Fact check: Are rich taxed less than secretaries?

[spidey07]

Of course they aren't. Obama - YOU LIE! When the associated depressed calls Obama on his lies, you know he's in deep trouble. This story is going all over the press, Obama lies, taxes rise.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/52612625-68/income-taxes-pay-tax.html.csp

This year, households making more than $1 million will pay an average of 29.1 percent of their income in federal taxes, including income taxes, payroll taxes and other taxes, according to the Tax Policy Center, a Washington think tank.

Households making between $50,000 and $75,000 will pay an average of 15 percent of their income in federal taxes.

Lower-income households will pay less. For example, households making between $40,000 and $50,000 will pay an average of 12.5 percent of their income in federal taxes. Households making between $20,000 and $30,000 will pay 5.7 percent.

The latest IRS figures are a few years older — and limited to federal income taxes — but show much the same thing. In 2009, taxpayers who made $1 million or more paid on average 24.4 percent of their income in federal income taxes, according to the IRS.

"So it really depends on what is your profession, where's the source of your income, what's the specific circumstances you face, and the averages won't really capture that," Geithner said.

It seems Geithner doesn't know what an average is, then again a tax cheat is either really good or really poor at "math".

 

[Patranus]

And Geithner will pay even less because of a "calculation error" in Turbo Tax.

Edit: Ooops should have read that little bit at the bottom. Beat me to it.

 

[Craig234]

Shocking, exclude the large majority of their income from investments, and then the rate is higher.

Otherwise, it's a puzzle how the capital gains rate - 15% IIRC - where the very rich make most of their money - results in a tax rate almost twice that.

But it's important to note that for the rich, most of that income does not come from "working": in 2008, only 19% of the income reported by the 13,480 individuals or families making over $10 million came from wages and salaries.

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

 

[spidey07]

Shocking, exclude the large majority of their income from investments, and then the rate is higher.

Otherwise, it's a puzzle how the capital gains rate - 15% IIRC - where the very rich make most of their money - results in a tax rate almost twice that.



http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Are you really that dumb? The article is about FEDERAL tax, of which LTCG is a part of. I see you're moving the goal posts - 1 million/yr income/gains isn't enough, so you move it to 10 mill/yr?

 

[ElFenix]

Shocking, exclude the large majority of their income from investments, and then the rate is higher.

Otherwise, it's a puzzle how the capital gains rate - 15% IIRC - where the very rich make most of their money - results in a tax rate almost twice that.



http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

the answer is in the different definitions of 'rich' used. people in the $1 million to $10 million range will get a significantly larger portion of their yearly income from working than in the $10 million and up range. that and averages are silly for things like this. it only takes a couple billionaires with massive capital gains to swamp a bunch of $10 million wage earners. the more you increase where your bottom is for what you define as rich the faster that percentage of capital gains derived income shoots up.

 

[Craig234]

About 70% of all capital gains go to those who make over $1 million per year.

That income level is about the 99.7% mark.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/02/te022311.html

 

[halik]

Of course they aren't. Obama - YOU LIE! When the associated depressed calls Obama on his lies, you know he's in deep trouble. This story is going all over the press, Obama lies, taxes rise.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/52612625-68/income-taxes-pay-tax.html.csp




It seems Geithner doesn't know what an average is, then again a tax cheat is either really good or really poor at "math".

Because Warren Buffet derives most of his income from Berkshire's payroll checks...

 

[woodie1]

How about this:

"The 10 percent of households with the highest incomes pay more than half of all federal taxes. They pay more than 70 percent of federal income taxes, according to the Congressional Budget Office."

 

[DaveSimmons]

So, Spidey, would you agree on a modest increase in capital gains to a 20% rate, say after the first $100K in gains?

That would have earners above $1 million paying the same rate as those earning $75K now, that seems fair to me.

 

[halik]

Effective tax rate for top 400 AGI filers
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=566&Topic2id=48

Pretty clear that the capital gains works here to lower their effective tax rate. Not exactly shocking.

Also not shocking to see the distribution move left over the last 15 years (ie effective tax rate is decreasing for the highest income segment). In particular, check the jump in 1997 when the capital gains went from your marginal to fixed 20%

 

[woolfe9999]

No lie on the part of Obama that I can see here, but a straw man of what he said. Obama did not say that secretaries, teachers etc. pay a higher percentage in taxes than millionaires on average. He's pointing out that some people in those professions do, and he's factually correct in saying that, and his opinion thus follows: this a problem that should be addressed. Sorry, I'm going to have to see a quote where he says something that is contradicted by that AP article. I haven't seen it yet.

- wolf

 

[soundforbjt]

How about this:

"The 10 percent of households with the highest incomes pay more than half of all federal taxes. They pay more than 70 percent of federal income taxes, according to the Congressional Budget Office."

Don't forget, they own 70% of all the wealth as well.

 

[Craig234]

Don't forget, they own 70% of all the wealth as well.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Don't forget, they own 70% of all the wealth as well.

Well then that sounds just fine to me. They have 70% of the total, and pay 70% of the total.

I don't see a problem.

Bring on the flat tax rate and super simplified tax code. Win-win. Well, except for those who want to cheat on their tax deductions

 

[Jhhnn]

Don't try to confuse Spidey with the truth- he's on a rant defending the poor downtrodden job creators, the hedge fund and private equity managers, the Wall St execs, the guys whose idea of a job is to jet to various locations to attend BoD meetings.

The truth is that most earners would give their left nut to earn $1M in a single year and pay the average federal tax rate on it.

Tears in my eyes as big as horseturds, honest.

 

[maluckey]

You know, I'm OK with everyone shouldering their burden. In the military, the 1SG works longer hours, gets less food (always eats after the troops) and has to deal with primadonna officers in his business.

What he gets is higher takehome, slightly less exposure to danger (likely already been-there, done-that!). In short, his function is to support those doing the actual work.

Maybe if we treat our rich like military Senior NCO's they will understand why they need to step up to the plate. Sure their taxation in the big scheme of things doesn't matter to the deficit, And I truly hate to support the Obama camp (who is doing this not out of consideration like I am, but of knee-jerk reaction), but if that's all it takes to make the shallow lefist pricks see the light...so be it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

No lie on the part of Obama that I can see here, but a straw man of what he said. Obama did not say that secretaries, teachers etc. pay a higher percentage in taxes than millionaires on average. He's pointing out that some people in those professions do, and he's factually correct in saying that, and his opinion thus follows: this a problem that should be addressed. Sorry, I'm going to have to see a quote where he says something that is contradicted by that AP article. I haven't seen it yet.

- wolf

It may not be a lie however there is the perception generated that if you are making a million plus you pay less in taxes. In fact Craig is playing that game right now with his charts. It is in fact far more complicated than simplistic figures show. One can make a million in income and another through capital gains and they will pay very different amounts of taxes. Obama doesn't need to lie others will misrepresent the facts for him.

I'd like to know what is being proposed to have people who earn money which isn't ordinary income such as Buffet pay as much as his secretary. Obviously nothing is going to pass which will make that happen. It won't with the Republicans, and it didn't when the Dems had control.

 

[alkemyst]

Of course they aren't. Obama - YOU LIE! When the associated depressed calls Obama on his lies, you know he's in deep trouble. This story is going all over.

He is just buying into public opinion and in today's world that backfires.

Fuck most here think the rich pay less than secretaries...we have threads on this almost daily.

In reality it's the poor whining they should be rich too, but instead of working to improve; they'd rather dumb it down to their level.

 

[spidey07]

So, Spidey, would you agree on a modest increase in capital gains to a 20% rate, say after the first $100K in gains?

That would have earners above $1 million paying the same rate as those earning $75K now, that seems fair to me.

No, I wouldn't. Why do you want to attack grandma living off her husband's nest egg? You really want to increase LTCG 33%? I see you're trolling though.

 

[spidey07]

He is just buying into public opinion and in today's world that backfires.

Fuck most here think the rich pay less than secretaries...we have threads on this almost daily.

In reality it's the poor whining they should be rich too, but instead of working to improve; they'd rather dumb it down to their level.

A fucking - MEN.

Remember this, November 2012 is coming. Get ready, it's coming. VOTE taxpayers, VOTE!

Alky - see how your perspective has changed? I can look back on my posts from years back and see it. Once you start making good money you'll learn to shun this failed president, and you have.

You can see it in the responses from the resident libtards, they're scared fucking shitless.

 

[bfdd]

Just more reasons why all tax rates should be the same. All income(money earned) should be taxed at the same rate, regardless of work done to achieve it. Treating people differently leads to things like "class warfare". I thought we were about equality? It seems like most are about "fucking the other guy", whomever that may be.

 

[woolfe9999]

It may not be a lie however there is the perception generated that if you are making a million plus you pay less in taxes. In fact Craig is playing that game right now with his charts. It is in fact far more complicated than simplistic figures show. One can make a million in income and another through capital gains and they will pay very different amounts of taxes. Obama doesn't need to lie others will misrepresent the facts for him.

I'd like to know what is being proposed to have people who earn money which isn't ordinary income such as Buffet pay as much as his secretary. Obviously nothing is going to pass which will make that happen. It won't with the Republicans, and it didn't when the Dems had control.

Yeah I heard his comments and it never occurred to me that he was even implying that on average those making a million plus paid a lower rate than secretaries. The context of his remarks is the Buffett rule which is solely meant to address the large subset who get most of their income as capital gains. He's basically saying that there is something wrong with any system where a secretary can pay a higher rate than her billionaire boss. Whether secretaries pay a higher rate *on average* isn't the point and he wasn't even implying it.

That answers your second question about what is being proposed. A minimum tax for those making a million a year or more, with capital gains counted as earnings for purposes of the rule. The minimum tax wouldn't affect those who are getting it as wages because they're going to pay that much or more anyway under the current system. It is, in effect, an increase in the cap gains tax rate that doesn't affect those who make under a million. So for example, if you're middle class and you sell your home, it shouldn't affect you. That is the idea of it anyway.

As to whether it will pass, no of course it won't, not for now anyway. The GOP has a stance of no new taxes for any reason. I fail to see why that means Obama shouldn't be proposing it.

- wolf

 

[halik]

No, I wouldn't. Why do you want to attack grandma living off her husband's nest egg? You really want to increase LTCG 33%? I see you're trolling though.

Are you sure you know what you're talking about? Income from non-exempt bonds and funds are treated as non-qualified dividends by IRS and get taxed at your marginal...

 

[Spikesoldier]

Just more reasons why all tax rates should be the same. All income(money earned) should be taxed at the same rate, regardless of work done to achieve it. Treating people differently leads to things like "class warfare". I thought we were about equality? It seems like most are about "fucking the other guy", whomever that may be.

the problem with this is similar to what nixing the income tax and putting up a flat national sales tax would do.

the poor will effectively be taxed more, as they spend a higher percentage of their yearly salary to keep their heads above water.

now imagine an ultra rich guy top 0.01 percent. he would spend a small fraction rather than a large share of his earnings/yr on necessities. granted, he will pay more taxes as he lives lavishly and buys that yacht, but is much less of a financial burden on earners such as this.

 

[glenn1]

About 70% of all capital gains go to those who make over $1 million per year.

That income level is about the 99.7% mark.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/02/te022311.html

And capital gains aren't indexed for inflation, so the actual rate needs to discount the eroded purchasing power of the "gain." For the millionaire who sells an investment at a profit after twenty years, probably half the "capital gain" is simply loss of purchasing power instead of a true gain. This is why I like Mitt Romney's idea to completely exempt from capital gains taxes people with earned income of under $200k/year, it will allow normal people to actually accumulate some assets for retirement without Uncle Sam reaching his hand into their pockets at every turn.