F35 thread

[brycejones]

Lockheed shares sink further on Trump's F-35 threat

http://www.reuters.com/article/usa-trump-defense-idUSL1N1EI0TE

I'm far from a Trump fan of course, but not much of an F-35 fan either.

Yeah having to wait till 2019 for the software to be able to fire the cannon is annoying. The problem is almost any modern fighter program is a long drawn out process regardless of the manufacturer/country involved.

 

[MongGrel]

Yeah having to wait till 2019 for the software to be able to fire the cannon is annoying. The problem is almost any modern fighter program is a long drawn out process regardless of the manufacturer/country involved.

Yeah, just like the Osprey was since the early 80's, how long did that take to even become halfway viable ?

 

[Puffnstuff]

It's gonna be the second coming of Halliburton, Yee Haaaaaaa!

And we all remember how things worked out with W at the helm and his evil sidekick D!ck pulling the strings. If that wasn't a huge conflict of interest I don't know what is. This time they can do it behind the veil of religion, wait...didn't they do it under that last time too? Politics is a giant never ending circus and who controls it dictates which tent it will be performed under.

Speaking of the F35 here's an article comparing it to the A-10. I believe that DOD needs a stealth replacement for the A-10 that can actually deliver the CAS goods to ground troops. A small cannon with a very small magazine holding fewer rounds is not the way to go and for that let's do some fun math.

The F35 cannon magazine holds 222 rounds vs the A-10 magazine which holds 1,174 rounds. 222/1174 = .189 rounded to .19 x 100 = 19%. Therefore, the F35 replacement offers only 19% of the rounds of the platform it replaces and they aren't even of the same caliber as the A-10 is 30mm and the F35 is 25mm further reducing its fighting capability. Sounds like great plan to me....NOT!

 

[Brainonska511]

Speaking of the F35 here's an article comparing it to the A-10. I believe that DOD needs a stealth replacement for the A-10 that can actually deliver the CAS goods to ground troops. A small cannon with a very small magazine holding fewer rounds is not the way to go and for that let's do some fun math.

When 75%+ of CAS missions are flown by non-A-10 aircraft, it seems like spending the money maintaining a highly specialized aircraft that can only be used in low-threat environments is a waste of money and resources, especially when CAS is easily handled by a multitude of other aircraft.

 

[Puffnstuff]

When 75%+ of CAS missions are flown by non-A-10 aircraft, it seems like spending the money maintaining a highly specialized aircraft that can only be used in low-threat environments is a waste of money and resources, especially when CAS is easily handled by a multitude of other aircraft.

Another falsity as the F35 doesn't have the loiter capability that the A-10 has which is a key point when providing cover for an ongoing ground operation. If you are proposing that the C-130 Specter gunship act as the primary replacement then the operations costs must be taken into consideration.

 

[pauldun170]

The F35 cannon magazine holds 222 rounds vs the A-10 magazine which holds 1,174 rounds. 222/1174 = .189 rounded to .19 x 100 = 19%. Therefore, the F35 replacement offers only 19% of the rounds of the platform it replaces and they aren't even of the same caliber as the A-10 is 30mm and the F35 is 25mm further reducing its fighting capability. Sounds like great plan to me....NOT!

How do you think guns are used by current aircraft?
What sort of targets is it being used against?

A small handful of other highly regarded CAS aircraft (CAS is a mission....not an airframe)

Dirty commies and crazy countries
SU-25 - 30mm 250 rounds
.
US Marines - (They know a thing or two about CAS)
AV-8b - 25mm 300 Rounds (in their fancy pod system)

RAF
Tornado - 27mm 180 rounds

France
Mirage 2000 - 2 x 30mm 150 rounds each

Poor people
Super Tucano - 50 Cal - 300 rounds
The list goes on and on.

 

[Puffnstuff]

The A-10 is unique and all in theater NATO forces depend on it to deliver the goods. Without the A-10 the Apache gunship is the only platform that can offer close air support but it has a limited range and loiter time as well. Air land battle doctrine depends on the application of assets to meet both known and unknown threats in the theater of operations. When engaging an armored column 222 rounds will disappear quickly which will require that multiple F35's be assigned to a strike/support role for a given mission. This will increase the operations costs for that mission as more assets will have to be assigned to do the same amount of work.

 

[theeedude]

Problem with drones is that they lack payload. If you want to build a drone with greater payload, then you need bigger drones. Big drones = big money. Drones are great until you start upsizing then they get pricey.
They also become useless when faced electronic warfare.

Big drones are still cheaper and carry a higher payload than similarly sized manned planes, where a big chunk of the expense and weight is there to keep the pilot safe and on board.
AI drones would not rely on a constant communication link anymore than a man piloted ones.

 

[Brainonska511]

The A-10 is unique and all in theater NATO forces depend on it to deliver the goods. Without the A-10 the Apache gunship is the only platform that can offer close air support but it has a limited range and loiter time as well. Air land battle doctrine depends on the application of assets to meet both known and unknown threats in the theater of operations. When engaging an armored column 222 rounds will disappear quickly which will require that multiple F35's be assigned to a strike/support role for a given mission. This will increase the operations costs for that mission as more assets will have to be assigned to do the same amount of work.

This is wholly untrue. CAS is more than a Gatling gun. Precision munitions are far more advanced when the A10 first entered service.

The B1b and B52 can loiter like you want, fighter bombers can be in the air at high altitude for CAS, etc... All of this is shown by statistics on CAS missions that you so conveniently ignore in favor of this myth of the A10.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Depleted uranium slugs and guided munitions are two different things.

 

[pauldun170]

Another falsity as the F35 doesn't have the loiter capability that the A-10 has which is a key point when providing cover for an ongoing ground operation. If you are proposing that the C-130 Specter gunship act as the primary replacement then the operations costs must be taken into consideration.

If its safe enough for a A-10 to loiter, then its safe enough for tankers.
If its safe enough tankers
Everyone can hang around.

As for cost, to bring over an entire A-10 squadron in addition to other aircraft that an A-10 will need to perform the mission is more expensive than just having
You still need SEAD aircraft. You still need fighter cover. You still need tankers. You still need all those other aircraft in the theater to make it safe for the A-10.
When the F-16's\F-15E's have already proven time and time again that they can do the same job as A-10s AND they can protect themselves....whats the point of the A-10?

A-10's seem cheap when looking at them in a vacuum.
"They are cheap to operate", "Rounds are Cheap", "They are paid for"

From services perspective, its how much it costs to perform the mission.
A-10's will ALWAYS require the presence of other aircraft types. So the cost to operate the A-10's in theater will always be "Cost of A-10" + "Cost of other Aircraft to keep it safe".
Not cheap.

 

[pauldun170]

The A-10 is unique and all in theater NATO forces depend on it to deliver the goods. Without the A-10 the Apache gunship is the only platform that can offer close air support but it has a limited range and loiter time as well. Air land battle doctrine depends on the application of assets to meet both known and unknown threats in the theater of operations. When engaging an armored column 222 rounds will disappear quickly which will require that multiple F35's be assigned to a strike/support role for a given mission. This will increase the operations costs for that mission as more assets will have to be assigned to do the same amount of work.

Hate to break it too you but 30mm is not the goto weapon for armor.
Mavericks have been the universal armor killer for decades.

 

[pauldun170]

Big drones are still cheaper and carry a higher payload than similarly sized manned planes, where a big chunk of the expense and weight is there to keep the pilot safe and on board.
AI drones would not rely on a constant communication link anymore than a man piloted ones.

So now you have an autonomous drone operating independently.
Now what.
What does it do?
How does it react to changing conditions?
Who is friend or foe? How does it react to sensory input and make decision without a comprehensive view of the battlefield?

Without answers to these questions, you now have a very expensive airplane doing loops waiting for the guy that's jamming to go ahead and down it.

So instead of an 80 million aircraft being manned by someone is able to operate independently and make judgement calls you have a 60 million dollar drone running through a routine.

If you get to the point where AI is able to replace the brain in a complex battlefield environment then there are bigger issues to think about.

 

[Puffnstuff]

I'm all for modernizing our combat systems and if we can send something over the horizon without endangering people to protect our ground troops that's a great thing. The /A-10 represents a unique capability that was only put on the table after budget cuts forced it there. If you can place the same mission capability into another airframe then go for it and lets see what solution you arrive at. We can talk about the NATO aircraft inventory all day long and what each is theoretically capable of versus reality. The only way they can currently perform this role in the absence of an armor penetrating cannon is with AGM's. When performing danger close missions having a human deciding where to place the rounds versus a program does make a difference.

 

[brycejones]

Good news! Trump has fixed the f-35.

Next up he will be showing the pilots of Air Force one how to fly the plane better. Before moving on to providing field teachings as he visits various government organizations and troops in the field.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/f-35-a-great-plane-now-thanks-to-president-trump-1791824958

Basically Trump is again taking credit for something he and his team had no part in.

 

[disappoint]

Yeah because the 120 rounds of 25MM ammo the F-35 can carry will totally be equal to the 1,350 rounds of 30MM ammo the A-10 can carry.

Survey says? BBBBRRRRRRRRTTTTT