Face It: IRAN PWNED the CIA's Drone!

[William Gaatjes]

The Sentinel is about 9 years old from the start of development, which is where much of the foundational systems would have been designed, which is where I was going as far as built-in limitations. The first flight was likely sometime in 2005.

I am all about positive critique, love it, do it myself... often. I do not consider the Op's PWNED!!! attitude or LL's usual anti-US-military ramblings to be positive critiques. Just saying.

From making the first drawing to the first production model. I estimated sort of the same (2002-2003) the same. Testing at area 52. But real use, between 2005 to 2007 i estimated.

A nice picture :

I expect these drones have been looking around in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran airspace since 2007.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I do wonder, if these drones can detect airplanes flying above them ? I would think so. Because if the satellite communication is placed on top of the drone, (which makes sense) then there is the only weak point to be found for jamming. But i would think that the drone can detect enemy aircrafts. It makes sense. Since topspeed is not known, we will not know if a mig or sukhoi is capable of intercepting. It has been rumored Iran acquired these fighter jets from defected Iraqi warriors.

 

[cwjerome]

I expect these drones have been looking around in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran airspace since 2007.

I expect these have been operating in other parts of the world as well. Just a guess.

Since topspeed is not known, we will not know if a mig or sukhoi is capable of intercepting

It's subsonic and probably has a ceiling less than 60,000ft. Any decent modern fighter could catch it, the tough part is to "see" it well enough to detect AND get a lock AND get a hit.

 

[LegendKiller]

Again.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126102247889095011.html


You are giving the US government and Locheed too much credit.

There's a big fricking difference between between controlling the thing and stealing Predator TV signals.

 

[hal2kilo]

There's a big fricking difference between between controlling the thing and stealing Predator TV signals.

Yep, I'm sure as the powers that be, after realizing that video, probably as well as telemetry data, were not being encrypted was corrected promto. I know full well, how long it takes for the battleship of government to make it's turn, this was not one of them.

Shit happens, multiple line of code are not infalable. and things just break.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I expect these have been operating in other parts of the world as well. Just a guess.



It's subsonic and probably has a ceiling less than 60,000ft. Any decent modern fighter could catch it, the tough part is to "see" it well enough to detect AND get a lock AND get a hit.

To be able to "see" it may be less difficult then it seems.
I was talking about the drone with a colleague and he mentioned that stealth technology ages extremely fast. He mentioned (i think he found an article) when using 2 specific sets of radar technology (not going to mention any details and it is already known by people in the radar tech field it seems) some interesting things happen which make a stealth plane actually stand out instead of being stealth. I would think this asks for state of the art radar technology and software. But i have no idea how it works in practice.

To give some idea of how fast everything is going in the rf field, nowadays you can buy (very low power, only less then 50 meters distance) 24GHz radar modules for consumer use for around 25 euro(Great for home robotics stuff)... If that is already possible, then i am not surprised of what deep pockets such as the general military of developed and now developing countries can buy...

 

[EagleKeeper]

As previously stated;
Until someone actually looks at the unit on display the best guess is smoke and mirrors triggered by the loss of the drone. Even a competent Russian or Chinese technician would be able to tell.

Had Iran made such a coup; they would be more than willing to show off some of the internals and more of the unit to the world to demonstrate their superiority over the "great satan".

Look at the Pakistan handled the helo that was lost.

 

[William Gaatjes]

As previously stated;
Until someone actually looks at the unit on display the best guess is smoke and mirrors triggered by the loss of the drone. Even a competent Russian or Chinese technician would be able to tell.

Had Iran made such a coup; they would be more than willing to show off some of the internals and more of the unit to the world to demonstrate their superiority over the "great satan".

Look at the Pakistan handled the helo that was lost.

Perhaps Iranian people are not Pakistani in culture ? I am not Iranian myself but i do have some Iranian friends and know a little Iranian background. It is quite fascinating, the history and cultural of other countries in general. My friends not favoring the oppressing regime as it is by the way. I mean to say, look at the difference between the USA and Canada. Not that much i would say as a foreigner. Until i start calling an American a Canadian and vice versa.

When looking from a political perspective :
Perhaps they want to use it as a means of negotiation with the USA ?
Perhaps if Iran would really have a sort of intact drone, they would score points for be willing to return it to USA and not disclose any of the technology to others. This means they have political leverage. Of course they would not show this openly because several countries in the ME would not be to happy about it when Iran and the USA start to develop a good friendship( Even if that is still possible). Similar as Saudi Arabia.


(That would not mean they would not try to take a peek at it themselves. But to be honest, i doubt they have the capabilities (equipment) to reverse engineer integrated circuits. I do am sure that Iranian electronic engineers are very skilled in electronics and math.)

As a side note:
What does anybody here think about the new F-22 and the failure of the OBOGS oxygen generation system and the subsequent crash because the pilot got a disorientated ?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Perhaps Iranian people are not Pakistani in culture ? I am not Iranian myself but i do have some Iranian friends and know a little Iranian background. It is quite fascinating, the history and cultural of other countries in general. My friends not favoring the oppressing regime as it is by the way. I mean to say, look at the difference between the USA and Canada. Not that much i would say as a foreigner. Until i start calling an American a Canadian and vice versa.

When looking from a political perspective :
Perhaps they want to use it as a means of negotiation with the USA ?
Perhaps if Iran would really have a sort of intact drone, they would score points for be willing to return it to USA and not disclose any of the technology to others. This means they have political leverage. Of course they would not show this openly because several countries in the ME would not be to happy about it when Iran and the USA start to develop a good friendship( Even if that is still possible). Similar as Saudi Arabia.


(That would not mean they would not try to take a peek at it themselves. But to be honest, i doubt they have the capabilities (equipment) to reverse engineer integrated circuits. I do am sure that Iranian electronic engineers are very skilled in electronics and math.)

As a side note:
What does anybody here think about the new F-22 and the failure of the OBOGS oxygen generation system and the subsequent crash because the pilot got a disorientated ?

While the Iranians are not of the beloved patriot culture; the example is still valid.
Embarrass the US by handing off technology obtained via a US mistake to the US enemies for future favors.

The Iranian leadership mindset is that the US is the enemy; they have no desire to negotiate. They feel they have the economic leverage over the straights to keep the US in line and therefore keep Israel in line.

They have stood up against the US for 30+ years and got the US to admit faults over the Vincennes and the Hostage rescue attempt.
Also, from their perspective; they won against Iraq and supporting role of the US.


Asking about the F22:
While I will admit my bias against the aircraft; way to much was pushed into the aircraft without proper testing. The F117 and SR71 could have been used as test beds; but instead computer sims were depended on. Then there is the habit of blaming the pilot for the technology hiccups.

 

[William Gaatjes]

While the Iranians are not of the beloved patriot culture; the example is still valid.
Embarrass the US by handing off technology obtained via a US mistake to the US enemies for future favors.

The Iranian leadership mindset is that the US is the enemy; they have no desire to negotiate. They feel they have the economic leverage over the straights to keep the US in line and therefore keep Israel in line.

They have stood up against the US for 30+ years and got the US to admit faults over the Vincennes and the Hostage rescue attempt.
Also, from their perspective; they won against Iraq and supporting role of the US.

There is of course a painful history between Iran and the US. I can read the bias from your text just as i can read it from someone from Iran. Perhaps the song "both sides of the story" from Phil Collins may help.

Asking about the F22:
While I will admit my bias against the aircraft; way to much was pushed into the aircraft without proper testing. The F117 and SR71 could have been used as test beds; but instead computer sims were depended on. Then there is the habit of blaming the pilot for the technology hiccups.

I agree also that the fighter is being pushed. And with current economy fears are apparent that targets may not be reached. I would think, thus projects are rushed and hoped for the best. A very unwise practice, but it happens.

I can imagine that it is also the case that current F16 and other fighter airframes (fuselages i think) start to show cracks over time and thus must be replaced before the stresses during flight might cause fatal situations. And since the F22 is expected to be the replacement, i can imagine that spare parts and maintenance for current models is phased out. I do not know if this is the case, but i can imagine the saying : "Do not throw away your old shoes until you have new ones".

 

[cwjerome]

While I will admit my bias against the aircraft; way to much was pushed into the aircraft without proper testing. The F117 and SR71 could have been used as test beds; but instead computer sims were depended on. Then there is the habit of blaming the pilot for the technology hiccups.

I know this is a serious tangent but thinking about Iran and fighters, have you noticed the USSR took a pretty good leap forward in the late 1980s in fighters? Before they had crap but then came up with some pretty solid aircraft towards the end of that decade. I speculate they got a boost by analyzing Iranian 14s.

Let's hope the same basic thing doesn't occur over the Sentinel situation.

 

[Darwin333]

It sounds like complete bullshit to me.

First, the control channel is probably a frequency hopping thing with a pseudo-random pattern that you must first understand in order to jam (and its antenna is upward looking).

Second, military GPS has some kind of encryption (for added accuracy over civilian GPS), so to fool the receiver they should have probably spoofed these.

Third, I'd be very surprised if the drone didn't use some kind of inertial navigation in conjunction with the GPS.

Fourth, even if all the previous conditions held true, there are zero chances they could have made it land in one piece as it was photographed.

Theoretically it's all possible but it's damn complicated and I haven't heard of GPS spoofing before (jamming - yes, not spoofing). And even if true, why would the Iranians go on record with that?

The most plausible explanation is that it crashed somewhere and what the Iranians displayed is a mock up.

Didn't they have the Ruskies helping them out complete with an advanced electronic truck of some sort? Spoofing GPS, while definitely not easy, should be possible given the right resources (some sort of computer code that knows sat location, target location, and spoofing source location). As far as breaking whatever encryption exists and jamming the controllers, I have no clue how difficult or possible it is.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Didn't they have the Ruskies helping them out complete with an advanced electronic truck of some sort? Spoofing GPS, while definitely not easy, should be possible given the right resources (some sort of computer code that knows sat location, target location, and spoofing source location). As far as breaking whatever encryption exists and jamming the controllers, I have no clue how difficult or possible it is.

That is scary indeed. What if they got a su-37 to play with ?
Upgraded with modern radar technology ?
Russia is already providing services to Iran a lot on various grounds IIRC.
Perhaps then the drone would not be used for political leverage to create a more relaxed political environment

 

[William Gaatjes]

There is another question, why would Iran kill a Saudi Arabia ambassador to Washington ? Because this is also used as a reason to supply the United Arab Emirates with bunker busters if the Obama administration executes the planned operation.

 

[Darwin333]

That is scary indeed. What if they got a su-37 to play with ?
Upgraded with modern radar technology ?
Russia is already providing services to Iran a lot on various grounds IIRC.

If Russia is loaning them the tech I would bet dollars to doughnuts that Russia is also providing the highly trained personnel to operate it.

 

[Darwin333]

Perhaps Iranian people are not Pakistani in culture ? I am not Iranian myself but i do have some Iranian friends and know a little Iranian background. It is quite fascinating, the history and cultural of other countries in general. My friends not favoring the oppressing regime as it is by the way. I mean to say, look at the difference between the USA and Canada. Not that much i would say as a foreigner. Until i start calling an American a Canadian and vice versa.

When looking from a political perspective :
Perhaps they want to use it as a means of negotiation with the USA ?
Perhaps if Iran would really have a sort of intact drone, they would score points for be willing to return it to USA and not disclose any of the technology to others. This means they have political leverage. Of course they would not show this openly because several countries in the ME would not be to happy about it when Iran and the USA start to develop a good friendship( Even if that is still possible). Similar as Saudi Arabia.


(That would not mean they would not try to take a peek at it themselves. But to be honest, i doubt they have the capabilities (equipment) to reverse engineer integrated circuits. I do am sure that Iranian electronic engineers are very skilled in electronics and math.)

As a side note:
What does anybody here think about the new F-22 and the failure of the OBOGS oxygen generation system and the subsequent crash because the pilot got a disorientated ?

If Iran does actually have the drone, even semi-intact, China or Russia will offer them FAR more of what they actually want then we will and frankly they would likely piss them off if they gave it to us. We already really really don't like them so pissing us off a little bit more doesn't matter much to them. Its not like we are going to war with them over a remote controlled plane.

 

[Darwin333]

There is of course a painful history between Iran and the US. I can read the bias from your text just as i can read it from someone from Iran. Perhaps the song "both sides of the story" from Phil Collins may help.



I agree also that the fighter is being pushed. And with current economy fears are apparent that targets may not be reached. I would think, thus projects are rushed and hoped for the best. A very unwise practice, but it happens.

I can imagine that it is also the case that current F16 and other fighter airframes (fuselages i think) start to show cracks over time and thus must be replaced before the stresses during flight might cause fatal situations. And since the F22 is expected to be the replacement, i can imagine that spare parts and maintenance for current models is phased out. I do not know if this is the case, but i can imagine the saying : "Do not throw away your old shoes until you have new ones".

Last I heard the F-22 line was shut down leaving the ever delayed and new overbudget fighter the F-35. I think Boeing is trying to make a play for updated F-18s and F-15s, not sure what the new ones cost but couldn't we buy like 15 F-15s for the price of one F-22?

 

[William Gaatjes]

Last I heard the F-22 line was shut down leaving the ever delayed and new overbudget fighter the F-35. I think Boeing is trying to make a play for updated F-18s and F-15s, not sure what the new ones cost but couldn't we buy like 15 F-15s for the price of one F-22?

I have no idea. I do know here in the Netherlands Joint strike fighter are the buzzwords. And it is a F-35A, expensive as hell. I do remember an article that the Dutch F-16 are worn out and have reached maximum flight hours... Thus there are no alternatives...

 

[EagleKeeper]

15, 16 still have production lines for foriegn sales. 18 also for USA

 

[William Gaatjes]

15, 16 still have production lines for foriegn sales. 18 also for USB

USB ?

 

[Xpage]

If the drone was hacked and Iran had complete control, how is the operator going to trigger a self destruct?

Simple have an emergency antenna and frequency to use if everything else is gone. Since it is only used in an emergency and has it's own algorithm for switching frequencies, Iran wouldn't know about it by regularly snooping the frequencies of other drones.

Then shit hits the fan, boom, self destruct. Able to be used again and again.



This is a huge fuck up and we gave away billions of dollars worth of research and let others close the tech gap to us. No reason ANY drone shouldn't auto destruct when shit goes wrong. No old drones = no iran snooping of downed drones = no idea how to jam newer drones.

 

[LegendKiller]

Simple have an emergency antenna and frequency to use if everything else is gone. Since it is only used in an emergency and has it's own algorithm for switching frequencies, Iran wouldn't know about it by regularly snooping the frequencies of other drones.

Then shit hits the fan, boom, self destruct. Able to be used again and again.



This is a huge fuck up and we gave away billions of dollars worth of research and let others close the tech gap to us. No reason ANY drone shouldn't auto destruct when shit goes wrong. No old drones = no iran snooping of downed drones = no idea how to jam newer drones.

Fail to see how this is a "huge fuck up". It's pretty simple. You either use the tech and have it run the risk of being captured, or you don't use the tech and have no risk of it being captured. It's a catch 22.

You can take precautions and, overall, we don't know which ones were taken. Perhaps they do have some self-destruct and it failed. Perhaps they don't for a plethora of reasons, who knows. Overall, it doesn't really matter. They won't be able to learn much from it. China has no advanced military tech on their own and reverse engineering isn't that easy, especially without an endogenous advanced military tech center.

 

[Darwin333]

Simple have an emergency antenna and frequency to use if everything else is gone. Since it is only used in an emergency and has it's own algorithm for switching frequencies, Iran wouldn't know about it by regularly snooping the frequencies of other drones.

Then shit hits the fan, boom, self destruct. Able to be used again and again.



This is a huge fuck up and we gave away billions of dollars worth of research and let others close the tech gap to us. No reason ANY drone shouldn't auto destruct when shit goes wrong. No old drones = no iran snooping of downed drones = no idea how to jam newer drones.

That simple huh? Have you ever considered a career in the UAV industry? If your solution really does work and it really is that simple you should be able to make a fortune.

Out of curiosity, how hard would it be to jam almost all frequencies in a relatively small area?