external hard drive: firewire or usb2.0?

[BlazingSaddles]

I am getting a new laptop (600m) and it doesn't have a firewire port. Currently, I have an external hard drive that is only fire wire compatible. my choices are:
1) buy a new enclosure, usb2.0 compliant (~$40)
2) buy a firewire pc card (~$28)

which one should i do? there is only one pccard slot in the 600m, so i'm worried what would happen if i needed to use another card. also, the firewire card is the least expensive i could find, are there any differences between card qualities?

thanks.

 

[jaeger66]

I'd go the USB2 route.

 

[RalfHutter]

Firewire has faster real-world transfer speed (almost double) than USB 2.0. If that matters, go with Firewire, if not stay with USB 2.0.

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: RalfHutter
Firewire has faster real-world transfer speed (almost double) than USB 2.0. If that matters, go with Firewire, if not stay with USB 2.0.

USB 2.0 is 480Mbps. Firewire is 400Mbps. Plus, the USB controller is probably integral to the chipset so there would be no PCI bus issues.

 

[addragyn]

USB 2.0 is 480Mbps. Firewire is 400Mbps. Plus, the USB controller is probably integral to the chipset so there would be no PCI bus issues.

Real world. What PCI bus issues? Technically Firewire flips USB like a pancake. Here are some links:

1
2
3
4

Of course USB is far more ubiquitous than Firewire and that can be a big advantage.

 

[jaeger66]

Originally posted by: addragyn

Real world. What PCI bus issues? Technically Firewire flips USB like a pancake. Here are some links:

1
2
3
4

Of course USB is far more ubiquitous than Firewire and that can be a big advantage.

Your links point to nothing relevant and I'm not wading through 14 pages of posts to find what you were trying to show. Can you give me the summary? The few results I've seen comparing the 2 are not sufficient to establish the speeds of the bus; rather the speeds of the devices. And speed wasn't why I said USB in the first place.

Anyway, a USB 2.0 controller may well be off the PCI bus totally by way of some sort of hub architecture. FW will always be PCI, which may or may not be a problem depending on the system.

 

[addragyn]

Your links point to nothing relevant and I'm not wading through 14 pages of posts to find what you were trying to show.

You don't need to wade through anything, the links go directly to the intended posts.

1. Shows a real world eperience of Firewire being faster than USB2.
2. Explains one reason why Firewire may be faster relative to USB when conneceting to an ATA device.
3. A very easy to digest descriprtion of the inefficiencies of the USB protocol. IOW why the 480 versus 400 figure is meaningless.
4. Visits the concept of one of the coolest things about Firewire. It doesn't need a root. USB needs a computer to make a connection, Firewire doesn't. It means Firewire can do stuff USB can't in places USB can't go. And it does it all faster. A weak example would be plugging an iPod into a stereo. It's no big mystery that Intel would hoist the inferior USB2 onto the mainstream years after Firewire had appeared. They are in the CPU business.


Firewire can be integrated into the chipset just like USB can, e.g. nForce. Neither is fast enough to tax PCI so I don't see what difference it makes one way or another. Furthermore something can be integrated onto a chipset and still sit on PCI. But so what? We're not talking about some I/O monster here.

 

[BoberFett]

Get an external case that supports both.

Here's the mfr

Newegg lists it as available 4/25 @ $54.

 

[Viper0329]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Get an external case that supports both.

Here's the mfr

Newegg lists it as available 4/25 @ $54.

Now that is what i call a compromise. Kudos to you my friend.

 

[thorin]

Try here or here

You're better off going with Firewire. Or even better if you get something like this (~$87 CDN) you can use USB1.1, USB2.0, or Firewire400.

Thorin

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Can i interject and say, it doesn't matter, cause your HDD isn't going to transfer at those speeds anyways.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: thorin
Try here or here

You're better off going with Firewire. Or even better if you get something like this (~$87 CDN) you can use USB1.1, USB2.0, or Firewire400.

Thorin

Either way, Firewire or USB2, neither is exactly ubiquitous. Most machines still have USB 1.1 which is pathetic for throughput. But in a pinch, at least a USB external drive could be hooked up to an older USB 1.1 machine.

 

[addragyn]

Can i interject and say, it doesn't matter, cause your HDD isn't going to transfer at those speeds anyways.

C'mon, why limit yourself to a one device lifestyle!

 

[thorin]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: thorin
Try here or here

You're better off going with Firewire. Or even better if you get something like this (~$87 CDN) you can use USB1.1, USB2.0, or Firewire400.

Either way, Firewire or USB2, neither is exactly ubiquitous. Most machines still have USB 1.1 which is pathetic for throughput. But in a pinch, at least a USB external drive could be hooked up to an older USB 1.1 machine.

Uh that's why I said go with something that supports both (or well all 3).

Thorin

 

[markOpoleO]

If its just for backup, use whatever is easiest. If you use HD alot, go firewire no doubt.

USB2 main disadvantage is it does not keep a constant data stream, it drops off and on. Firewire keeps a steading one.

Btw notebooks external drives are pretty sweet, cause they draw power off Ps2 port instead of external power source. Assuming you go that route.

 

[Czar]

takes me about 50seconds to copy a 700mb file to my usb2 enclosure, isnt that fast enough?

 

[corkyg]

I use both, and Firewire is just a little bit faster on actual data throughput. But - consider this - new Apple computers are using Firewire800. USB2 has a long row to hoe. Having both with devices installed, I find Firewire to be just a shade more bulletproof and user friendly. But, either one will do the job. My scanner works on either - but seems happier with Firewire. Firewire is a SCSI derivative and has some solid mature technology - but marketing hype makes USB 2 today's Zip drive.

 

[dakels]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Can i interject and say, it doesn't matter, cause your HDD isn't going to transfer at those speeds anyways.

It's not? Most current ATA drives have sustained transfer rates well into 50MB/sec and even higher burst rates. Thats 400mbit right there on one device. Thats one drive completely saturating your bus. Firewire chains it's devices and shares the bandwidth across all connections on that chain so if you have 2 drives, they now have to share 400mbit max, thats only 20MB/sec per theoretical.

Its not the drive or firewire that slows down firewire devices. Its the bridge that converts the IDE of the drive into the Firewire. Getting a good firewire bridge/chipset like Oxford 911 will give you much better performance and open up the botleneck of the IDE bridge.

 

[human2k]

Fire wire! Fire wire!

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: dakels

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Can i interject and say, it doesn't matter, cause your HDD isn't going to transfer at those speeds anyways.

It's not? Most current ATA drives have sustained transfer rates well into 50MB/sec and even higher burst rates. Thats 400mbit right there on one device. Thats one drive completely saturating your bus. Firewire chains it's devices and shares the bandwidth across all connections on that chain so if you have 2 drives, they now have to share 400mbit max, thats only 20MB/sec per theoretical.

Its not the drive or firewire that slows down firewire devices. Its the bridge that converts the IDE of the drive into the Firewire. Getting a good firewire bridge/chipset like Oxford 911 will give you much better performance and open up the botleneck of the IDE bridge.

Bullsh!t. Most drives do not have transfer rates of 50+. The absolute fastest IDE drives today have peak transfer rates in the 60s at the beginning of the drive, and 40s at the end. And real world isn't going to hit that often. To say most drives are that fast is flat out wrong.

 

[McCarthy]

I've got the baby brother to that case linked above....for 3.5" drives instead of 5.25. I'd love a 5.25 one, need to add to the rainy day fund. 3.5 didn't ventilate great so I drilled the vent holes bigger, that helped. 5.25 would give more air options and possibly work with drive pullouts, something that would also be handy. Don't see why it wouldn't work except the cases are flimsy so you'd have to be careful, maybe reenforce with epoxy. Sturdy when assembled, but not meant to be taken apart and put together a lot. Snaps together instead of screws.

Haven't used it in USB2.0 mode, never had cause. Use the firewire part and it's as snappy and transfers as fast as the drives inside the case. Peak transfer may be off, but I sure don't feel it, no system slowdown when in use and damn handy. Where you have both options it's hard to go wrong with that one. Just wanted to stop in and say that it works fine (the baby brother one does anyway).

--Mc

 

[alexruiz]

Firewire all the way. There have been several threads asking this question, and in ALL the real world results, firewire murders USB 2.0......

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: alexruiz
Firewire all the way. There have been several threads asking this question, and in ALL the real world results, firewire murders USB 2.0......

Unless of course your machine doesn't have Firewire, in which case Firewires transfer rate would be a big fat zero.

Part of the idea of an external drive is portability. There are far more machines without Firewire than with. If you absolutely have to choose one or the other, USB is a better option for portability, while a cage that supports both USB and Firewire is ideal.

 

[RightHere]

Originally posted by: addragyn
4. Visits the concept of one of the coolest things about Firewire. It doesn't need a root. USB needs a computer to make a connection, Firewire doesn't. It means Firewire can do stuff USB can't in places USB can't go. And it does it all faster. A weak example would be plugging an iPod into a stereo. It's no big mystery that Intel would hoist the inferior USB2 onto the mainstream years after Firewire had appeared. They are in the CPU business.

This is always one of my favorite FW vs. USB 2.0 points.

What can you do today with 2 FW devices WITHOUT a computer in the mix?
- Can you plug a HD into your DV camera? Nope.
- Can you plug a HD into your NetCommand module in your Mitsubishi TV? Nope.
- Can you plug an iPod into any stereo today and have it actually play music? Don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.
- Can you plug your iPod into your DVHS VCR and transfer the movie to the HD? Nope.
- Can you plug your scanner into a HD and capture images directly to that drive? Nope.'
This list could go on and on and on, but you get the point.

* - ok, you CAN plug them in physically. But they don't do anything. And that's really the point here.

While touted as one of the great features of the technology, the reality is that not only do you need a PC in the mix, you're gonna want one too. You need some kind of consistent user interface. I don't think that HAVi gives you that. And I guess you don't really need this NOW. But in 5 years or so when these ports are common on all of your home AV gear (at least I hope that happens someday), you'll want one interface.

What do you mean by "Firewire can do stuff USB can't in places USB can't go"?

Someone else on the thread says that firewire "murders" USB 2.0 when it comes to performance. That person clearly hasn't used both types of devices on a regular basis.

 

[addragyn]

RightHere you're saying that if you don't know about something on your list it doesn't exist. Ignorance of something is not proof of it's not being and second you're incorrect with some of the items on your list.

- Can you plug a HD into your DV camera? Nope.

FireStore series products convert any IEEE-1394 (FireWire, i.Link) drive into high performance Digital Disk Recorder/Players. Record directly to disk from your digital camcorder, VTR, or mixer. link

- Can you plug a HD into your NetCommand module in your Mitsubishi TV? Nope.

NetCommand is a "control system" you wouldn't plug a HD into it. Now using FireWire to plug the following into a TV, that makes sense.

The company will introduce the HD-5000 in the spring for distribution to its network of high-service retailers with a suggested value price of $1,699. The HD-5000 has two analog tuners, one digital tuner, a full input array for connection to HD and non-HD home theater components, three FireWire(R) connections for AV networking, the Home Audio Video interoperability (HAVi) software system, NetCommand(TM) on-screen icon-based analog and digital control system, and the full functionality of a high-performance television system in a set-top-box design. link

Can you plug an iPod into any stereo today and have it actually play music? Don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.

iPodDock if you can't bear to set the thing down flat and use a mini-jack to RCA cable. If you mean through FireWire, why? It's a portable device designed to kick out the tunes through a set of headphones.


Can you plug your iPod into your DVHS VCR and transfer the movie to the HD? Nope.

Can you plug your DVHS VCR into your dishwasher? No! Because they aren't designed to plug together. If Apple and whomever makes your VCR wanted them to work together could they? Yes. Could they do that with USB2? No. Not w/o redefining the spec or sticking a computer inside one of the devices.


Can you plug your scanner into a HD and capture images directly to that drive? Nope.'

Missing the point. If for some odd reason somebody wanted this device you could build it with FireWire. The technology is not the limitation.


This list could go on and on and on, but you get the point.

The list was stupid and partially wrong. Here are some examples of FireWire being used in a multitude of ways.

One of the biggest hurdles in the development of DVD-Audio was overcome in September, when the DVD Forum adopted FireWire as the digital transmission method for the DVD-Audio format. Gone, in principle, is the need for the six analog outputs from a DVD-Audio player and/or the need for six analog inputs on your AV preamp when connecting a DVD-Audio player. link

Mindready is a world pioneer in developing hardware and software solutions based on the powerful IEEE-1394 high-speed communication standard. Mindready also offers complete turnkey consulting and engineering services through the design, development and integration of communications solutions for embedded systems. link

In-Flight Entertainment (IFE) has reached a new level of sophistication with the introduction of P@ssport, a high bandwidth system by Rockwell Collins, Cedar Rapids, IA, which makes possible a variety of passenger amenities, including Internet access. The system incorporates a fiber-optic backbone, expanded-beam fiber-optic interconnects, an ATM switch and a downstream copper distribution system. The optical digital signals originate at the system's servers, traveling on the fiber backbone. Downstream the path converts to a FireWire distribution network that takes the signals to electronics boxes at individual passenger seats. link

The FIREstation is designed to be the heart of your digital recording studio. You can plug in microphones, instruments and external preamps into the analog inputs while monitoring them in real time without latency. Any mLAN compatible keyboard such as the Yamaha Motif or Korg Triton Studio can be seamlessly patched into the FireWire ports of the FIREstation to send audio and MIDI information to your computer. Need more inputs? Just daisy chain multiple FIREstations for up to 40 channels of I/O. link

What do you mean by "Firewire can do stuff USB can't in places USB can't go"?

You're thinking of FireWire in a narrow PC-centric light. That's definitely a use, but it's not exclusive. FireWire is just a damn good interface. USB or USB2 wouldn't work for mLAN or HAVi FireWire does.

If you look around different industries, things not directly tied to things like connecting a scanner or a webcam to some host PC, you ought to notice that FireWire is currently becoming very pervasive on high-end devices as a smart control and interconnect interface.

USB is designed to be a PC peripheral expansion interface. The protocols and design characteristics of it are enough evidence of that. FireWire is designed to do that and MUCH more, and the protocols and design characteristics are of it are also enough evidence of that.

In arenas not tied to connecting common consumer devices to PC's FireWire is finding new homes and innovative uses everyday in new and old industries alike. link

See http://www.1394ta.org/About/products/ for examples.