Fanless Cooling For Haswell?

[fb02521]

Old Office System used primarily on a few professional programs, viewing YouTube and vids. Aim of build is optimal snappiness and QUIET.

Silverstone TJ7 Open Case without side pannels
Core Duo E8400
Scythe Katana fanless cooling tower (small to medium tower)
XFX low end fanless vid card
Seasonic Year 2008 upper end 500W PS
Intel 520 256 SSD

I ran this system with two 120mm. ceiling case fans blowing into the Scythe Katana and one 92mm rear fan blowing into the Scythe Katana. Fans about 4 to 6 inches from heat sink probably blowing around 1200 rpm. System was whisper quiet with CPU temps 35-42degree C generally.

System was slowing down and in trying my first overclock with the E8400 (was watching temps), system blew up in some way, refused to boot.

New build
Silverstone TJ7 open case--same fan set up as above
Haswell I5 4670
8x2 Corsair Vengence
Intel 4600 vid without vid card
Noctua NH12 U 12S Heat Sink
Asus Z87 Pro MB
Samsung 840 Pro 256 SSD

In effort to keep system quiet am wondering whether fan really necessary with non-overclock low processor use type computing with this huge Noctua heat sink given there is a fair amount of air blowing into the sink from 4-6 inches away.

 

[dma0991]

If you'd want a silent system, you need to keep the case closed as it isolates the internal noise. You will need a minimum of one case fan, even with a passive cooled system unless your case was designed to take advantage of the hot air rises principle. Just place one fan as an exhaust, nearest to the CPU heatsink. Thermalright HR-02 is a better choice as it was built for passively cooling a CPU, provided that there is incidental airflow in the case.

 

[Aikouka]

You will need a minimum of one case fan, even with a passive cooled system unless your case was designed to take advantage of the hot air rises principle.

Unless your case is designed like a giant heatsink. I own one, and it's pretty much a giant heatsink on the one side that connects via heat pipes to the processor. The best part? Absolutely no noise at all.

 

[aigomorla]

heat sinks were not designed to be run passive.

Even the ones listed as passive assume passive only applies at heat sink direct... not a fan which is 10 inches away....

@Aikouka... ive owned the zalman case... it was OK until overclocking.

passive systems are more painful then what they are worth.
And also VERY EXPENSIVE... a real passive system i built came out almost on par with a watercooled system.

Which is why i dont own passive systems anymore.. id rather watercool at that point.

 

[fb02521]

Txs for response. Put Q different way:

My system was able to sufficiently cool the e8400 with Scythe Katana heat sink without a heatsink fan.
I have total of 3 fans in TJ07 case and they were (would be) 4-6 inches away from heatsink each blowing almost directly at heat sink. the MB processor combo really generated insufficient heat to worry about closing case or case air dynamics.

So Q--does Haswell generate more heat than the E8400 core duo? Seems to me if heat generated is same or less than E8400 I might get away with at least booting without a fan on the Noctua heat sink, and watch temps quick shut down if it gets too hot. Anybody have feel for this, or is it dumb Q since I'd like to avoid frying this $220 processor?

Anecdote: I tried with my first E8400 to boot it without a heat sink just to see if it would new build would boot (then I planned to quickly turn it off). It fried to death in 40 sec. approx without any heat sink.

 

[Kenmitch]

So Q--does Haswell generate more heat than the E8400 core duo? Seems to me if heat generated is same or less than E8400 I might get away with at least booting without a fan on the Noctua heat sink, and watch temps quick shut down if it gets too hot. Anybody have feel for this, or is it dumb Q since I'd like to avoid frying this $220 processor?

The chip will throttle if needed to protect itself. Booting into window you'll be fine, when loaded you'd have to try it and see what the temps are like.

 

[Aikouka]

@Aikouka... ive owned the zalman case... it was OK until overclocking.

Haha I remember that Zalman case! I wanted one just for kicks, but I would never spend that much on a case! *Looks over at his 900D* :whiste:

But yeah, the Streacom cases are mostly designed for lower power setups. The larger cases can fit somewhat hotter-running processors in them, but you still can't go crazy with it. I use it for a HTPC, which doesn't really need overclocking or anything like that, and it works great.

 

[BrightCandle]

A normal heatsink without a fan can cool about 5W of heat. A Core 2 Duo was likely getting slow and eventually died due to the thermal problems caused by such an incredibly poor cooling system, which resulted in it continuously throttling and running at its maximum specified temperature that brought on thermal death of the CPU.

It makes no sense to run a computer that way, it needs active cooling because these are CPUs that are much higher than the 5W or so a passive heatsink can dissipate. The way to go quiet is to get big heatsinks with a big fan and run it on a low speed. You are better off with 4 case fans all running at 800rpm than 1 at 2000 rpm. They produce the same airflow but the 4 fans are significantly quieter. If you want to go quieter still that will require a custom water cooling loop, and those aren't cheap or easy to setup.

 

[dawp]

the last time I can remember a main stream cpu running without a fan on the heatsink was back in the 486 era. even then it was the lower end ones.

 

[Cerb]

Change to a nice newer mATX case, such as a Fractal Design Define Mini. Others, too, but that one will be hard to go wrong with.

Use a big heatsink, made for passive operation itself. A Thermalright Macho will run fine with just case fans, and won't block anything important.

Don't go taking a fan off of a heatsink that really needs one. The dense fins won't work very well without the forced air flow.

the last time I can remember a main stream cpu running without a fan on the heatsink was back in the 486 era. even then it was the lower end ones.

That's just a matter of cost. Passive heatsinks tend to be =>1.5lb, and $40+.

Today, in North America, the options are pretty much the Thermalright Macho (needs decent case airflow to perform well), Silverstone HE02 (huge, blocks RAM, and only cools better with worse air flow, it seems), or the noFan CR95 (also huge, blocks RAM and 1-2 expansion slots). The Macho won't have to be removed to add or change RAM.

 

[mooncancook]

I would never consider passive cooling on my cpu. Instead I would suggest the opposite: install more fans. Two fans running at 50% is always better than one fan running at 80-100%. Without a CPU cooling fan, it just mean that your other case fans have to work a little harder. CPU cooling fan can be the quietest fan in the case.

I just finished building my i5-4670 non-OC gaming htpc. I used the CoolerMaster GeminII low profile cooler and replaced the stock 120mm fan with a Noctua 140mm PWM fan. I set the fan control in the bios to run between 20% and 70%. In actual use the fan pretty much stays at 20% and it is practically silent. With the CPU taken care of, I set the rest of the 6 case fans to 50% and it is very quiet. What i have noticed is that for a quality fan, I couldn't tell any difference in noise level between 10 to 50% which is what I consider silent, above 60% I start noticing increasing wind noise. The point is, having more fan running at low speed is the ideal way to have a quite and cool system, and it is worthwhile to spend a little more on quality fans.

 

[fleshconsumed]

If you really want to go fanless and money is no object, this http://www.silentpcreview.com/NoFan_CR-95C_Copper will do the trick for you.

A much cheaper alternative is to get Scythe Ninja (if you can still find it) or Thermalright HR-02/Macho and duct them to a slow moving exhaust fan. Trust me, that will be more than enough to cool the CPU. I've put Scythe Ninja on my 3570k ran prome95 on my 3570k (non overclocked) for hours with just a 1000rpm Nexus 120mm exhaust fan (I did not put any fans on the heatsink itself) and my temps never exceeded 66 degrees. A big honking heatsink and a little air is all that's needed.

 

[fb02521]

If you really want to go fanless and money is no object, this http://www.silentpcreview.com/NoFan_CR-95C_Copper will do the trick for you.

A much cheaper alternative is to get Scythe Ninja (if you can still find it) or Thermalright HR-02/Macho and duct them to a slow moving exhaust fan. Trust me, that will be more than enough to cool the CPU. I've put Scythe Ninja on my 3570k ran prome95 on my 3570k (non overclocked) for hours with just a 1000rpm Nexus 120mm exhaust fan (I did not put any fans on the heatsink itself) and my temps never exceeded 66 degrees. A big honking heatsink and a little air is all that's needed.

Flesh--can u explain ur post? u duct the exhaust fan to the heat sink. Does this mean u have a plastic or rubber duct running from heat sink to ur case exhaust fan? This would be somewhat similar to my prior E8400 set up although I had my 3 case fans creating a fair amount of turbulance by blowing directly at the Scythe Katana.

I sit in front of work computer 10 hrs./day. Quiet is important. Even with my almost inaudible TJ7 E8400 system running now for 5 yrs I have ringing in my left ear that is nearest computer.

I became suspicious of cooling requirements of my system when i noticed that the Scythe Katana fins with fan on were totally cold even down around the heating pipes. So, I removed fan, same thing. Totally cold fins on the heat sink.

I therefore thought that with my l low stress computing that heatsink fan unnecessary.

Am thinking that E8400 has to generate more heat than Haswell, but, unknown

My present thought is maybe to experiment with Noctua--attach fan, check temps, move fan gradually away from heat sink, see if fan really necessary.

Txs. to all for comments.

 

[fb02521]

I would never consider passive cooling on my cpu. Instead I would suggest the opposite: install more fans. Two fans running at 50% is always better than one fan running at 80-100%. Without a CPU cooling fan, it just mean that your other case fans have to work a little harder. CPU cooling fan can be the quietest fan in the case.

I just finished building my i5-4670 non-OC gaming htpc. I used the CoolerMaster GeminII low profile cooler and replaced the stock 120mm fan with a Noctua 140mm PWM fan. I set the fan control in the bios to run between 20% and 70%. In actual use the fan pretty much stays at 20% and it is practically silent. With the CPU taken care of, I set the rest of the 6 case fans to 50% and it is very quiet. What i have noticed is that for a quality fan, I couldn't tell any difference in noise level between 10 to 50% which is what I consider silent, above 60% I start noticing increasing wind noise. The point is, having more fan running at low speed is the ideal way to have a quite and cool system, and it is worthwhile to spend a little more on quality fans.

Moon I got near quiet when I reduced #of fans to 3 + Seasonic PS fan. 4 fans all running 1000 to 1200 rpm i start to hear noise.

 

[fleshconsumed]

Flesh--can u explain ur post? u duct the exhaust fan to the heat sink. Does this mean u have a plastic or rubber duct running from heat sink to ur case exhaust fan? This would be somewhat similar to my prior E8400 set up although I had my 3 case fans creating a fair amount of turbulance by blowing directly at the Scythe Katana.

I sit in front of work computer 10 hrs./day. Quiet is important. Even with my almost inaudible TJ7 E8400 system running now for 5 yrs I have ringing in my left ear that is nearest computer.

I became suspicious of cooling requirements of my system when i noticed that the Scythe Katana fins with fan on were totally cold even down around the heating pipes. So, I removed fan, same thing. Totally cold fins on the heat sink.

I therefore thought that with my l low stress computing that heatsink fan unnecessary.

Am thinking that E8400 has to generate more heat than Haswell, but, unknown

My present thought is maybe to experiment with Noctua--attach fan, check temps, move fan gradually away from heat sink, see if fan really necessary.

Txs. to all for comments.

If you really are that sensetive to noise, a lot of us are, no shame in admitting it, then you need to join www.silentpcreview.com forums. The forums have become kind of stale in the last couple of years since being quiet is no longer a niche like it used to be so there is less of a need for a dedicated forum about silencing computers, however there are still people actively reading it and giving advice. It might take several days or even a week to receive a reply, but it is still your best bet for anything quiet PC related.

In the past I've "ducted" my exhaust fans to the CPU heatsink. Basically I did something like this:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/ductn.jpg/
http://www.madshrimps.be/files/images/articles/HeatsinkRoundupQ12006-jmke-10562.jpg
http://img1.imageshack.us/img1/6117/dscn43007wc.jpg

You can do it too, it's really easy to do, all you need is some cardboard, scalpen and some duct tape. However, I find that even ducts are no longer necessary. Ever since intel introduced Core 2 Duo the CPUs have been getting more and more efficient and cooler running. In fact the last time I've ever had a fan blowing on my CPU was Pentium 3.0C and even that was only because I used CPU fan to also cool my videocard. Starting with Core 2 Duos and Core 2 Quads I've only used passive Scythe Ninja's to cool my CPUs. The only thing I do now is I stack empty fan frames to move my exhaust fan a little closer to the CPU heatsink, I do not even duct it anymore.

In general with near idle usage such as web browsing, doing office tasks I find that a single 700-800 exhaust fan with Ninja is enough to keep the system cool. If you're doing anything CPU intensive for long periods of time such as gaming or crunching numbers a single 1000-1100 RPM fan is more than enough to keep the whole system cool. You just need to make sure that one, you have a big tower heatsink such as Scythe Ninja or Thermalright HR02/Macho and two, that your exhaust fan pulls air through your heatsink. The only reason you would need more than a single exhaust fan in a system is if you're gaming a lot and you're using power hungry video card, then you would need a second fan to exhaust all of that hot air from your case.

The Scythe Katana you're currently using is a fine heatsink, but it's not optimal for passive cooling. Your case, Temjin TJ07 is also kind of lacking because it only has 92mm rear exhaust fans, although it does have 120mm fans on top that you can use to passively cool your CPU. If you have the budget I would advice you to get a new case with 120mm rear exhaust fan such as Corsair 550D, or P280 (it has really flimsy side panels, I had to modify mine to make them stop rattling), or P183 (still a good case, but kind of a pain in you know where to work with), get a tower heatsink such as Scythe Ninja or HR02 Macho, and just use rear exhaust fan to cool your CPU. This combination has worked wonders for me for the last 5-6 years and I've cooled Q9550/3570K without any problems whatsoever. Since you'll be using integrated graphics, a single exhaust fan is all you need in your system.

 

[mooncancook]

Moon I got near quiet when I reduced #of fans to 3 + Seasonic PS fan. 4 fans all running 1000 to 1200 rpm i start to hear noise.

I never said adding more fans than necessary is a good idea. What I meant is having more fans running at lower rpm is better than less fans at higher rpm in term of noise. If 3 fans running at 1200 rpm get the job done and they are quiet enough then there is no need for 4 fans. On the other hand if they are a bit noisy, you might want to try 4 fans running at 800 rpm.

Regarding the topic of passive cooling of CPU, unless you are running a notebook-type of low power CPU or you have one of those expensive passive cooling cases, it is a good idea to have a fan specifically for the CPU. With a good cooler, the CPU fan only need to run at very low RPM. For my HTPC setup with the 4670, my Noctua 140mm fan only runs at 260rpm at idle, and not much higher at load. It is whisper quiet and I don't have to worry about the CPU overheating. The rest of my case fans do not have to blow a whole lot of air to keep the CPU cool.

 

[fb02521]

Posting on my cooling decisions new system. Q was: is CPU fan necessary for I5 Haswell 4670 with my low cpu use--non-overclock office system in Silverstone TJ7 Case?

Answer: unnecessary.

New build with much Forum help finally up and running:
Silverstone TJ7 open case without side panels
Haswell I5 4670
8x2 Corsair Vengence
Intel 4600 vid without vid card
Noctua NH12 U 12S Heat Sink
Asus Z87 Pro MB
Samsung 840 Pro 256 SSD

As many pointed out--and txs. for comments! Very helpful!--if any fan runs it should be CPU fan as this finally sinks into my newbie brain. Unfortunately, as it turns out, unable to control with Asus MB Fan Expert the 120 mm CPU fan that comes with with Noctua NH12U 12S Heat Sink. This fan runs at 1300 rpm--too loud.

I unplugged this CPU fan to see what happens to CPU temps with other case fans running. Nothing happened. 29 degree C before. 29 degree C after. Turned off other case fans. Same thing. Temp remained same. MB temp rose from 26C to 27C.

For now I have 92mm back fan running at 900 rpm controlled by Fan Expert to increase rpm 4 inches away from heat sink blowing into heat sink, and one 120 mm ceiling fan 2.5 inches above heat sink at 700 rpm. temp ranges 29C to 32C max so far.
Final decision will be to get new CPU fan at about 700 rpm and turn off other case fans except power fan.

Much txs. to Cerb and others for comments. System is nice. Everything snaps much faster than E8400. Everything including my internet speed chess more pleasant experience. Liking Windows 8 over Windows 7. 2008 Seasonic 500W continues to hum on!

 

[Cerb]

Get a 4-pin PWM fan, and you should have no problem controlling via FanExpert or Speedfan. It seems common today that 3-pin fans are often full-on, so the software can only read RPMs, not control them.

 

[Belial88]

You can run plenty of heatsinks passively, ie no fans. Generally speaking, the better the heatsink, the better it'll do fanless. However, larger single towers perform better than high-end dual towers in fanless and 1 fan configurations - the HR-02 Macho (which is super cheap in europe) is a mid-range heatsink, but it outperforms any other air cooler in fanless configuration.

It also is marginally quieter than dual towers, which are always marginally louder than single towers. Of course, 99% of noise is from the fan used, rather than the heatsink.

I run 4.7ghz@1.47v on haswell on an h110, and I hit 85C on a hotday during AVX stress testing like prime95, but when I'm not stress testing or benching, I will actually turn off my fans. When I stream, I set them on low.

Idle temps mean nothing. You have to go by load temps. During general usage/browsing, etc, you should be able to run with fans off even with aggressive overclocks. It's really stress testing that requires higher fan speeds, if you aren't stress testing than there's little reason to run max fans.

Like I have 11 fans in my system, but I turn all of them off except when stress testing, and 2 on low (rear fans, not even the heatsink fans) when gaming.

Also, there's no reason to go for PWM. Most modern motherboards will allow you to control 3pin fans just like 4 pin via BIOS and software, and Speedfan will control 3pin and 4pin fans just fine. Even if you don't use software, just buy a $5-35 fan controller, and walla, all of your fans are suddenly controllable fans. I'd rather spend $25 on a sweet fan controller that looks great, has temp diodes, and controls 10+ fans (even more if you mod it), and spend only ~$5 per fan, than spend $25+ for each fan. Just a no brainer.

I know your Asus Z87 (i assume Z87A) has 3 pin fan control, for example. Oh, and PWM fans seem to click and make annoying sounds a lot more than their 3pin brethen. They use more expensive motors and most companies just use crappy motors and charge you more for the 'fan control'. Still today, the best value fan to buy is the Yate Loon $5, and the best fan period is the Gentle Typhoon $15. A lot of fans are just completely awful and overpriced (noctua fans, for example, are mediocore, overpriced, and only do well at a certain, specific setting).

 

[_Rick_]

In that setup passive use should pose no issue. Most of the time, the CPU will run around <10W, which a big heat sink in a ventilated case can dissipate easily. If you do load it up for longer intervals, you might run into throttling, but I doubt it.
My i5 650 has been running without a fan on the Scythe Yasya for a few years now, and as it does server duty, it's at most using half a core to do some video transcoding, or running full tilt for a few minutes, when compiling (Gentoo Linux). Never ran into thermal limits, but the case is well ventilated and roomy - YMMV.

 

[Cerb]

Also, there's no reason to go for PWM. Most modern motherboards will allow you to control 3pin fans just like 4 pin via BIOS and software, and Speedfan will control 3pin and 4pin fans just fine.

So, you didn't read the previous post (by the OP), and haven't used many Asus of GB motherboards within the last several years, I see. The issue one of hardware support or configuration, which Speedfan can't get around, that some motherboards have power duty cycle control and/or voltage control, but some don't, only controlling via 4-pin PWM (often, it depends on fan port, with 1-2 controllable). Asus has realized it's a problem and is going for full support from now on, and GB Has quietly added voltage control back into their OC boards, but there are still some gaps.

Edit: that said, the Z87 Pro should be able to do it with Asus' software, based on their website specs, at least for the chassis fan ports, though Googling about it specifically, I get people posting about control not working with their 3-pin fans. Detailed info found, that probably applies to the Z87-A, as well--which fan header is used makes a difference, but a few of them should work fine for the OP, regardless of fan type, so long as it will run at a sufficiently low RPM.

Oh, and PWM fans seem to click and make annoying sounds a lot more than their 3pin brethen.

PWM fans vary as much as non-PWM fans, with the exception that you don't induce additional switching problems from non-voltage-reg control with them. If PWM fans in general were like Intel and AMD stock fans, I'd hate them with a passion. PWM fans don't make more annoying sounds, IME. But, the PWM model of some fan by some company is a different fan than the non-PWM model--it's not merely the same fan with control added. If looking for a PWM fan, you need to look at them as compared to other PWM fans, and not assume that it will have the same properties as the 3-pin companion model.

You can get such control if you look for it, but sometimes it's not there. I'd rather just get a software-controllable fan and be done, myself. The best looking fan controller is the one taking up an unobtrusive 16x16px block in my systray. They're all cheap crap, pretty much (you're basically paying for the brand owner's unique specifications, since easily purchasable industrial fans are always fast and loud). The YL's may be worth their cost more than others, but that's how little niche markets go. A $20 fan for a $1000+ computer really isn't a big deal, and volumes are low for most of these companies.

 

[Belial88]

So, you didn't read the previous post (by the OP), and haven't used many Asus of GB motherboards within the last several years, I see. The issue one of hardware support or configuration, which Speedfan can't get around, that some motherboards have power duty cycle control and/or voltage control, but some don't, only controlling via 4-pin PWM (often, it depends on fan port, with 1-2 controllable). Asus has realized it's a problem and is going for full support from now on, and GB Has quietly added voltage control back into their OC boards, but there are still some gaps.

Seriously? I read all of the posts, unless I missed something, the OP's board has 3 pin fan control just fine. And I've used multiple Asus and Gigabyte boards in the last several years, I've controlled 3 pin fans just fine on all of them. UD3H, UD5H, P8Z77-V LE, etc.

But, the PWM model of some fan by some company is a different fan than the non-PWM model--it's not merely the same fan with control added. If looking for a PWM fan, you need to look at them as compared to other PWM fans, and not assume that it will have the same properties as the 3-pin companion model.

Eh, sure. Motor is just as important as fan blades. The problem is a lot of companies sell a PWM version and it's just a crappy PWM motor of the same blades, creating a worse fan, many times with clicking sounds or other various sound bugs (ie coolermaster, older corsair fans).

I'm just anti-PWM in general, but there is a time and place for each. My usage habits are very on/off so I prefer manual control (ie i'm either running a stress test, or not, im gaming, or not gaming).

he best looking fan controller is the one taking up an unobtrusive 16x16px block in my systray.

I don't know, the bitfenix and nzxt fan controllers look very sharp in their respective cases, and in many others (particularly since nzxt's is basic plastic that works with most black cases). The updated v2.0 NZXT fan controller is also actually surprisingly high quality, and it's a shame they don't market that.

The bitfenix fan controller also isn't too bad, I've only complained about it because I run ~15w off each rated 10w channel (that's more like 8w) but a modded heatsink fixed that. They don't need to be expensive to look good (unless you think all sub-$100 cases look like 'cheap crap' since the bezel matches the case).

I mean you don't have to use a fan controller if you think they are so awful, just get some 8PDT switch or 8x SPDT switches or whatever you wanted to get for like $1 for all of them.

Buying 8 $20 fans for a $1000 computer, also, really sucks. It's not even worth it. But a 1-2C temp drop for each of the 8 fans you buy for $5 each, that's not a bad deal at all.