NV exceeds these targets (i.e., GTX 380 is much closer to 5970), then they would have exceeded my expectations.

5850 vs. GTX 340 (?)
5870 vs. GTX 360
? vs. GTX 380
5970 vs. GTX 395 (?)

Since ATI is pricing their 5870 for $399, NV is likely to price their GTX 360 (with faster performance) in the $399+ price bracket. Then GTX 380 will occupy the $499+ price bracket. GTX 395 will duke it out with 5970. The GTX 380 would likely be what GTX285 was i(i.e., in that it was not as expensive as the 4870 X2, but faster than 4890, giving consumers the fastest single-gpu offering).

I think assuming that 5870 was intended to be as fast as the GTX380 is simply incorrect since that was never AMD's strategy. If NV can't outperform 5870 with GTX380 by a significant margin (20-25%), then I would be surprised.

 

[happy medium]

Well, I'd prefer to have my dad beat up your dad.

But sure, I'd card to make a wager with you. You did question the right person for a bet as I'm game.

I will be upfront about one thing- it's not completely fair because I do have contacts in the industry (in manufacturing across Asia, no direct contacts at NV or AMD), but if you need to do this to sleep at night, PM me with details and we can get this ball rolling. I want your top bet amount you're willing to gamble, and the exact details. Don't contact me with some a scrappy bet, if I'm going to be spending time researching, bothering my family in China and Taiwan, I want a $10,000USD+ profit out of this. I might consider a $5,000 wager. Shoot me a line.

Why would you have to research something you already know?
So you are saying you are gonna bet me ,but are addmitting you don't know and have to research?

TROLL!

 

[toyota]

the 5890 vs. GTX 395 (?) would not make any sense because that would be an Nvidia refresh of the their dual gpu card(gtx390(?)) that would already compete with the 5970. a 5890 would just be a faster single card so that would be a competitor of the gtx380.

 

[happy medium]

I read through most of this thread and I am extremely confused why people are comparing GTX380 to 5870.

1. ATI's new strategy is to use a mid-upper GPU to compete against a monolithic NV core by combining 2 of these GPUs; and to scale down this GPU against NV's lower offerings.

2. NV's strategy is to manufacture the most complex single high-end GPU (and scale it down to lower product lines) and if necessary have options to produce a dual-GPU card (with some cut down specs of this GPU) to reclaim the performance crown.

In other words, what we had in the previous generation was:

4850 vs. 9800GTX+
4870 vs. GTX 260 216


4890 vs. GTX 275
? vs. GTX 285
4870 X2 vs. GTX 295 (but the prices were not equal since NV wants the performance crown regardless of price for most hardcore users)

Fast forward I would expect the performance order and pricing order to be as follows: 5870 < GTX 380 < 5970 < GTX 395 (?). If this is true, then NV has achieved what was expected (albeit late to market). If NV exceeds these targets (i.e., GTX 380 is much closer to 5970), then they would have exceeded my expectations.

5850 vs. GTX 340 (?)
5870 vs. GTX 360
? vs. GTX 380
5970 vs. GTX 395 (?)

Since ATI is pricing their 5870 for $399, NV is likely to price their GTX 360 (with faster performance) in the $399+ price bracket. Then GTX 380 will occupy the $499+ price bracket. GTX 395 will duke it out with 5970. The GTX 380 would likely be what GTX285 was i(i.e., in that it was not as expensive as the 4870 X2, but faster than 4890, giving consumers the fastest single-gpu offering).

I think assuming that 5870 was intended to be as fast as the GTX380 is simply incorrect since that was never AMD's strategy. If NV can't outperform 5870 with GTX380 by a significant margin (20-25%), then I would be surprised.

So what competes with a dual gpu gtx 360? A refreshed hd 5890?
So you are saying AMD will never own the single card crown again?

 

[Silverforce11]

83 fps vs 84 fps in FC2, basically no difference.

If nV price their 360 at around $400, they will be losing heaps of $$. The core is much bigger and harder to produce, ie low yields. The bus is 384, requiring a more complex pcb. The power drain and heat is higher, requiring more or better VRM and heatsink solutions. Do the maths, theres no way they will profit with GF360 below $500 and GF380 below $600.

ATI on the other had, can in fact lower their prices and still be profitable. Given that the 360 is not much if any faster than 5870 and the 380 will be well below the 5970, ATI has nothing to worry about imo. Their next refresh is coming soon with the 5890.

 

[Jd007]

83 fps vs 84 fps in FC2, basically no difference.

If nV price their 360 at around $400, they will be losing heaps of $$. The core is much bigger and harder to produce, ie low yields. The bus is 384, requiring a more complex pcb. The power drain and heat is higher, requiring more or better VRM and heatsink solutions. Do the maths, theres no way they will profit with GF360 below $500 and GF380 below $600.

ATI on the other had, can in fact lower their prices and still be profitable. Given that the 360 is not much if any faster than 5870 and the 380 will be well below the 5970, ATI has nothing to worry about imo. Their next refresh is coming soon with the 5890.

nVidia could be selling the GF100 chips at a loss at first, due to the low yields, in order to compete with ATI.

 

[Silverforce11]

So what competes with a dual gpu gtx 360? A refreshed hd 5890?
So you are saying AMD will never own the single card crown again?

Nothing, because there won't be one with full specs. The 360 by itself is going to draw 225 to 250W already. The 380 is anywhere 250-300.

How are they going to get 2 of those below 300W? They can't.

 

[happy medium]

Nothing, because there won't be one with full specs. The 360 by itself is going to draw 225 to 250W already. The 380 is anywhere 250-300.

How are they going to get 2 of those below 300W? They can't.

I havent seen official power consuption figures. Care to link me?
So they couldn't exceed the ATX spec?

 

[Keysplayr]

83 fps vs 84 fps in FC2, basically no difference.

If nV price their 360 at around $400, they will be losing heaps of $$. The core is much bigger and harder to produce, ie low yields. The bus is 384, requiring a more complex pcb. The power drain and heat is higher, requiring more or better VRM and heatsink solutions. Do the maths, theres no way they will profit with GF360 below $500 and GF380 below $600.

ATI on the other had, can in fact lower their prices and still be profitable. Given that the 360 is not much if any faster than 5870 and the 380 will be well below the 5970, ATI has nothing to worry about imo. Their next refresh is coming soon with the 5890.

Ok, you're losing me here a little bit. Why do "we" care who is profitable or not again?
Are you more interested in the hardware or the companies that make the hardware?
As long as competition is there and prices get knocked down to within Earths orbit, we should be happy. Don't worry yourself about profits. If you're a stockholder, go find yourself a financial forum somewhere.

BTW: Your description of the Nvidia card above makes it sound like a higher quality card. Better VRM's, more complex, bigger die. I know that wasn't your intention, I just thought it was kind of humorous.

 

[toyota]

Nothing, because there won't be one with full specs. The 360 by itself is going to draw 225 to 250W already. The 380 is anywhere 250-300.

How are they going to get 2 of those below 300W? They can't.

funny how ATI doubled almost EVERYTHING about the 4890 and still ended up with equal power consumption going to 40nm but according to you Nvidia, who is actually dropping from 512 to 384 bit and having less tmu/sp ratio will have their power consumption at 300 watts for a single card. mark my words that there will be a dual gpu card of some sort(probably 2 gtx360 gpus) and their fastest single gpu card will be around 225 tdp.

 

[Keysplayr]

Nothing, because there won't be one with full specs. The 360 by itself is going to draw 225 to 250W already. The 380 is anywhere 250-300.

How are they going to get 2 of those below 300W? They can't.

You have power figures! Please let us know where you got them and linkify it.
But please, no rumor sites.
Many thanks!

 

[Silverforce11]

Ok, you're losing me here a little bit. Why do "we" care who is profitable or not again?
Are you more interested in the hardware or the companies that make the hardware?
As long as competition is there and prices get knocked down to within Earths orbit, we should be happy. Don't worry yourself about profits. If you're a stockholder, go find yourself a financial forum somewhere.

It means they wont be selling 360 at $400 or 380 at $500. They will most likely restrict sales to consumers, very low volume if they are going to be making a huge loss, and focus on HPC market with tesla.

It means this generation, ATI will have complete dominance, no competition = bad for us all.

nV's refusal to split their architecture, have two different chips, 1 for HPC servers and 1 for consumers means the GF100 core is bloated with features neither market uses but are paying for. Doesnt add up when your main competitor is going so lean and mean.

Edit: Better? If you equate to being hotter, using more power for similar performance.. funny indeed.

 

[thilanliyan]

if I'm going to be spending time researching, bothering my family in China and Taiwan, I want a $10,000USD+ profit out of this. I might consider a $5,000 wager. Shoot me a line.

You're bluffing already!!!

 

[Silverforce11]

You are dreaming if you think their fastest fermi will be 225w. 3.2B trans core, 50% bigger than cypress, a bigger bus & higher amount of ram chips. 2x 8 pin.

360 with 225W, maybe.

Anyhow, silly nv claims of 20% faster than 5870 is now 0.5% faster in FC2. This keeps getting worse for NV, no wonder they are keeping a tight lid on this.

 

[Keysplayr]

It means they wont be selling 360 at $400 or 380 at $500. They will most likely restrict sales to consumers, very low volume if they are going to be making a huge loss, and focus on HPC market with tesla.

It means this generation, ATI will have complete dominance, no competition = bad for us all.

nV's refusal to split their architecture, have two different chips, 1 for HPC servers and 1 for consumers means the GF100 core is bloated with features neither market uses but are paying for. Doesnt add up when your main competitor is going so lean and mean.

NV's "refusal" eh? You think because ATI went "lean and cheap" automagically commands NV to follow suit? Refusal is an interesting choice of words to be sure. Like ATI and NV are supposed to be on the same track or something. Should NV redesign to VEC5 shaders to? Are they refusing to do that as well? Why don't you take a gander at all the things ATI refused to do over the past 3 years. Yeah, it's a head scratcher to be sure.

 

[Keysplayr]

You are dreaming if you think their fastest fermi will be 225w. 3.2B trans core, 50% bigger than cypress, a bigger bus & higher amount of ram chips. 2x 8 pin.

360 with 225W, maybe.

Anyhow, silly nv claims of 20% faster than 5870 is now 0.5% faster in FC2. This keeps getting worse for NV, no wonder they are keeping a tight lid on this.

Hey, if you can stand here guessing all day long, I guess it's ok for others to dream.

 

[Silverforce11]

NV's "refusal" eh? You think because ATI went "lean and cheap" automagically commands NV to follow suit? Refusal is an interesting choice of words to be sure. Like ATI and NV are supposed to be on the same track or something. Should NV redesign to VEC5 shaders to? Are they refusing to do that as well? Why don't you take a gander at all the things ATI refused to do over the past 3 years. Yeah, it's a head scratcher to be sure.

Why wouldnt you make 2 separate chips for 2 different purposes? Sounds like egoism and arrogance on Jens part. How many consumers actually do HPC work, where 2 precision matters? Games certainly dont care much for nVs architecture, which is why a chip thats 50% bigger performs at similar levels to cypress.

The power claims are just obvious, yes its speculation, but its based on some solid assumptions. Card makers don't just put in 2x 8 power plugs for the looks, its a waste of resources and $, when you are in a cut throat market, you try to be as lean as possible, thus, the only reason it has 2x8 is because it actually uses a LOT of power.

Sure, keep on dreaming all you want. I really wanted nV to price/performance competitive this round, yet they keep digging a deeper hole for themselves.

Monolithic cores are just inefficient given the same manufacturing processes. Maybe it requires nV being spanked so hard for them to realize this for the next round.

 

[Keysplayr]

Why wouldnt you make 2 separate chips for 2 different purposes? Sounds like egoism and arrogance on Jens part. How many consumers actually do HPC work, where 2 precision matters? Games certainly dont care much for nVs architecture, which is why a chip thats 50% bigger performs at similar levels to cypress.

The power claims are just obvious, yes its speculation, but its based on some solid assumptions. Card makers don't just put in 2x 8 power plugs for the looks, its a waste of resources and $, when you are in a cut throat market, you try to be as lean as possible, thus, the only reason it has 2x8 is because it actually uses a LOT of power.

Sure, keep on dreaming all you want. I really wanted nV to price/performance competitive this round, yet they keep digging a deeper hole for themselves.

Monolithic cores are just inefficient given the same manufacturing processes. Maybe it requires nV being spanked so hard for them to realize this for the next round.

"Why wouldnt you make 2 separate chips for 2 different purposes?" Are you asking this of Nvidia or ATI? Oh, wait. That's right. ATI hasn't really bothered too much with any other purpose. And that's THEIR call. Sounds like maybe ATI could "use" an ego problem, and a little arrogance.
The power claims are not obvious. Especially since it seems to have eluded you that there aren't 2x8 PCI-e connectors on GF100. There is 1x6 and 1x8. Have all your calculated assumptions been based on that?? Maybe GTX395 or whatever they will be calling it will have 2x8.
And, how do you "know" GF100 is monolithic? Because that's what you've heard? Could be. But who knows. Hey, we all will soon enough. Well for most of us anyway.

 

[Janooo]

Ok, you're losing me here a little bit. Why do "we" care who is profitable or not again?
Are you more interested in the hardware or the companies that make the hardware?
As long as competition is there and prices get knocked down to within Earths orbit, we should be happy. Don't worry yourself about profits. If you're a stockholder, go find yourself a financial forum somewhere.

BTW: Your description of the Nvidia card above makes it sound like a higher quality card. Better VRM's, more complex, bigger die. I know that wasn't your intention, I just thought it was kind of humorous.

NV is no charity. If they won't make money they will stop selling.

 

[Silverforce11]

Dunno about you, but when i buy a GPU, i use it to play games and do a bit of video encoding on the side. I would consider that the vast majority of consumers. Sure, a small &#37; may want to F@H but thats really it. Why pay more for an architecture that is not suited to your needs?

This is why nV is going to hurt big time this round. CUDA cores, pfft, gimmick is gimmick.

We will know the full details soon enough. Lets agree on that.

 

[Obsoleet]

Why would you have to research something you already know?
So you are saying you are gonna bet me ,but are addmitting you don't know and have to research?

TROLL!

You alright? I said I'd take your bet. How old are you? There's a difference between speculating on computer parts, and betting thousands of dollars. Of course I would want to check all my sources to get the best possible outcome. It sounds like you're the rash, hot-headed one here shooting off at the mouth.

From the obvious fact you are a tool, PM me when you're ready to set up a bet, I really want to take your money.

You're bluffing already!!!

I am? Try me. Not all of us are hurting in this economy, it's just you.

 

[nitromullet]

Dunno about you, but when i buy a GPU, i use it to play games and do a bit of video encoding on the side. I would consider that the vast majority of consumers. Sure, a small % may want to F@H but thats really it. Why pay more for an architecture that is not suited to your needs?

This is why nV is going to hurt big time this round. CUDA cores, pfft, gimmick is gimmick.

We will know the full details soon enough. Lets agree on that.

There is a whole other market out there for CUDA. The type of organizations that will buy 2,500 PS3 consoles to build a supercomputer might not be a bad market to capture. Clearly, they have some money to spend.

I don't really think NV really cares who pays their bills - gamers or professionals... Ideally, I'm sure they'd take everyone's money.

 

[Daedalus685]

Dunno about you, but when i buy a GPU, i use it to play games and do a bit of video encoding on the side. I would consider that the vast majority of consumers. Sure, a small % may want to F@H but thats really it. Why pay more for an architecture that is not suited to your needs?

This is why nV is going to hurt big time this round. CUDA cores, pfft, gimmick is gimmick.

We will know the full details soon enough. Lets agree on that.

Well... the physicist in me would like to dispute the gimmick part greatly... Also, these being useful for science is the only chance I have of trying to get my lab to buy a couple I could test at home and not those 'silly' Tesla ones.. lol

As a consumer I'd love to see these kick ass.. the better they are the cheaper/more powerful my next upgrade is. /bored if they don't force prices to come down.. my wallet needs a vacation.


There is word floating around about this Sunday being an important date.. Forums implying that it is some announcement day? Is there any validity in that at all? Where does the date come from?

 

[BFG10K]

I can&#8217;t wait to see what this card can do, and I hope the launch drivers don&#8217;t suck as bad as they did on the G80.

 

[Daedalus685]

There is a whole other market out there for CUDA. The type of organizations that will buy 2,500 PS3 consoles to build a supercomputer might not be a bad market to capture. Clearly, they have some money to spend.

I don't really think NV really cares who pays their bills - gamers or professionals... Ideally, I'm sure they'd take everyone's money.

It is not unusual in my line of work to pay dozens of times more than "consumer" prices for something "qualified." The amount of money a company that gets a strangle hold on that market could harvest is absolutely mind bending. It is no wonder they are pushing it so hard.. Obviously as a gamer I want my fast card out yesterday.. but I'd also like to see the company make enough case to give me one tomorrow as well.

I can&#8217;t wait to see what this card can do, and I hope the launch drivers don&#8217;t suck as bad as they did on the G80.

Heh, now what kind of techie would any of us be if we could "wait" to see what these (read: any tech I have ever head about before I had it in my hand) things could do...