Fair Trade and Organic..

[RichardE]

I've noticed over the last 6 months or so when grocery shopping more Fair Trade and more Organic foods are ending up in my house. I just seem to buy them when the option is available. I've also noticed my grocery bill has steadily gone up by about 20$ :laugh:

Anyway, was looking over the Fair trade thing again after buying some amazing Fair trade coffee and got me wondering, anyone else ever buy Fair Trade when it is available.

Also, does anyone here buy certain *organic* goods. I'm not sure how good they are actually doing me, I should research that a little more before buying into that marketing gimmick


Fair Trade article

 

[Babbles]

In my strong opinion - and the opinion of many professionals - is that organic is more of a joke and a scam.

If you really want to make some sort of impact it is best to buy local goods when possible, regardless if they are grown organically or not.

Many organic fruits and veggies nowadays are grown on the large scale farms and are too trucked in to your grocery store from all over the country, so there is still a significant 'carbon footprint' due to transportation costs. Also organically grown foods are typically less robust and offer lower yields so it takes more resources and times to get the same amount that conventional means may use.

Anyhow, again, buy local.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Babbles
In my strong opinion - and the opinion of many professionals - is that organic is more of a joke and a scam.

If you really want to make some sort of impact it is best to buy local goods when possible, regardless if they are grown organically or not.

Many organic fruits and veggies nowadays are grown on the large scale farms and are too trucked in to your grocery store from all over the country, so there is still a significant 'carbon footprint' due to transportation costs. Also organically grown foods are typically less robust and offer lower yields so it takes more resources and times to get the same amount that conventional means may use.

Anyhow, again, buy local.

Ah I was doing it since I was under the impression it was healthier for my body


Organic = less pesticides used?

Man, I was taken for a ride

 

[cKGunslinger]

Organic is of no immediate consequence to me. Not supporting sellers who rely on child slave labor is. Think about that the next time you each a chocolate bar.

 

[nageov3t]

I buy kosher meat whenever possible.

beyond that, I don't really care about free-trade/organic/whatever.

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Organic is of no immediate consequence to me. Not supporting sellers who rely on child slave labor is. Think about that the next time you each a chocolate bar.

Slave labor is one thing - that would be bad.

Child labor is another thing, and that may be good.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Organic is of no immediate consequence to me. Not supporting sellers who rely on child slave labor is. Think about that the next time you each a chocolate bar.

Slave labor is one thing - that would be bad.

Child labor is another thing, and that may be good.

Child labor in a first world country may be good, but not in a 3rd world country. The reason they use child labor in 3rd world countries is because it's easier to cheat them out of their wages and they're more exploitable.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

organic or fair market does not factor into my purchasing decisions

 

[chusteczka]

I avoid non-organic milk. There is a definite taste, composition, and overall quality difference between organic and non-organic milk. Other "organic" items I give due consideration and preference to but not exclusively.

This is my preferred milk, in order:

1. Organic Valley Cooperative
2. Horizon Organic

While it is true the term "organic" is often used as a marketing gimmick, I do not trust most "professional" opinions due to the fact that they often continue to trust the FDA and have not yet outgrown the propaganda they learned while living in the United States. To me, their "professional" opinions are worthless because they do not know anything outside of good old homegrown American propaganda as it concerns our cancer causing food supply.

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Babbles
In my strong opinion - and the opinion of many professionals - is that organic is more of a joke and a scam.

If you really want to make some sort of impact it is best to buy local goods when possible, regardless if they are grown organically or not.

Many organic fruits and veggies nowadays are grown on the large scale farms and are too trucked in to your grocery store from all over the country, so there is still a significant 'carbon footprint' due to transportation costs. Also organically grown foods are typically less robust and offer lower yields so it takes more resources and times to get the same amount that conventional means may use.

Anyhow, again, buy local.

Ah I was doing it since I was under the impression it was healthier for my body


Organic = less pesticides used?

Man, I was taken for a ride

Typically less pesticides are used for organic - or rather they may use "natural" pesticides. However also keep in mind that when things are labeled 'organic' there is not really any sort of definition of exactly what that means.

I worked in a lab where we did a big study looking at food products and ran a trace-level analysis of ~500 pesticides. The organic foods typically had a little less, but nothing significant. We were also looking at crazy low levels that were more for monitoring purposes than health concerns.

Additionally older banned pesticides, typically chlorinated, would still show up even though they may not have been used in twenty plus years (e.g. mirex). Some stuff was put into the environment and they are very persistent and still around for a long time. So if a 'bad' soil was used to grow the food, then organic foods could have a higher concentration of banned pesticides than conventionally grown foods which may have trace levels of organo-phosphate pesticides,which typically break down pretty fast.

That is not to say that all organic stuff is bad, but likewise one should not say that all organic is better.

I just buy whatever is cheaper.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Organic is of no immediate consequence to me. Not supporting sellers who rely on child slave labor is. Think about that the next time you each a chocolate bar.

Slave labor is one thing - that would be bad.

Child labor is another thing, and that may be good.

Text

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Organic is of no immediate consequence to me. Not supporting sellers who rely on child slave labor is. Think about that the next time you each a chocolate bar.

Slave labor is one thing - that would be bad.

Child labor is another thing, and that may be good.

Child labor in a first world country may be good, but not in a 3rd world country. The reason they use child labor in 3rd world countries is because it's easier to cheat them out of their wages and they're more exploitable.

You got that totally backwards: Child labor in a "3rd world" country is more than likely a good thing.

Those places are crazy poor - not American "poor" - but life or death poor. Those kids could die if they do not get a job where they earn money to buy food, medicine, and education.

If you do not allow children to work when they have to - not because they really want to - then they will find something to provide for themselves. Then you get drug smuggling and child prostitution; you are not a fan of that, are you?

It is easy to sit in a big comfy home with a bunch of resources and say that child labor is bad, but if that child's life - or the life of their family - depends on them working, then it doesn't matter what the hell our opinions are (as we live our comfortable life).

 

[Paladin3]

Child labor in third world countries is a complicated issue. If I were said child and had the choice between working 12 hours/day for barely enough money to feed myself and starving/begging on the street without any job at all, I think the choice would be clear. Neither situation is ideal by any means, but working and eating > starving.

The real evil is that the governments in these countries don't value the lives of their lowest class citizens beyond their ability to work cheaply.

 

[Gothgar]

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Organic is of no immediate consequence to me. Not supporting sellers who rely on child slave labor is. Think about that the next time you each a chocolate bar.

Slave labor is one thing - that would be bad.

Child labor is another thing, and that may be good.

Child labor in a first world country may be good, but not in a 3rd world country. The reason they use child labor in 3rd world countries is because it's easier to cheat them out of their wages and they're more exploitable.

You got that totally backwards: Child labor in a "3rd world" country is more than likely a good thing.

Those places are crazy poor - not American "poor" - but life or death poor. Those kids could die if they do not get a job where they earn money to buy food, medicine, and education.

If you do not allow children to work when they have to - not because they really want to - then they will find something to provide for themselves. Then you get drug smuggling and child prostitution; you are not a fan of that, are you?

It is easy to sit in a big comfy home with a bunch of resources and say that child labor is bad, but if that child's life - or the life of their family - depends on them working, then it doesn't matter what the hell our opinions are (as we live our comfortable life).

:shiftyeyes;

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Organic is of no immediate consequence to me. Not supporting sellers who rely on child slave labor is. Think about that the next time you each a chocolate bar.

Slave labor is one thing - that would be bad.

Child labor is another thing, and that may be good.

Child labor in a first world country may be good, but not in a 3rd world country. The reason they use child labor in 3rd world countries is because it's easier to cheat them out of their wages and they're more exploitable.

You got that totally backwards: Child labor in a "3rd world" country is more than likely a good thing.

Those places are crazy poor - not American "poor" - but life or death poor. Those kids could die if they do not get a job where they earn money to buy food, medicine, and education.

If you do not allow children to work when they have to - not because they really want to - then they will find something to provide for themselves. Then you get drug smuggling and child prostitution; you are not a fan of that, are you?

It is easy to sit in a big comfy home with a bunch of resources and say that child labor is bad, but if that child's life - or the life of their family - depends on them working, then it doesn't matter what the hell our opinions are (as we live our comfortable life).

That's like giving me the choice between you shooting me in the head or me tossing your salad. Neither choice is a 'good' choice, but one is certainly less worse. And i think there's value for children to work in the 1st world, it builds character. Child labor in 3rd world countries is pure exploitation.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Babbles
In my strong opinion - and the opinion of many professionals - is that organic is more of a joke and a scam.

If you really want to make some sort of impact it is best to buy local goods when possible, regardless if they are grown organically or not.

Many organic fruits and veggies nowadays are grown on the large scale farms and are too trucked in to your grocery store from all over the country, so there is still a significant 'carbon footprint' due to transportation costs. Also organically grown foods are typically less robust and offer lower yields so it takes more resources and times to get the same amount that conventional means may use.

Anyhow, again, buy local.

People who buy organic generally don't do it for the "carbon" factor. They do it because they don't want to eat pesticides or GMOs, or because they believe organic foods taste better. If you didn't realize that, your strong opinion isn't worth a whole lot.

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Organic is of no immediate consequence to me. Not supporting sellers who rely on child slave labor is. Think about that the next time you each a chocolate bar.

Slave labor is one thing - that would be bad.

Child labor is another thing, and that may be good.

Text

That is an interesting - yet unsurprising - article, thanks.
So again, as per the article, slave labor, or forced labor, is a bad thing and those countries should stop using children (or anybody for that matter) as slave labor.

A child who chooses to go out and get a job so they do not die, well that is probably a good choice for them. Key word is choice.

 

[Jumpem]

I don't even pay attention to any of that. though if anything, goods with liberal slogans all over them would discourage me from purchasing them.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Babbles
In my strong opinion - and the opinion of many professionals - is that organic is more of a joke and a scam.

If you really want to make some sort of impact it is best to buy local goods when possible, regardless if they are grown organically or not.

Many organic fruits and veggies nowadays are grown on the large scale farms and are too trucked in to your grocery store from all over the country, so there is still a significant 'carbon footprint' due to transportation costs. Also organically grown foods are typically less robust and offer lower yields so it takes more resources and times to get the same amount that conventional means may use.

Anyhow, again, buy local.

People who buy organic generally don't do it for the "carbon" factor. They do it because they don't want to eat pesticides or GMOs, or because they believe organic foods taste better. If you didn't realize that, your strong opinion isn't worth a whole lot.

Babbles has done lab research on it, I imagine he looks at it first from a perspective from his research. He answered the question again later when I clarified it.

Babbles, were the pesticides on the Organic food lower in quantities if not variety?

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Babbles
In my strong opinion - and the opinion of many professionals - is that organic is more of a joke and a scam.

If you really want to make some sort of impact it is best to buy local goods when possible, regardless if they are grown organically or not.

Many organic fruits and veggies nowadays are grown on the large scale farms and are too trucked in to your grocery store from all over the country, so there is still a significant 'carbon footprint' due to transportation costs. Also organically grown foods are typically less robust and offer lower yields so it takes more resources and times to get the same amount that conventional means may use.

Anyhow, again, buy local.

People who buy organic generally don't do it for the "carbon" factor. They do it because they don't want to eat pesticides or GMOs, or because they believe organic foods taste better. If you didn't realize that, your strong opinion isn't worth a whole lot.

I previously addressed the pesticide issue - it is really moot. The GMO issue, in my opinion is a joke as well. People have been cross-breading strains of crops - and animals - for thousands of years. Then as soon as somebody did it in a lab under different conditions than *gasp* all of sudden it's bad. GMOs have the potential to save millions of lives and it is ridiculous to think that they are somehow an evil unleashed on the world. The EU, historically against them, have been letting GMOs into their union because there is really no harm with them.

 

[Baked]

Buy your fruits and veggies at mom & pop shops, more specifically, minority grocery stores. You'll find more often times than not, their produce are just as fresh if not fresher than chain supermarkets, and much much cheaper. Of course that's just my experience around where I live, I don't know how it is around your parts. You wanna eat "organic" food? Grow your own.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Baked
Buy your fruits and veggies at mom & pop shops, more specifically, minority grocery stores. You'll find more often times than not, their produce are just as fresh if not fresher than chain supermarkets, and much much cheaper. Of course that's just my experience around where I live, I don't know how it is around your parts. You wanna eat "organic" food? Grow your own.

Too many beer bottles in my backyard from all the college parties we throw to do that

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Babbles
In my strong opinion - and the opinion of many professionals - is that organic is more of a joke and a scam.

If you really want to make some sort of impact it is best to buy local goods when possible, regardless if they are grown organically or not.

Many organic fruits and veggies nowadays are grown on the large scale farms and are too trucked in to your grocery store from all over the country, so there is still a significant 'carbon footprint' due to transportation costs. Also organically grown foods are typically less robust and offer lower yields so it takes more resources and times to get the same amount that conventional means may use.

Anyhow, again, buy local.

People who buy organic generally don't do it for the "carbon" factor. They do it because they don't want to eat pesticides or GMOs, or because they believe organic foods taste better. If you didn't realize that, your strong opinion isn't worth a whole lot.

Babbles has done lab research on it, I imagine he looks at it first from a perspective from his research. He answered the question again later when I clarified it.

Babbles, were the pesticides on the Organic food lower in quantities if not variety?

That is touch to answer, every food product we tested had different results. I could not say all of X is lower than Y. We analyzed hundreds of samples with ~500 analytes per sample, I just simply do not remember all of the results! Typically, though, we only had about the same dozen or so that would show up - if they showed up that is.

In most cases, the results were below our linear detection limit. Meaning we would run a known standard at a concentration equal to ~2 ppb (parts per billion). Technically that would be the lowest concentration we could report- we have not proven that we could see lower (even though if we tried we could for some analytes). Anyhow, we would still liberally extrapolate concentrations below that detection limit. So we may get a value of 0.4pbb and the problem is that we have no confidence in the accuracy of that value.
The point of the study, though, was just to provide information to monitor things to see if the relative concentrations increase or decrease, not necessarily what the exact value it is.

Those values are crazy low. Well, well, below any sort of LD50. Pesticides are used at percent levels and were were monitoring things at 1ppb.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Babbles

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Babbles
In my strong opinion - and the opinion of many professionals - is that organic is more of a joke and a scam.

If you really want to make some sort of impact it is best to buy local goods when possible, regardless if they are grown organically or not.

Many organic fruits and veggies nowadays are grown on the large scale farms and are too trucked in to your grocery store from all over the country, so there is still a significant 'carbon footprint' due to transportation costs. Also organically grown foods are typically less robust and offer lower yields so it takes more resources and times to get the same amount that conventional means may use.

Anyhow, again, buy local.

People who buy organic generally don't do it for the "carbon" factor. They do it because they don't want to eat pesticides or GMOs, or because they believe organic foods taste better. If you didn't realize that, your strong opinion isn't worth a whole lot.

Babbles has done lab research on it, I imagine he looks at it first from a perspective from his research. He answered the question again later when I clarified it.

Babbles, were the pesticides on the Organic food lower in quantities if not variety?

That is touch to answer, every food product we tested had different results. I could not say all of X is lower than Y. We analyzed hundreds of samples with ~500 analytes per sample, I just simply do not remember all of the results! Typically, though, we only had about the same dozen or so that would show up - if they showed up that is.

In most cases, the results were below our linear detection limit. Meaning we would run a known standard at a concentration equal to ~2 ppb (parts per billion). Technically that would be the lowest concentration we could report- we have not proven that we could see lower (even though if we tried we could for some analytes). Anyhow, we would still liberally extrapolate concentrations below that detection limit. So we may get a value of 0.4pbb and the problem is that we have no confidence in the accuracy of that value.
The point of the study, though, was just to provide information to monitor things to see if the relative concentrations increase or decrease, not necessarily what the exact value it is.

Those values are crazy low. Well, well, below any sort of LD50. Pesticides are used at percent levels and were were monitoring things at 1ppb.

Ah alright, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[chusteczka]

Babbles, you have provided some good information on pesticide use. Thank you.