F-22 crashes in California desert near air base

[StageLeft]

$165 million = .00004% of our government budget.

Actually .004, you forgot to jack the numerator by 100 for the %

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

$165 million = .00004% of our government budget.

Actually .004, you forgot to jack the numerator by 100 for the %

Thanks!!!

My calculator doesn't have enough zeros for me to figure it out without cuttings some numbers off.

Should tell you a lot about the size of our government there.

 

[trenchfoot]

Well, seeing as if we're into making comparative analogies, let's compare the economic consequences of that jet crash/bonus scenario with that jet crash and how much Bush and Cheney cost us over the eight years they systematically ruined the Nation's financial underpinnings for the benefit of a select few that have now become even more powerful using this crisis as they would an insider tip.

 

[Deleted member 4644]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
F-22 = $140 million
AIG bonuses = $165 million

So in one plane crash we have lost the equivalent of the AIG bonuses.

My point:
We have a government that is going to spend $4 trillion this year and we are freaking out over $165 million???

Do the math:
$165 million = .00004% of our government budget.

Why are people so upset about the AIG bonuses, but so quiet about the other $4 trillion we are spending????

F22 story via yahoo

An F-22 Raptor jet fighter crashed Wednesday in the high desert of Southern California, Air Force officials said.
Rescue crews were en route to the crash site and the status of the pilot was not immediately known, said Air Force Maj. David Small at the Pentagon.
The two-engine stealth jet, which was on a test mission, crashed six miles north of the base on Harbor Dry Lakebed, Small said. The plane is flown by a single pilot.
The $140 million supersonic F-22 is the force's new top-of-the-line fighter. The U.S. military has committed to 183 of the jets, down from a plan in the 1980s to build 750.
Phone messages left with the base's public affairs office were not immediately returned Wednesday.

Will you just shut the fuck up already?

The difference between a military accident and the AIG situation is enormous.

One is a military accident.

On the other hand, we have a discussion over the financial, moral, and ethical consequences of letting people keep large taxpayer-funded bonuses when the company they were managing and directing lost more money than any company in history.

Your analogy and comments are utterly and irredeemably absurd.

Your existence on these boards reduces the quality of the discussion by a staggering margin.

You are an uneducated fool.

I honestly would like to know your educational background, because I cannot believe that you have ever taken more than one or two college level courses in economics.

You write and post as if you have great moral and educational authority, yet you come across to me as if you are a confused and angry child.

At least use logical and defensible arguments if you wish to present ultra-conservative arguments.

I would direct you to the blog volokh.com if you are interested in an educated libertarian viewpoint.

 

[AndrewR]

I guess the test pilot's life was worth...what? $2 or so? 21 year veteran of the Air Force and test pilot for Lockheed since 2003 -- that's a far greater loss for the country than that aircraft.

F-22 is a necessary addition to the US arsenal for a variety of reasons. Yes, it is an expensive aircraft, but it's also the most capable fighter aircraft ever built and will maintain air superiority for the US military for the foreseeable future. There is NOTHING that can challenge it that will be fielded for quite some time. Attempting to rely on the F-15 (sorry Eaglekeeper!) is ludicrous at this point given their age, and the F-35 was designed for a different mission with resulting compromises. We cannot prepare for the last war, nor can we rest on our laurels.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: AndrewR
I guess the test pilot's life was worth...what? $2 or so? 21 year veteran of the Air Force and test pilot for Lockheed since 2003 -- that's a far greater loss for the country than that aircraft.

F-22 is a necessary addition to the US arsenal for a variety of reasons. Yes, it is an expensive aircraft, but it's also the most capable fighter aircraft ever built and will maintain air superiority for the US military for the foreseeable future. There is NOTHING that can challenge it that will be fielded for quite some time. Attempting to rely on the F-15 (sorry Eaglekeeper!) is ludicrous at this point given their age, and the F-35 was designed for a different mission with resulting compromises. We cannot prepare for the last war, nor can we rest on our laurels.

Or, we could cut the 'empire' policies and spend a lot less. There's not going to be peace as long as you have groups/nations always trying to 'get the upper hand' against others.

There's an inherent incentive for every group to always be looking to dominate and exploit others that's been behind wars since civilization started.

That's why we need to look for stable political solutions that ban war effectively instead, for the benefit of pretty much everyone - to increase the ability of the UN to do just that.

We're no innocent in this conflict - we have installed many dictatoriships for the purpose of empire - as has every major power when given the chance.

Just ignoring the problem and calling it inevitable isn't an answer - as 'the war to end all wars' showed, as WWII showed, as many millions killed since have shown.

That way lies the road to all-powerful government and tyranny, eventually, if we don't find a solution for stable, distributed power among independant nations or at least regions.

And worse, a bit further down the road, it becomes virtually impossible to do anything about it.

In the meantime, people naively seem to think, 'well, there's going to be tyranny, so let's try to be the side that wins'. They debate the next weapon system, not the real issues.

 

[extra]

I'm gonna hafta butt in and say that these expensive, advanced, fighter jets are part of what the military should be spending money on. Less on foreign bases, wars in iraq, etc.... more on stuff like this, who cares if it costs a lot. This technological edge is the thing we *NEED*. The F-22 is one of the things I'm damn glad my tax dollars get spent on. Great. We need to keep our military tech edge.

 

[theeedude]

It's a bummer the pilot died
Otherwise we could have given him an $5M bonus for crashing the plane. I mean the plane is $140M, so who cares about $5M, right?

 

[her209]

Am I missing something? Was the F-22 (partly) responsible for the economic mess?

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: AndrewR
I guess the test pilot's life was worth...what? $2 or so? 21 year veteran of the Air Force and test pilot for Lockheed since 2003 -- that's a far greater loss for the country than that aircraft.

F-22 is a necessary addition to the US arsenal for a variety of reasons. Yes, it is an expensive aircraft, but it's also the most capable fighter aircraft ever built and will maintain air superiority for the US military for the foreseeable future. There is NOTHING that can challenge it that will be fielded for quite some time. Attempting to rely on the F-15 (sorry Eaglekeeper!) is ludicrous at this point given their age, and the F-35 was designed for a different mission with resulting compromises. We cannot prepare for the last war, nor can we rest on our laurels.

Or, we could cut the 'empire' policies and spend a lot less. There's not going to be peace as long as you have groups/nations always trying to 'get the upper hand' against others.

There's an inherent incentive for every group to always be looking to dominate and exploit others that's been behind wars since civilization started.

That's why we need to look for stable political solutions that ban war effectively instead, for the benefit of pretty much everyone - to increase the ability of the UN to do just that.

We're no innocent in this conflict - we have installed many dictatoriships for the purpose of empire - as has every major power when given the chance.

Just ignoring the problem and calling it inevitable isn't an answer - as 'the war to end all wars' showed, as WWII showed, as many millions killed since have shown.

That way lies the road to all-powerful government and tyranny, eventually, if we don't find a solution for stable, distributed power among independant nations or at least regions.

And worse, a bit further down the road, it becomes virtually impossible to do anything about it.

In the meantime, people naively seem to think, 'well, there's going to be tyranny, so let's try to be the side that wins'. They debate the next weapon system, not the real issues.

Oh, so we should join the "post modern" European model and fashion our military into a social jobs program? We'll ignore the fact that the only reason they are able to do that is the military might of the United States which they know will come to their aid.

Pardon me...your naivete is showing. So we should abandon our weapons systems and hope that the world will follow? While China continues to arm itself and increase its ability to project power beyond its borders? While Russia rearms and seeks to control the states which border it? The absence of American military might will not mean a step to your Utopian fantasy world, it will mean the emergence of a new power in its place. While I agree that a stable world is the eventual goal, until resources are abundant and injustices are eliminated, there will always be conflict, and there will always be those who seek to gain more for themselves at the expense of others. Or, there will be those who seek power to redress wrongs, real of perceived, which have occurred in the past.

History will not disappear, and many people have long memories. While it amounted to a failure of the civilized world, Rwanda was an excellent example of that.

I need sleep...

 

[nullzero]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
F-22 = $140 million
AIG bonuses = $165 million

So in one plane crash we have lost the equivalent of the AIG bonuses.

My point:
We have a government that is going to spend $4 trillion this year and we are freaking out over $165 million???

Do the math:
$165 million = .00004% of our government budget.

Why are people so upset about the AIG bonuses, but so quiet about the other $4 trillion we are spending????

F22 story via yahoo

An F-22 Raptor jet fighter crashed Wednesday in the high desert of Southern California, Air Force officials said.
Rescue crews were en route to the crash site and the status of the pilot was not immediately known, said Air Force Maj. David Small at the Pentagon.
The two-engine stealth jet, which was on a test mission, crashed six miles north of the base on Harbor Dry Lakebed, Small said. The plane is flown by a single pilot.
The $140 million supersonic F-22 is the force's new top-of-the-line fighter. The U.S. military has committed to 183 of the jets, down from a plan in the 1980s to build 750.
Phone messages left with the base's public affairs office were not immediately returned Wednesday.

There is a reason people do not get angry when we spent $140mill on a jet... It is an actual asset and actively defends the country. Giving $160mill in bonuses to AIG execs does nothing for the common good and is not an asset of the government.

 

[ProfJohn]

I guess you guys missed the point of this thread.


Our government will spend $4 trillion!!! this year and everyone is freaking out over what amounts to a rounding error.

If my math is right our government spends $761,000 an minute!!!

Since this thread was started our government has spent about $1.4 billion!!!!

Why aren't people jumping up and down and complaining to congress about this fact??

 

[teddyv]

Congress is suddenly so outraged by the $160 million in AIG Bonuses (even though, interestingly enough, just a week or two beforehand a majority of them actually voted to require the bonuses be fully paid by law) because the more you see them outraged about that, the less you will care about things like an $8 BILLION dollar maglev train you're now paying for that will run between Las Vegas and Disneyland.

I still cannot believe the Republicans had a pile of pork stacked 700 Billion dollars high and the biggest thing they could be outraged about was Volcano Monitoring (rumor has it, inserted by Alaska's Republican junior Senator!)

When James Carville can be found on the Sunday Morning talk shows explaining why Earmarks are now actually a good thing and how it is actually a good thing that the deficit spending is so high (the CBO-projected budget deficit for this President's first term is greater than the deficit spending of all prior Presidential terms combined), and NO ONE SAYS ANYTHING - it is time to start shopping for cabins in northern Maine (Montana, etc - you take your choice...)

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: Carmen813
It's an incredibly good airplane and it has better air superiority ability than the JSF, which was mainly designed to replace the F16/18.

As long as its over the united states anyway.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I guess you guys missed the point of this thread.


Our government will spend $4 trillion!!! this year and everyone is freaking out over what amounts to a rounding error.

If my math is right our government spends $761,000 an minute!!!

Since this thread was started our government has spent about $1.4 billion!!!!

Why aren't people jumping up and down and complaining to congress about this fact??

The government is going to spend lots of money each year no matter what. There are lots of services and operating costs to run.

Saying "the government will spend $4 trillion" is a meaningless statement without saying what it's being spent on. Out of that $4T, there could be a little "Kitten Slaughtering Fund," amounting to just $5000 a year. That would be a problem to a lot of people, despite only being a tiny percentage of the overall - it's what it's being spent on that's the problem. People see that AIG is going down the toilet, they heard executives saying the company was doing just fine not too long before the shit hit the fan, they hear these people talking to Congress to ask for money on multiple occasions, the company still goes to hell despite the money, and now the people who helped screw up things are getting bonuses - bonuses are traditionally a way of saying, "Good job, you did better than we expected."

Most working people get fired if they screw up big time; they don't get a few million dollars in the process.



To add though, out of that $4T, I'm sure that there are things just about as outrageous as a $5k Kitten Slaughtering Fund. But just saying "the government spends $4T a year" is not an argument at all.

 

[Slew Foot]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

To add though, out of that $4T, I'm sure that there are things just about as outrageous as a $5k Kitten Slaughtering Fund. But just saying "the government spends $4T a year" is not an argument at all.

The govt. spending 4trill while bringing in 2 Trill is an argument.

 

[Firebot]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I guess you guys missed the point of this thread.


Our government will spend $4 trillion!!! this year and everyone is freaking out over what amounts to a rounding error.

If my math is right our government spends $761,000 an minute!!!

Since this thread was started our government has spent about $1.4 billion!!!!

Why aren't people jumping up and down and complaining to congress about this fact??

I agree fully that the US spends way too much on the military and needs to cut heavily on spending on weapons and planes. I am glad we both agree on something. Thank you Prof John to bring this ridiculous spending on the military to light.