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Experts Consider Rationing System to Reduce Energy Use/Global Warming. --WITH POLL--

Amused

Elite Member
Can a Rationing System Reduce Pollution?
By Alister Doyle
Reuters
OSLO (Aug. 16) - Filling up the car at the petrol station could take a few seconds longer in future -- to deduct points from your personal "greenhouse gas" ration card.

Issuing every citizen with an electronic card to encourage them to reduce energy use is one of the most radical ideas for curbing reliance on fossil fuels, widely blamed for global warming .

But critics say a rationing system, linked to personal financial rewards and penalties for millions of people, could be a costly slide toward Big Brother-style surveillance.

"It is easy to dismiss the idea as too complex administratively, too Utopian or too much of a burden for citizens," British Environment Secretary David Miliband said last month in a speech floating the idea of individual allowances.

"But ... in the long term, there may be potential to make a system work," he said.

Britain has come further than other nations, simply by airing the idea. Most other governments focus on education -- advising people to install energy-saving lightbulbs or turn down the thermostat in winter -- or on taxes as a way to spur lifestyle changes to cut energy use.

And many experts doubt that voters would accept cards, and billion-dollar administrative costs, especially in countries such as the United States which is not part of the United Nations' Kyoto Protocol on capping greenhouse gas emissions.

"The idea is too fraught with problems. It's overkill," said Raymond Kopp, a senior fellow at the Resources for the Future environmental think-tank in Washington. He noted that many people, even in the United States, do not even use credit cards.

He estimated personal rations for carbon dioxide, the main greenhouse gas, might only be worth a dollar or two a day -- a relatively small sum that would not encourage consumers to take part in the scheme by making efforts to cut their consumption.

"Americans wouldn't accept rationing for this -- it would cost less than a latte a day," he said.

IMPOSSIBLE

"In theory, these proposals look very nice but in practice it would be impossible to control," said Paal Prestrud, head of the Center for International Climate and Environmental Research in Oslo. "There must be 100 ways to get round it."

Many scientists say use of fossil fuels in power plants, factories and households will drive up temperatures and could spur floods, heatwaves, and rising sea levels by 2100. Most nations say it makes sense to cut fossil fuel use, especially with oil prices around $75 a barrel.

"In my view there is no alternative to quotas in the long run," said David Fleming, a British policy analyst who suggested the idea a decade ago. "The point is that it opens up the way to achieve serious energy reductions."

Citizens' energy purchases -- mainly to buy petrol, heating fuel or electricity generated by fossil fuels -- make up about 30-40 percent of greenhouse gas emissions in developed nations.

Under rationing, all buyers of energy -- including citizens, companies and the government -- would take part with quotas.

Every adult would get an account with allowances for carbon dioxide emissions linked to an electronic card, perhaps with an emblem like a green planet or a factory belching fumes.

Points would be deducted every time energy was bought. Anyone exceeding their quota would have to pay a higher price for any more energy bought during the year while those below quota could cash in surplus allowances.

Those who felt the system involved too much hassle could simply cash in the allowances and pay higher energy prices year-round as a tax. And every year the allowances would be cut, to squeeze energy use lower and lower.

60 SECONDS

A report by the British Tyndall Center for Climate Change Research estimated that queuing and transaction time at petrol stations could add an average 45-60 seconds to every person's visit, assuming a separate carbon card.

Fleming argues banks could add carbon allowances to existing credit cards, simplifying the system.

"People don't feel neutral about the idea," said Richard Starkey, an author of the Tyndall Center study which broadly concluded quotas were feasible. "They either really like it or they don't. Either it's great or it's Big Brother."

Many governments reckon that education and carbon trading schemes limited to big emitters such as power plants and factories -- as in the European Union market since 2005 -- are better ways to cut back.

"Turn down. Switch off. Recycle. Walk," are the slogans of a European Commission campaign to encourage energy efficiency.

Americans, the world's top emitters of greenhouse gases, emit an average of about 20 tonnes of carbon dioxide a year, with perhaps 7 tonnes from transport and households. On average, the world's 6.5 billion people emit about 3.6 tonnes each.

In the EU market among major industrial emitters of carbon dioxide, prices are around 16 euros ($20.45) a tonne. Assuming identical prices for individuals, seven tonnes would cost each American $143 a year or 40 cents a day.

Starkey said uncertainties included whether some people -- those living in cold northern regions or people with large families -- might demand extra allowances.

And it was unclear whether people would be happy to check their accounts online or if the government would take on the huge extra cost of mailing tens of millions of statements.
 
I am not so concerned with global warming as I am about the US/China showdown over the last oil fields in the not too distant future.

😉
 
The weather around here has been great the past couple years. No more nasty snow storms. Just nice mild winters, and the summers have been tolerable as well. :thumbsup: to global warming.
 
Originally posted by: PingSpike
The weather around here has been great the past couple years. No more nasty snow storms. Just nice mild winters, and the summers have been tolerable as well. :thumbsup: to global warming.

Yeah, screw the africans anyways! Let them die.
 
fvck that. What a retarded policy. I should be able to use however much energy I require--no more, no less.
 
Points would be deducted every time energy was bought. Anyone exceeding their quota would have to pay a higher price for any more energy bought during the year while those below quota could cash in surplus allowances.

perhaps we should abandon all energy and go back to the dark ages.
 
GLOBAL WARMING!!!!111

Wasn't there a study just posted here on ATOT the other day talking about how the warming models may be completely off because....yep, you guessed it, the Earth is constantly in flux.
 
I can understand carbon rationing / market systems for corporations, but for individual citizens? It would take an enormous number of intrusive resources to properly enforce.

EDIT: Can you split your poll into energy rationing systems for individuals and for corporations?
 
Originally posted by: MrChad
I can understand carbon rationing / market systems for corporations, but for individual citizens? It would take an enormous number of intrusive resources to properly enforce.

EDIT: Can you split your poll into energy rationing systems for individuals and for corporations?

Stick it to those evil corporations!
 
Originally posted by: Feldenak
Originally posted by: MrChad
I can understand carbon rationing / market systems for corporations, but for individual citizens? It would take an enormous number of intrusive resources to properly enforce.

EDIT: Can you split your poll into energy rationing systems for individuals and for corporations?

Stick it to those evil corporations!

He's right though. Its just more government beaucracy that will continue to grow more inefficient the longer it exists. Corporations would be a little more feasible, but honestly I feel the market is doing ok as is. It cost more to use more energy, therefore there is already a pressure to use less. For everyone.

This idea is only one step behind installing GPS systems in hybrid cars to tax them for each mile they drove. When you spend $5 to collect $1, you have to question whether you're action performing any kind of service at all. Besides ass raping I mean.
 
But critics say a rationing system, linked to personal financial rewards and penalties for millions of people, could be a costly slide toward Big Brother-style surveillance.

That doesn't sound like rationing at all... it sounds like they use the word "rationing" to evoke an emotional response, because most people think rationing is bad. This sounds like they'd just be making people pay more for polluting more. I don't see anything wrong with that.

There's a big difference between forcing someone to do something and giving them an economic incentive to do it. This is like tax rebates on hybrids and higher taxes on SUVs.
 
i would riot/revolt against communist actions like that

this is a capitalist society, not communist
 
First: Global warming exists, but we don't have nearly as much to do with it as certain people will tell you. The planet naturally cools and warms in cycles - we're on an upswing.

Secondly, That's great. On paper. But in reality, the government overhead required to run it would use more energy than the whole damned thing would save.



Oh, and a note to all the god damned californians who want to b!tch about fossil fuel consumption (or at least the 2 of you who can and do vote).

There are nuclear power plants in your state. They're ALL sitting there, doing NOTHING, because your government decided they wanted to make it nearly impossible to operate them. Because of that, the power companies just turned the things off and started buying power from other states - generally made from burning coal, or oil. If your nuclear plants were turned back on and brought to full capacity, the exact opposite could take place - you could be exporting electricity to those other power markets, and shut down the polluting plants.

But no, you guys are too involved in your own state's egotrip to give a sh!t about the rest of the planet - you guys don't have power plants. That makes you better than us. I, personally, would not mind one little bit if they built a nuke plant in my back yard. I'm sure they'd have problems cooling it off that little creek, but that's for them to figure out.
 
Rationing is overly complicated and inefficient. It would be much more cost effective to just tax nonrenewable fuels, and not tax renewable energy. Exempt fuels with greater than 50% renewable content from the existing gas tax, and partially exempt fuels with 4-49% renewable content from said tax. Tax coal, nuclear, and natural gas, but not wind or solar energy. Just a 7% tax on nonrenewable fuels would be enough to kickoff a shift in demand towards renewables, while generating much-needed revenue for a government that is trillions of dollars in debt.

Of course if no such shift occurs then rationing will become the only option once demand exceeds supply, since suppy of nonrenewables cannot be increased further due to their limited nature.
 
Originally posted by: newmachineoverlord
Rationing is overly complicated and inefficient. It would be much more cost effective to just tax nonrenewable fuels, and not tax renewable energy. Exempt fuels with greater than 50% renewable content from the existing gas tax, and partially exempt fuels with 4-49% renewable content from said tax. Tax coal, nuclear, and natural gas, but not wind or solar energy. Just a 7% tax on nonrenewable fuels would be enough to kickoff a shift in demand towards renewables, while generating much-needed revenue for a government that is trillions of dollars in debt.

Of course if no such shift occurs then rationing will become the only option once demand exceeds supply, since suppy of nonrenewables cannot be increased further due to their limited nature.

if there is any tax the only one that should be imposed is one that properly internalizes the externalities.
 
Originally posted by: rudder
I am not so concerned with global warming as I am about the US/China showdown over the last oil fields in the not too distant future.

😉


Oooh sounds like Fallout. Time for me to build my vault.
 
Originally posted by: mugs
That doesn't sound like rationing at all... it sounds like they use the word "rationing" to evoke an emotional response, because most people think rationing is bad. This sounds like they'd just be making people pay more for polluting more. I don't see anything wrong with that.

There's a big difference between forcing someone to do something and giving them an economic incentive to do it. This is like tax rebates on hybrids and higher taxes on SUVs.

But you would be forced to do it, that's the only way the system of rewards/penalties could work.
 
Fvck that. How about we start switching over to hyrdo, wind, and nuclear power? And work on serious alternate energy sources for cars?
 
Hmmm... I'd simply have to buy 60 or 70 tons of coal before the cards went into use... Then I'd end up with a surplus because of a lack of CO2 released from heating my home. (it would be "off the books")

linked to an electronic card, perhaps with an emblem like a green planet or a factory belching fumes.
Usually when someone is dreaming about something unrealistic, then tend to get carried away with details; similar to someone who is telling a lie.

 
Why deal with cards? Why not just link it to car registrations, you have to get an odometer reading done when you renew your registration every year since they already know roughly the average mpg for each car. Won't be as accurate but there would be almost no additional infrastructure required.
 
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