Explain to me the politics of greed . . .

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91
I was listening to talk radio on the way home for some reason, and the announcer was really harping on the fact that there is "no need to cut taxes for the wealthy."

That kind of got me thinking. . . . so here I go.

To me, a low-income tax cut is nothing more than a political ploy. I made about $24,000 last year, and I paid just over two grand in taxes all told. That's without any special deductions for children, the earned-income credit, or interest write offs - none of which I qualify for.

Anyway, recently got a promotion which kicked my annual salary up to about $41,000, or 70% higher than what it was before. But my paycheck is only 50% higher than what it was before - where'd my money go? (I know, but I'm trying to make a point.)

There is a trend of punishing success that is rather perturbing. Let's take Tiger Woods, for example. There's no question that he is a charismatic and skilled athlete. He is payed well for his talent at doing something better than anyone else in the world. He is payed well by companies who want him to endore there products. But half of the money he earns is taken away from him in taxes.

So what does he do? He hires a tax lawyer, who scavenges through the tax code to find any loopholes he can, and save Tiger a bit of his money. For the sake of argument, let's say Tiger saves 15% of his salary this way.

Successful people, for obvious reasons, want to keep their money. They've earned it - no one can say otherwise. These successful people hire lobbyists, and these lobbyists go to Congress and the Senate, and they intice lawmakers to insert loopholes into the tax code so that their clients can save some of their money.

As a result of the complicated tax code, auditors are needed to study the tax returns to make sure they're done correctly and legally, requiring the government to increase the number of employees in the IRS.

Now, my question is, why not settle on a set percentage - say fifteen to twenty percent, and charge everyone the same (I'm talking about FICA only, of course)9? This is a "fair" policy, despite what some politicians would say. Charging everyone the same proportion is a fair taxation. As a result, tax returns become much simpler, and the size of the IRS can be reduced, saving the government - and Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Taxpayer - money. There's no need to lobby for loopholes, because the tax code could literally be written out on one page. The employees of the IRS could focus on the taxes for corporations.

What happens? People have more money, so they will do one of two things - they will save it, or spend it. If they save it, they're investing in American infrastructure, and our banks become healthier. If the money is spent, it improves the economy. Would it cause inflation? I'm not sure; it's possible, but some judicious interest rate wrangling by Allan Greenspan would probably keep it under control. But more money spent means more products consumed which means more jobs, and hence, more money. It works, it makes sense . . . so why are we punishing success? I want the other 20% of my raise!
 

Raspewtin

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 1999
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<< Now, my question is, why not settle on a set percentage - say fifteen to twenty percent, and charge everyone the same >>




Ah, the flat-rate issue. Forbes tried to run on this alone pretty much, so your views are held by many individuals. Even if we had a flat tax, what about double taxation (for ex, estate taxes), etc? What about pass-through tax status that some enjoy (LLCs), while most lose some on the corporate level, and again on the individual level? I believe the US has different tax brackets, b/c they believe at certain income levels, purchasing power is such, that they can afford to pay a larger percentage of each dollar to Uncle Sam, since it won't make a significant difference in their style of life, while if they took that same tax burden and spread it by percentage over everyone, the purchasing power of the average individual would significantly drop, negatively impacting the economy. That's just a guess, though.

Rockefeller said &quot;Only acquire taxable income for consumption,&quot; so the wealthy often grow wealthier in tax-free vehicles anyway. There are MANY ways to defer and completely legally avoid paying taxes while achieving growth and income.



<< If they save it, they're investing in American infrastructure, and our banks become healthier >>



Just b/c the wealthy are saving, that doesn't mean (1) our banks are any healthier (2) the American infrastructure is what their investing in.

Fact of the matter is that the bulk of tax revenue comes from the wealthy, and it will always remain that way IMO, whether the wealthy like it or not. Social problems trickle upwards, and the fact is, if purchasing power drops, spending decreases, unemployment rises, the wealthy are negatively impacted.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,644
6,459
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One way to look at it is to see that the reason you can earn 41000 a year is because you're in the US of A with all it's fantastic infrastructure and public educated go getters provided to you via us tax payers. There are no taxes in the jungle. I want I need its not fair it's MY money. You're a victom of Robin Hood and your kids will be winners. Count your blessings!!!!
 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91


<< Even if we had a flat tax, what about double taxation (for ex, estate taxes), etc? What about pass-through tax status that some enjoy (LLCs), while most lose some on the corporate level, and again on the individual level? >>



That's an easy one. Let's say I work hard, and I live a good life. Along the way, I save my money, and put it in the bank. I've paid income tax on that money while earning it, and I've paid taxes on the interest its earned. When I die, why should that money be taxed again? Answer is, it shouldn't. I believe the estate tax bill will be passed; if Gore wins, he will sign it to further seperate himself from Clinton; if Bush wins, he'll sign it, also.



<< One way to look at it is to see that the reason you can earn 41000 a year is because you're in the US of A with all it's fantastic infrastructure and public educated go getters provided to you via us tax payers. >>



Sure, that's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is to say that I could have just as easily dropped out of high school, gotten a part-time job at McDonalds, and applied for welfare. Nobody made me bust my butt for four years, taking 15-20 hours of college night classes while working full time. I'm glad I live in America, I'm proud of my country, and I'm proud to be an American (though some liberals would say that such jingoistic patriotism is politically incorrect.) I got an education from the United States, yes, but my parents paid taxes for me to go to school. I worked a part time job after school for bus far, clothing, and other sundries a teenager needs. Nobody made me work hard and get good grades - that's something I did myself. Our school's shop building was torn down, so I couldn't take any electronics classes in high school - I went to the library and taught myself.

I guess I'm just saying that if you keep punishing those who work hard and become successful, less people will strive for it.
 

Raspewtin

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 1999
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<< I believe the estate tax bill will be passed; if Gore wins, he will sign it to further seperate himself from Clinton; if Bush wins, he'll sign it, also. >>



I agree with you that it should be passed. I don't know if Gore will sign it. However I think it will be eventually reinstated. The one Clinton defeated would cost the country a signficant sum (700 billion a year in 10 years I think I heard). I'm willing to bet if it gets repealed, it will get reinstated around 2009, when the next big U.S. recession will occur.

My point re: double taxation was purely that even with a flat tax, there would be unequal percentage of taxation, purely on a federal level (not counting state, city, etc tax)


Red Dawn, if they removed all deductions and loopholes, you're probably right.