Family Forced To Move To Belgium To Get Healthcare

[AreaCode7O7]

Fast forward three years and Belgium winds up pissed that they have to go back to privatized health care because foreigners with extremely expensive conditions move in (re: Hawaii). Hyperbole? Absolutely. However, the basic principle is there; health care isn't free and if ultimately it costs more than we have, either individually or as a country, it's no longer available. The difference is whether it's no longer available to an individual or a country.

I'd prefer to have health care unavailable to me personally and still see it available to others than to see all of us equally screwed. That's saying quite a bit, since I have a degenerative disease that requires constant, and very expensive treatment. A more realistic example of my hyperbole above is the UK's treatment of one of my drugs.

I have rheumatoid arthritis. Sucks, no cure, constant treatment. One of the best treatments out there right now comes in the form of a biologic. These drugs are newer, TONS of R&D costs in getting this to market, and because they're so effective, that TONS is still cheap. Biologics takes the shape of Enbrel, Humira or Remicade. Often one won't work and the docs try another which does.

Yay, I can walk again and use my hands! If you've never been 18 and unable to walk, not knowing if you ever will again, you cannot possibly know the relief it is to suddenly live a normal life again. The price of these drugs can range up to $30k a year. Sure glad I have insurance; sucks that some people don't. I will do ANYTHING to maintain a job with that insurance; if that meant I cleaned subway toilets, I would do it.

On the flip side, we have the lovely old UK and their helpful health provision for their citizens. Which just happened to determine that this drug is too expensive to experiment with; you get to try one of the flavors and if it doesn't work, too bad, no more tries. Everyone for whom try #1 doesn't work gets to live with not being able to walk or use your hands. Sucks.

Lower the prices? Producing these drugs, even without the R&D costs factored in, is obscenely expensive. Beyond that they're still working on better drugs and (I'm not holding my breath) a cure. Eventually these will quit working, for me and for others. It's the sad fate of anybody with my disease; nothing works permanently.

So yeah, go to Belgium for your health care because the mean old United States won't pay for it. And then deal with it when Belgium decides it's too expensive to allow you to have the best possible treatment, because too many people take advantage of the system, because treatment is an art rather than a pure science, because the country has to provide mediocre treatment for all.

Being without health insurance terrifies me but I can take some responsibility for my life; if I don't have it, I'm not doing my part to take care of myself. No matter how disabled I get, as long as I have my mental faculties I will hold some type of job that keeps me insured. Being on government-controlled health care scares the living shit out of me because then, no matter what I do, I've turned over the keys to my health and life to someone other than me.

Yeah, they'll do their best, for me and for everyone... just like they're doing in Britain, where I wouldn't be able to walk or type right now.

[edit] Just for fun: UK discussion about trying to get Enbrel. This is old, 2004. The UK has since TIGHTENED restrictions on accessing this particular drug and anything else in that family, entirely because of the cost. It's not an opiate or painkiller, not addictive, no street value or potential for misuse.
http://www.psoriasis.org/forum.../index.php/t-9341.html

More recent article about UK restrictions: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/...g+rationing/article.do

 

[JohnnyGage]

The article doesn't say what will happen to them if they move to Belgium. Presumably, she will definitely have to pay out of pocket until she is a citizen and then there is no guarantee of anything. Even the CNA link doesn't say what will happen if she moves--it just says we need a single payer system, which shows their own bias as an organization. Although now the family has Kaiser starting in Dec she will probably be better off with that anyway.

 

[glugglug]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: mooseracing
So how are we going to fund a National System, more taxes, or just add more to our debt?

I don't want to pay for others like I am already doing for the Welfare people that drive nicer vehicles then I will ever own.

I don't have links, but my understanding is that health care in the US is the most expensive in the world. I think too much emphasis is being put on insurance companies here. I think we need to start with the health care givers themselves. My wife went in for a doctor ordered stress test. She was there for 20 minutes. She was on the treadmill for 6 minutes. Our insurance was billed $1395 dollars. If anyone has ever had a stress test as have I, this is an absolutely outrageous amount of money. For $1395, the Doctor should do the running for me.

As I said, I feel the problem is at the bottom not at the top where all the attention is directed.

QFT

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Well, that all depends on the rules. I personally have faith that government can do a good job when the right people are put into power including when it comes time to design and provide some kind of UHC.

LMAO, you sound like Craig. Government is amazing, as long as the people running it are absolutely benevolent. Unfortunately you have to deal with reality just like the rest of us. Everyone has an agenda, and you should always assume the reality of government lies roughly in the middle of the worst and the best outcome.

Generally, I don't want the government to have complete control over health care. I want a healthy mix of options both private and public which include making quality health care available for everyone. That's the goal and some form of a UHC is a part of my preferred solution.

As soon as government starts getting into healthcare, it will quickly snowball into full control. Just wait a decade or two and you'll see.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Ill be for handout-healthcare as soon as we can arrest parents who bring obese children into a McDonalds.

See, we can all get what we want with some tradeoffs.

How fascist of you. I don't exactly enjoy the fact that some parents do not put forth effort to keep their children's weight under control either but geez...

What do you think is going to happen once govt controls your healthcare? You want taxpayers funded healthcare you have to play within the rules of the govt.

Well, that all depends on the rules. I personally have faith that government can do a good job when the right people are put into power including when it comes time to design and provide some kind of UHC.

Generally, I don't want the government to have complete control over health care. I want a healthy mix of options both private and public which include making quality health care available for everyone. That's the goal and some form of a UHC is a part of my preferred solution.

This notion that it would be great if the "right people are put into power" is naive. Because the right people are never in power. Govt. itself creates only more bureaucracy which only creates more expense. Things only appear cheaper in those countries with UHC because the care is rationed. Why do you think there are year long waiting lists in these places for procedures that are routine here. We already have a form of UHC called medicare.

I have little faith in government. The analogy I use for govt. is from Smokey the bear about campfires--keep it small, keep it contained, and keep an eye on it.

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Ill be for handout-healthcare as soon as we can arrest parents who bring obese children into a McDonalds.

See, we can all get what we want with some tradeoffs.

How fascist of you. I don't exactly enjoy the fact that some parents do not put forth effort to keep their children's weight under control either but geez...

What do you think is going to happen once govt controls your healthcare? You want taxpayers funded healthcare you have to play within the rules of the govt.

Well, that all depends on the rules. I personally have faith that government can do a good job when the right people are put into power including when it comes time to design and provide some kind of UHC.

Generally, I don't want the government to have complete control over health care. I want a healthy mix of options both private and public which include making quality health care available for everyone. That's the goal and some form of a UHC is a part of my preferred solution.

This notion that it would be great if the "right people are put into power" is naive. Because the right people are never in power. Govt. itself creates only more bureaucracy which only creates more expense. Things only appear cheaper in those countries with UHC because the care is rationed. Why do you think there are year long waiting lists in these places for procedures that are routine here. We already have a form of UHC called medicare.

I have little faith in government. The analogy I use for govt. is from Smokey the bear about campfires--keep it small, keep it contained, and keep an eye on it.

Like what? FWIW my father was diagnosed with cancer earlier this year - he was on the operating table within a couple weeks, as soon as the appropriate scans had been done and the surgeons had talked it over with him.

Care is not so much rationed as prioritized.

 

[JohnnyGage]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Ill be for handout-healthcare as soon as we can arrest parents who bring obese children into a McDonalds.

See, we can all get what we want with some tradeoffs.

How fascist of you. I don't exactly enjoy the fact that some parents do not put forth effort to keep their children's weight under control either but geez...

What do you think is going to happen once govt controls your healthcare? You want taxpayers funded healthcare you have to play within the rules of the govt.

Well, that all depends on the rules. I personally have faith that government can do a good job when the right people are put into power including when it comes time to design and provide some kind of UHC.

Generally, I don't want the government to have complete control over health care. I want a healthy mix of options both private and public which include making quality health care available for everyone. That's the goal and some form of a UHC is a part of my preferred solution.

This notion that it would be great if the "right people are put into power" is naive. Because the right people are never in power. Govt. itself creates only more bureaucracy which only creates more expense. Things only appear cheaper in those countries with UHC because the care is rationed. Why do you think there are year long waiting lists in these places for procedures that are routine here. We already have a form of UHC called medicare.

I have little faith in government. The analogy I use for govt. is from Smokey the bear about campfires--keep it small, keep it contained, and keep an eye on it.

Like what? FWIW my father was diagnosed with cancer earlier this year - he was on the operating table within a couple weeks, as soon as the appropriate scans had been done and the surgeons had talked it over with him.

Care is not so much rationed as prioritized.

That's good, and hopefully he is free and clear. And it's good that he was able to get care as quick as he did. Where was this?

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Ill be for handout-healthcare as soon as we can arrest parents who bring obese children into a McDonalds.

See, we can all get what we want with some tradeoffs.

How fascist of you. I don't exactly enjoy the fact that some parents do not put forth effort to keep their children's weight under control either but geez...

What do you think is going to happen once govt controls your healthcare? You want taxpayers funded healthcare you have to play within the rules of the govt.

Well, that all depends on the rules. I personally have faith that government can do a good job when the right people are put into power including when it comes time to design and provide some kind of UHC.

Generally, I don't want the government to have complete control over health care. I want a healthy mix of options both private and public which include making quality health care available for everyone. That's the goal and some form of a UHC is a part of my preferred solution.

This notion that it would be great if the "right people are put into power" is naive. Because the right people are never in power. Govt. itself creates only more bureaucracy which only creates more expense. Things only appear cheaper in those countries with UHC because the care is rationed. Why do you think there are year long waiting lists in these places for procedures that are routine here. We already have a form of UHC called medicare.

I have little faith in government. The analogy I use for govt. is from Smokey the bear about campfires--keep it small, keep it contained, and keep an eye on it.

Like what? FWIW my father was diagnosed with cancer earlier this year - he was on the operating table within a couple weeks, as soon as the appropriate scans had been done and the surgeons had talked it over with him.

Care is not so much rationed as prioritized.

Yep, and us chronics are prioritized at the bottom. Why waste money giving quality of life to someone who will never be cured when you can use it to save a life from cancer? That is completely logical and reasonable. And it's exactly why each person should take responsibility for their own health care.

The problem with privatized health care isn't that people can't afford it. It's that people don't prioritize it when they're healthy. There's plenty of health options out there already, subsidized through government and employers when necessary. People just aren't willing to go the extra mile for something they don't immediately need.

Now if you want to talk about insurance reform, I'm all in.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: ElFenix
how much are doctors paid in belgium?

I did some quick googling and a gp is earning on average 110k.

euros, i assume. is that starting? what sort of debt load do they have?

*inquiring minds want to know*

usd, starting

no debt, med school is almost financed by the govt. just like all the other education. For this year it was a maximum of 540 euro / year for tuition.
Probably an extra 1500 euro / year for books.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage
The article doesn't say what will happen to them if they move to Belgium. Presumably, she will definitely have to pay out of pocket until she is a citizen and then there is no guarantee of anything. Even the CNA link doesn't say what will happen if she moves--it just says we need a single payer system, which shows their own bias as an organization. Although now the family has Kaiser starting in Dec she will probably be better off with that anyway.

she has dual nationality Belgian / USA because of a previous marriage. She has a right of access to the Belgian healthcare system just like other Belgians

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JohnnyGage

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Ill be for handout-healthcare as soon as we can arrest parents who bring obese children into a McDonalds.

See, we can all get what we want with some tradeoffs.

How fascist of you. I don't exactly enjoy the fact that some parents do not put forth effort to keep their children's weight under control either but geez...

What do you think is going to happen once govt controls your healthcare? You want taxpayers funded healthcare you have to play within the rules of the govt.

Well, that all depends on the rules. I personally have faith that government can do a good job when the right people are put into power including when it comes time to design and provide some kind of UHC.

Generally, I don't want the government to have complete control over health care. I want a healthy mix of options both private and public which include making quality health care available for everyone. That's the goal and some form of a UHC is a part of my preferred solution.

This notion that it would be great if the "right people are put into power" is naive. Because the right people are never in power. Govt. itself creates only more bureaucracy which only creates more expense. Things only appear cheaper in those countries with UHC because the care is rationed. Why do you think there are year long waiting lists in these places for procedures that are routine here. We already have a form of UHC called medicare.

I have little faith in government. The analogy I use for govt. is from Smokey the bear about campfires--keep it small, keep it contained, and keep an eye on it.

Like what? FWIW my father was diagnosed with cancer earlier this year - he was on the operating table within a couple weeks, as soon as the appropriate scans had been done and the surgeons had talked it over with him.

Care is not so much rationed as prioritized.

Actually, despite your anecdotal evidence, cancer treatment is a perfect example of long waits. The UK cancer survival rate is among the lowest in Europe because of wait times for diagnosis and treatment. Cancer survival rates are significantly higher in the US than Europe because of less wait times.

Waiting for cancer treatment = death in many cases.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: ElFenix
how much are doctors paid in belgium?

I did some quick googling and a gp is earning on average 110k.

euros, i assume. is that starting? what sort of debt load do they have?

*inquiring minds want to know*

Have you recently made friends with some whiny med school students or something? I think I've seen you posting about doctors' pay before... I'd say universal health insurance should be more important to a Western republic than whether a doctor can afford a Cadillac or a Mercedes.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: ElFenix
how much are doctors paid in belgium?

I did some quick googling and a gp is earning on average 110k.

euros, i assume. is that starting? what sort of debt load do they have?

*inquiring minds want to know*

Have you recently made friends with some whiny med school students or something? I think I've seen you posting about doctors' pay before... I'd say universal health insurance should be more important to a Western republic than whether a doctor can afford a Cadillac or a Mercedes.

The two are related. Individuals have to make their individual choice to study medicine. The number of doctors available greatly alters the viability of an idea like universal health care. More people will make the choice to go into medicine if the rewards are greater. Hence higher pay for doctors/easier access to medical education makes it possible for more people to be treated at a lower cost. (Lower cost resulting from more resources available, less overall demand.)

 

[xenolith]

Imagine if we could get "nutrition insurance", and treat it like we all do health insurance.

$100 per pound for chicken breast? I can't afford that... but wait, I have nutrition insurance... meh... throw it all in my cart.

Only with health insurance, no one even asks up front how much the product or service costs. Who cares when the insurance is footing the bill?