F-117A NIGHTHAWK - What upgrades should they do to them?

[MadRat]

The F-117A Nighthawk is the stealth fighter that debuted in the Panama police action then starred in Desert Storm. It really didn't star in the battlefield as much as the general staff wooed people with spectacular footage of them.

The F-117A is getting to be a fairly expensive plane to fly, having a tiny payload and costs almost the same to operate as a plane that can carry four times its load. Modern standoff TLAM bombs (using GPS-aided smart-guidance) have made the non-stealth plane more effective than the F-117A. Its getting to the point where the F-117A's can be mothballed.

I'd like to see them converted into some other use. Maybe they could use them as trainers for the B-2 bomber. Better yet, lets put a pair of Aim-54C Pheonix missiles in their belly and let them fly CAP for the AWACS and JSTARS. Seriously, though, they are too expensive to be land attack planes, but should be able to do something else!

What kind of fighter do you think they should be converted to be?

 

[jpsj82]

well i am not an expert in this field (i wish i was), but i wanted to comment on the following
"I'd like to see them converted into some other use. Maybe they could use them as trainers for the B-2 bomber."
Just looking at these two planes, I do not see how the F117 could be a trainer for the B2. They both have different designs and flying one plane might not actually help one to be able to fight the other.

just my thoughts

 

[BCYL]

I think they are still useful as the first wave of attack to knock out the enemy's air-defense systems... Afterwards, the other fighters/bombers can go in and clean up when most of the enemy's SAMs or AAAs are knocked out...

Sending in non-stealth fighters/bombers right from the get go might be too dangerous especially for a country that has pretty good air-defense... F-117s might be a little expensive, but it's still better than sending the pilots into harms way...

 

[Random Variable]

Can we really rely on GPS-guided standoff missiles for pinpoint strikes?

 

[CocaCola5]

Maybe they can give it a larger wing(higher lift) and double its payload, 4 LGB instead of 2. It can also work as a nuclear bomber I'd imagine.

 

[BCYL]

<< Maybe they can give it a larger wing(higher lift) and double its payload, 4 LGB instead of 2. It can also work as a nuclear bomber I'd imagine. >>



I suppose the problem with it's payload is not the amount of lift... Since all weapons have to be stored inside the body in order to achieve stealth, it's the size of the plane that's limiting it's payload...

Besides, giving it a larger wing is not an easy task... u might as well just re-design a new plane to replace it (which no doubt the USAF is already doing)...

 

[MadRat]

<<Can we really rely on GPS-guided standoff missiles for pinpoint strikes?>>

The F-111 and A-6 both had 80% hit rates with "dumb" bombs during Desert Storm. The F-117 barely had 80% with laser-guided bombs. Granted, with the TLAM they have been in the mid-80's percentile and these bombs cost a quarter of what laser-guided bombs cost. The truth is that the plane is no longer cost-effective in its mission.

As for first-strike capability, the F-117 came in during the Gulf War after several attacks: computer virus shut down KARI (computerized air defense network), a systematic fighter sweep, and huge cruise missile strike. It did not surprise anybody with its stealth. The real crook of using stealth during the Desert Storm was how they shut off the electronic warfare systems in the area just in case they'd of unintentionally reflected energy back at weapons radars.

These quirks of using stealth fighters are not limited to the Desert Storm. It was the same in the Balkans and Panama. Less expensive fighters can use TLAM to do the same mission for less money. The F-117 really has no mission in today's battlefield.

So, what kind of mission do you think they should be converted?

 

[BCYL]

The one thing I dont get about the F-117 is why they call it a fighter? All the missions it performs are bombing runs... why dont they just call it a bomber?

Oh well, I guess they are good for providing escort for B-2's...

But didnt F-117's account for the largest percentile of kills in Dessert Storm? more than any other type of aircraft? I remember I read that somewhere...

 

[JellyBaby]

<< So, what kind of mission do you think they should be converted? >>

If they're truly obsolete they ought to be retired.

Armed recon/bomb damage reporting? No. Too expensive and drones and other technologies do a better job.

Wild Weasel (flying in front of or with a group going in to hit ground targets, clearing out SAMs and AAAs for the strike package)? Don't think so because to remain stealthy F-117As have to fly a very precise route and I believe this mission calls for hitting targets of opportunity.

Does anyone know if there may be plans to sell 117s to allies?

 

[StageLeft]

Laser guns and stealth bombs!

 

[Electric Amish]

Coffee can exhaust and Type R stickers.

amish

 

[Hammer]

The F117A should be retired. I think they need to come up with a better modernized precIsion stealth bomber.

The B2 is almost 4 times as big as the F117A yet has a smaller radar signature. That tells you how outdated the F117As stealth technology is.

 

[CocaCola5]

It will probably be tough to simply upgrade the 117s because its a design issue(airframe). It really needs a tripling of its payload to make sense compared to systems like the cruise missles. The only mission where it might work more favorably than cruise missles is as a tactical nuclear striker/bomber, here because payload, ofcourse, is pretty non-issue and also it gives leverage by being manned operated(2-way control vs 1-way of a missle).

 

[JellyBaby]

<< That tells you how outdated the F117As stealth technology is. >>

Still, the loss of one over Kosovo was costly, no matter what the pentagon said on TV at the time.

 

[MadRat]

<<But didnt F-117's account for the largest percentile of kills in Dessert Storm? more than any other type of aircraft? I remember I read that somewhere...>>

The F-117 was originally given the tag of most effective aircraft based on the number of bombs dropped on targets that were later deemed "destroyed". This was later rebuked because alot of those targets were already hit and had simply not been assessed before the F-117 strikes, meaning the target (may or) may not have existed at the time of the strike.

The F-16s carried the brunt of the (fighter) bombing during Desert Storm, followed by the F-111's. Of course these are just the published stats from the GAO, which alot of military people disagree with their conclusions. We had some pretty slack record keeping during Desert Storm, else a more accurate assessment would have been publically available.

The F-111's demonstrated the most efficient bombing with both dumb and laser-guided bombs, notably because their targeting computers allowed on-the-fly damage assessment of targets. The F-16's demonstrated the worst effectiveness due to their high weapons release, and because most of the "tank plinking" was done with them. The A-6's used a comparable targeting system that was every bit as effective as the F-111's except in high threat kill boxes, where they had a too high of weapons release, too.

 

[CocaCola5]

The F-111s were the quiet workhorse of Desert Storm, while all the attention was on the F-117s at the time.

 

[UThomas]

"The B2 is almost 4 times as big as the F117A yet has a smaller radar signature. That tells you how outdated the F117As stealth technology is."

That doesn't make the F117 outdated, it just makes the B2 very good. Size is irrelevant to radar signature, it is the design that is key. If you scaled up the B2 10 times it would still have the same radar signiture. The real reason it is smaller on radar than the F117 is b/c it has curved surfaces. The equations for doing that when the F117 was in production were too intensive without very powerful computers at the time.

F117's hit Bagdad on the first night, dropping the first bombs. They didn't wait for scraps after the fact. They went in before the early warning radar was knocked out by Apaches. F117's were 2% of the allied air assets, and flew only 1% of the total sorties (1271). But they accounted for 40% of all damaged targets and compiled a 75% direct hit ratio.

They are hardly obsolete.

Thomas

 

[Hammer]

I think you're wrong about that. If you scaled the B2 10 times the radar signature would increase by factor of 10. If the aircraft is bigger of course the radar cross-section it presents would be bigger.

My point is that the F117A is not very efficient compared to the B2.



<< That doesn't make the F117 outdated, it just makes the B2 very good. Size is irrelevant to radar signature, it is the design that is key. If you scaled up the B2 10 times it would still have the same radar signiture. The real reason it is smaller on radar than the F117 is b/c it has curved surfaces. The equations for doing that when the F117 was in production were too intensive without very powerful computers at the time. >>

 

[UThomas]

Actually you would be wrong. Read the book Skunk Works, which is a detailed history of the developement of stealth technology. You could make an F117 the size of a jumbo jet and if it had the same smooth surfaces and design it would have the exact same radar signiture, which is about the size of a marble.

Thomas

 

[glenn1]

<< F-117A NIGHTHAWK - What upgrades should they do to them? >>



The payload ought to be lightened... by about 40,000 pounds of Mk-82 non-precision guided munitions, preferrably over the Presidential Palace in Baghdad.

 

[Scarpozzi]

I think they should sell those F-117As to some warlord like they do everything else and bring back the SR-71 Blackbird! I mean, one of my favorite lines in a movie is one from the 80s...I can't remember the movie, but some kid android decided to steal an SR-71.. He's flying it and a commander said, "Shoot him down now!" The other guy said, "We don't have missles that can catch him!" That's speed!

 

[BCYL]

I doubt they would ever sell the F-117 to anyone, no matter how outdated they are/will be... the USAF cannot give the stealth technology away....

Remember the concern when that one F-117 was down in Dessert Storm? everyone was worried the secret to stealth would be leaked...