Extreme example of why socialism isn't good

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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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The point is that socialized distribution of food is not a necessity. America has never had anything resembling a famine. Socialist nations, on the other hand, frequently do.
.

The Great Depression got pretty damn close.

depression-starvation-1.jpg


We are one plant virus/bacteria away from mass starvation. Given that evolution happens, starvation could happen as well.

The point is that most 1st world nations are very socialist (America is perhaps the least). Socialism is obviously a working model or nations like the Netherlands, Sweden, etc.... wouldn't be doing so well.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,111
318
126
The Great Depression got pretty damn close.

depression-starvation-1.jpg


We are one plant virus/bacteria away from mass starvation. Given that evolution happens, starvation could happen as well.

The point is that most 1st world nations are very socialist (America is perhaps the least). Socialism is obviously a working model or nations like the Netherlands, Sweden, etc.... wouldn't be doing so well.

Not sure where you got that image from, but a reverse Google Image search is telling me it was from the Holodomor (an arguably-orchestrated famine-genocide perpetrated by the Communist Russians against Ukraine).

I do agree that exploding world population and increasing dependence on limited strains of foods could at some point lead to an unprecedented starvation under any system of government, but Yellowstone could also explode or a meteor could hit or whatever else, and it would be out of our (or at least the market's) hands. That's why I tend to favor population control (free birth control and abortions work best) and ethical eugenics, rather than trusting parents to have children indiscriminately. Means of economic production can only do so much to handle reproduction.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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Not sure where you got that image from, but a reverse Google Image search is telling me it was from the Holodomor (an arguably-orchestrated famine-genocide perpetrated by the Communist Russians against Ukraine).

Could be.... I just did a google search on Great Depression and starvation and linked the first photo I ran into. Read the The Jungle from Upton Sinclair to find out what unfettered capitalism was like in America (specifically the Chicago slaughterhouses). It was a horror show.

I do know that my great grandparents fed many drifters at their farm during the Depression. It was a common occurrence.

The real point though is that more socialist nations than America are doing as well if not better than America in almost all categories of human well-being. In fact the top 10 nations are all more socialistic than America.

  • Australia
  • New Zealand
  • The Netherlands
  • Canada
  • Finland
  • Norway
  • Iceland
  • Switzerland
  • Denmark
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
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About the Depression:

It might be judicious to start by studying the broad effect of the Depression on the American people. The main effect of the depression was to bring poverty and unemployment over the country. In fact, according to National Industrial Conference Board, there were 12,5 million jobless or 13 million according to the American Federation of Labour.[3] The Americans could no longer rely on wages; some used the money of their life insurance or borrowed from relatives.[4] There was a drop of forty per cent in the amount of money paid a s salaries. The cut in salaries was general and affected every profession.[5] Dixon Wecter writes that the effects of the Depression were not felt in the first year of the crisis; the Americans were ‘reluctant to admit the Hard Times’.[6] The hard times were not so hard in at the beginning of the depression. However, after two years, poverty and unemployment became rampant and obvious.[7] Dixon even says that the severity and hopelessness of the crisis were without parallel.[8] Indeed, a part of the American people experience extreme poverty. For instance, in New York, there was the ‘Hoover Valley’, a settlement in Central Park while other homeless lived in abandoned factories.[9] Poverty was so harsh so that 29 people died of starvation in New York, and the Philadelphia’s Community Health centre experienced a rise of sixty per cent in its malnutrition diagnoses between 1928 and 1932.[10]Restaurants fed the starving with leftover and garbage eating became a common practice.[11] Hence, it can be noted that the hard times were hard because it consisted in a drop in income and the appearance of extreme poverty. The Hard Times where so hard so that the general standard of living worsen and a large part of the population could not rely on the economic system.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
30,119
31,108
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Ireland was a property of England, and the Corn Laws worked against them. Tariffs and protectionism are not free trade, even if they are usually used to exploit market economies to favor the powers that be. The UK also starved several million Indians, but that is a consequence of colonialism and war.

Point being not socialism.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,111
318
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I can't read the citation regarding those 29 deaths from home but it's apparently available via my institution, I'll see if it goes into details. From doing some Googling, it seems like NYC was the worse hit of any area in the USA, and Harlem worse than the other boroughs. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a racial aspect to it, but fair enough, I probably stand corrected. A handful of people died, more than zero, likely the marginalized in society, much as homeless and the mentally ill still starve themselves today when caregivers cannot access them.

I'm not saying the Great Depression smelled like roses btw, just saying that if you look at any mass starvation, the primary causes are horrible government mismanagement of agriculture (Bengal famine, Irish famine, Holodomor, the Great Leap Forward, etc).

Point being not socialism.

My initial post was just to dispute WHAMPOM's claim that socialized food distribution is not necessary to prevent widespread starvation. I fully acknowledge that socialism in that regard can prevent hunger and work reasonably well (though it would be interesting to know if there's a correlation between perpetual welfare programs and morbid obesity leading to premature death).
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,869
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I can't read the citation regarding those 29 deaths from home but it's apparently available via my institution, I'll see if it goes into details. From doing some Googling, it seems like NYC was the worse hit of any area in the USA, and Harlem worse than the other boroughs. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a racial aspect to it, but fair enough, I probably stand corrected. A handful of people died, more than zero, likely the marginalized in society, much as homeless and the mentally ill still starve themselves today when caregivers cannot access them.

I'm not saying the Great Depression smelled like roses btw, just saying that if you look at any mass starvation, the primary causes are horrible government mismanagement of agriculture (Bengal famine, Irish famine, Holodomor, the Great Leap Forward, etc).



My initial post was just to dispute WHAMPOM's claim that socialized food distribution is not necessary to prevent widespread starvation. I fully acknowledge that socialism in that regard can prevent hunger and work reasonably well (though it would be interesting to know if there's a correlation between perpetual welfare programs and morbid obesity leading to premature death).
My theory is that the best prevention of starvation is having food to eat. I can add to that that the government that solves rat problems goes a long way to doing that. I heard that in China they had a fly infestation and Mao ordered the people to kill files which cured the problem. Perhaps communism is on to a partial solution. Perhaps we need laws requiring people to eat one rat a day.