Expert says Federal Reserve primary cause of economic disaster

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LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: bamacre
:laugh:

I only posted this because I wanted to see if the usuals would stoop to bashing Forbes in order to defend the Fed. Mission Accomplished. :laugh:

Isn't that posting a troll thread?

The Fed might have caused some of the problem, but not all of it.

It is interesting to see how little actual thought the libertopians post and how many attacks or dodges they post. Maybe it's because they are all image and no substance.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
noone with credibility with this.

Are you saying that anyone who believes that the Fed was the primary cause of this mess has no credibility?

I think that anyone who's reasonable would agree that the Federal Reserve isn't the primary cause of our current troubles. They may have provided certain incentives for companies to engage in loose lending, but people at those companies still had to knowingly do shady things in order for it all to happen. The greed of those people is the primary cause of the mess.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,055
12,245
136
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
noone with credibility with this.

Are you saying that anyone who believes that the Fed was the primary cause of this mess has no credibility?

I think that anyone who's reasonable would agree that the Federal Reserve isn't the primary cause of our current troubles. They may have provided certain incentives for companies to engage in loose lending, but people at those companies still had to knowingly do shady things in order for it all to happen. The greed of those people is the primary cause of the mess.

Hear hear.
 

racolvin

Golden Member
Jul 26, 2004
1,257
0
0
Originally posted by: Evan

This has nothing to do with me, I'm not saying anything that any other well informed average Joe with experience and education in these particular fields is saying. You're just going to have to realize on your own someday that you are, in fact, ill-informed in these discussions, because your sources, data, evidence, education, etc. are inadequate. To put it nicely, you're a layman. You may believe otherwise, but your "beliefs" aren't relevant, only what you can substantiate, deduce, reason, etc. You can't do any of it, and it's why informed people belittle and mock you. Get used to it.

Evan:

Something about this portion of your post bothers me enough to say something. Obviously I don't know you and I don't know your education, etc but from your statement here it sounds like you work in the financial sector, yes?

If that's a "yes" then this whole "you're a layman, you don't know squat, and you'll always be mocked for it" thing is a bit much isn't it? I mean, there's LOTS of us laymen out there who put our money in your hands to help us protect and grow in our investments. While we don't have your education or experience in the details that doesn't make us stupid. It does mean that you'll have to explain it to us in terms we understand but it also places a burden on you (not necessarily you personally of course, just the financial sector as a whole) to be stewards of our money and not do things that would place it at extraordinary risk without first making sure we are well informed of those risks.

If we laymen must find someone to blame for this mess I don't think the Federal Reserve is the sole culprit by a long shot. It was the financial sector as a whole that went wild with power over money that didn't belong to them with no oversight by regulators. Their own greed for bonuses and for profits that were manufactured out of thin air (leverage at 30:1+? holy crap) completely obscured their sense of risk management and custodianship for the layman's money that they were entrusted with via our 401ks, IRAs, etc, etc.

The Federal Reserves culpability in all this seems to be their total inability to allow the economy to experience its seemingly normal up/down cycles - you must allow people to fall down if they're ever going to learn from their mistakes. In trying to act as a dampening mechanism for the economy the Fed set up a situation where through monetary policy they would prevent the failing but allow the perpetual climb. In effect they almost guaranteed there would be a bubble or correction of epic proportions at some point in time.

The investment banks and other institutions that got creative in all these new financial instruments, many unregulated and not transparent to the investor, simply got greedy. They saw the potential for all this cash and forgot to take care of their customer. We've all seen the news stories and things about how the ratings agencies were coopted into providing falsely high ratings for shaky investment vehicles, making them look less risky than they were - that's pure greed, both on the part of the investment bank trying to pull a fast one over their investors and by the ratings agencies who would take fees (bribes?) to lie about the true risk of the investment.

The Government is culpable in two ways: lack of regulation of the financial sector (CDS's anyone?) and for excessive liberal policies in the housing sector that put people into mortgages/homes that truly couldn't afford them, in the name of "the American Dream".

Lastly in my little rant, we the laymen/consumers are culpable for believing that the gravy train would never end. We didn't save for a rainy day, we didn't question our financial advisers who led us astray, we didn't stop ourselves from spending like there was no tomorrow, and we didn't require our government to do their jobs and keep the playing fields level.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: racolvin
Originally posted by: Evan

This has nothing to do with me, I'm not saying anything that any other well informed average Joe with experience and education in these particular fields is saying. You're just going to have to realize on your own someday that you are, in fact, ill-informed in these discussions, because your sources, data, evidence, education, etc. are inadequate. To put it nicely, you're a layman. You may believe otherwise, but your "beliefs" aren't relevant, only what you can substantiate, deduce, reason, etc. You can't do any of it, and it's why informed people belittle and mock you. Get used to it.

Evan:

Something about this portion of your post bothers me enough to say something. Obviously I don't know you and I don't know your education, etc but from your statement here it sounds like you work in the financial sector, yes?

If that's a "yes" then this whole "you're a layman, you don't know squat, and you'll always be mocked for it" thing is a bit much isn't it? I mean, there's LOTS of us laymen out there who put our money in your hands to help us protect and grow in our investments. While we don't have your education or experience in the details that doesn't make us stupid. It does mean that you'll have to explain it to us in terms we understand but it also places a burden on you (not necessarily you personally of course, just the financial sector as a whole) to be stewards of our money and not do things that would place it at extraordinary risk without first making sure we are well informed of those risks.

If we laymen must find someone to blame for this mess I don't think the Federal Reserve is the sole culprit by a long shot. It was the financial sector as a whole that went wild with power over money that didn't belong to them with no oversight by regulators. Their own greed for bonuses and for profits that were manufactured out of thin air (leverage at 30:1+? holy crap) completely obscured their sense of risk management and custodianship for the layman's money that they were entrusted with via our 401ks, IRAs, etc, etc.

The Federal Reserves culpability in all this seems to be their total inability to allow the economy to experience its seemingly normal up/down cycles - you must allow people to fall down if they're ever going to learn from their mistakes. In trying to act as a dampening mechanism for the economy the Fed set up a situation where through monetary policy they would prevent the failing but allow the perpetual climb. In effect they almost guaranteed there would be a bubble or correction of epic proportions at some point in time.

The investment banks and other institutions that got creative in all these new financial instruments, many unregulated and not transparent to the investor, simply got greedy. They saw the potential for all this cash and forgot to take care of their customer. We've all seen the news stories and things about how the ratings agencies were coopted into providing falsely high ratings for shaky investment vehicles, making them look less risky than they were - that's pure greed, both on the part of the investment bank trying to pull a fast one over their investors and by the ratings agencies who would take fees (bribes?) to lie about the true risk of the investment.

The Government is culpable in two ways: lack of regulation of the financial sector (CDS's anyone?) and for excessive liberal policies in the housing sector that put people into mortgages/homes that truly couldn't afford them, in the name of "the American Dream".

Lastly in my little rant, we the laymen/consumers are culpable for believing that the gravy train would never end. We didn't save for a rainy day, we didn't question our financial advisers who led us astray, we didn't stop ourselves from spending like there was no tomorrow, and we didn't require our government to do their jobs and keep the playing fields level.

Racolvin, I don't think that Evan (or my) ire is directed at you as far as "laymen" go. Our ire is directed at people who do nothing more than spew forth assaults based upon YouTube videos or other such regurgitating spewage.

Your post is well thought out and reasoned, while I may disagree with some of it, it is far above par for people like BansheeX, bamacre, and PCSurgeon, who do nothing more than post non-thought one-liners or YOuTube links that don't include analysis or rational thought. Evan (and my) frustration is directed at the non-thinkers, not people like you.

You may not be an MBA or have your CFA charter, or work in finance, but your thoughts are more reasoned than what I see out of some of the former people. Kudos to you!!
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,399
4,457
136
Originally posted by: bamacre
:laugh:

I only posted this because I wanted to see if the usuals would stoop to bashing Forbes in order to defend the Fed. Mission Accomplished. :laugh:

Sure you did.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,399
4,457
136
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Evan
Btw, it's funny to see Forbes parroted by Schiff apologists, as he literally laughs at Schiff's notion that the U.S. can't control bond rates or inflation, or that we have anywhere near a good chance of defaulting. Schiff even claims in that video that there's a scenario where bond rates will hit 10%-20%, and uses the falsehood that we have a "negative savings rate" without mentioning that his definition of savings is arcane and poorly defined, much like his take on inflation which he claims is now on par with the 70's. Dude is seriously a riot, no wonder his apologists wimp out of their own threads. :laugh:

LOL, you completely missed my point, perhaps even intentionally. It's just obvious to many experts (except our resident ones :laugh:) , no matter their ideology or disagreements elsewhere, that the Fed was the primary cause of this mess. You particularly have finally moved from "no cause" to "some cause," and even LK has admitted "some" cause. You guys are learning, and I'm proud of both you. Don't be afraid though, it's ok to admit that your beloved Fed was the primary cause of this mess. Nothing wrong with accepting the truth, nothing to be ashamed of.

I do have to admit one thing though. I am starting to lose interest in you guys' posts. It's just the same stuff. LK will come out with his straw man personal attack, "libertopians," and you always end with saying "you'll wimp out" on the argument. Well, let me fill you in on something. Just because someone realizes, before you do, that there won't be any final say, some mutual agreement, or whatever, and that it's not worth any further effort, doesn't mean that someone is "wimping out." Just because you're the last one to post in a thread doesn't mean the teacher will come around and give you a gold star for winning. And when you get older you will hopefully learn that your saying stuff like this is just stroking your own little ego. And as well, when you get older, hopefully you'll learn that little ego of your's is really nothing but trouble, that it can only give you a false sense of self-esteem. What I mean is, your saying things like this may give you a feeling of superiority, but in reality, it only shows your real subconscious feelings of inferiority.

noone with credibility with this.

I never liked Peter Noone; always thought he was over-rated.

 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: racolvin
Originally posted by: Evan

This has nothing to do with me, I'm not saying anything that any other well informed average Joe with experience and education in these particular fields is saying. You're just going to have to realize on your own someday that you are, in fact, ill-informed in these discussions, because your sources, data, evidence, education, etc. are inadequate. To put it nicely, you're a layman. You may believe otherwise, but your "beliefs" aren't relevant, only what you can substantiate, deduce, reason, etc. You can't do any of it, and it's why informed people belittle and mock you. Get used to it.

Evan:

Something about this portion of your post bothers me enough to say something. Obviously I don't know you and I don't know your education, etc but from your statement here it sounds like you work in the financial sector, yes?

If that's a "yes" then this whole "you're a layman, you don't know squat, and you'll always be mocked for it" thing is a bit much isn't it? I mean, there's LOTS of us laymen out there who put our money in your hands to help us protect and grow in our investments. While we don't have your education or experience in the details that doesn't make us stupid. It does mean that you'll have to explain it to us in terms we understand but it also places a burden on you (not necessarily you personally of course, just the financial sector as a whole) to be stewards of our money and not do things that would place it at extraordinary risk without first making sure we are well informed of those risks.

If we laymen must find someone to blame for this mess I don't think the Federal Reserve is the sole culprit by a long shot. It was the financial sector as a whole that went wild with power over money that didn't belong to them with no oversight by regulators. Their own greed for bonuses and for profits that were manufactured out of thin air (leverage at 30:1+? holy crap) completely obscured their sense of risk management and custodianship for the layman's money that they were entrusted with via our 401ks, IRAs, etc, etc.

The Federal Reserves culpability in all this seems to be their total inability to allow the economy to experience its seemingly normal up/down cycles - you must allow people to fall down if they're ever going to learn from their mistakes. In trying to act as a dampening mechanism for the economy the Fed set up a situation where through monetary policy they would prevent the failing but allow the perpetual climb. In effect they almost guaranteed there would be a bubble or correction of epic proportions at some point in time.

The investment banks and other institutions that got creative in all these new financial instruments, many unregulated and not transparent to the investor, simply got greedy. They saw the potential for all this cash and forgot to take care of their customer. We've all seen the news stories and things about how the ratings agencies were coopted into providing falsely high ratings for shaky investment vehicles, making them look less risky than they were - that's pure greed, both on the part of the investment bank trying to pull a fast one over their investors and by the ratings agencies who would take fees (bribes?) to lie about the true risk of the investment.

The Government is culpable in two ways: lack of regulation of the financial sector (CDS's anyone?) and for excessive liberal policies in the housing sector that put people into mortgages/homes that truly couldn't afford them, in the name of "the American Dream".

Lastly in my little rant, we the laymen/consumers are culpable for believing that the gravy train would never end. We didn't save for a rainy day, we didn't question our financial advisers who led us astray, we didn't stop ourselves from spending like there was no tomorrow, and we didn't require our government to do their jobs and keep the playing fields level.

I should have said the resident Libertarians, since "laymans" can make very good contributions and posts obviously. Nothing wrong with being Libertarian, but for some reason it seems to attract the worst sort of posters here. Nothing wrong with being layman if you're not simultaneously claiming you know something 99% of economists and experts haven't been able to figure out. At that point you have to actually prove it, and of course as we've seen the OP fails miserably and will predictably leave this thread.

Also, as far as the Fed being to blame is concerned, the mere act of lowering and raising interest rates simply does not statistically have such a large effect that it would cause the collapse of the entire economy and a simultaneous deep recession single handily, simply not possible. The Fed is powerful but it can never hope to have such an extreme amount of influence. The Fed itself has substantial but certainly nowhere near all-encompassing power. People claiming it was the main cause of collapse flatter those working at the Fed, frankly. They'd really have to go out of their way to collapse the economy.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
The FED is supposed to influence markets. That's its function, to affect the economy.

Having said that Greenspan admits he made a few mistakes, but he, and most well-informed commentators, don't think he's the main culprit. Forbes is unwilling to admit that an unregulated market spiraled out of control and came close to committing suicide and mass murder. Forbes is a right wing, Chicago School of Economics, Libertarian. Why should we be surprised at his comments? In fact, HE's part of the problem.

-Robert
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
noone with credibility with this.

Are you saying that anyone who believes that the Fed was the primary cause of this mess has no credibility?

I think that anyone who's reasonable would agree that the Federal Reserve isn't the primary cause of our current troubles. They may have provided certain incentives for companies to engage in loose lending, but people at those companies still had to knowingly do shady things in order for it all to happen. The greed of those people is the primary cause of the mess.

You really have a good grip on what happened. Heres the problem. I have seen the lie for along time. I know how the REAL BANK WORKS. I understand the Beast well.

Yet knowing this I took advantage of the system 3 times . When I bought APPLE. When I shorted AMD . When I shorted NV. This was wrong of me. I won't go into details other than . Any one else can use same method. Just need to be on WEB.

But it is the FEDs fault. Printing more money than you have resources is dedt Banking . Debt is the only way this type of banking can thrieve. Not to say you can't make money threw Moral banking practices . As threw history its be proven to work , But the Debt bank stayed its course and won the day. The results of which were just seeing the beginning of.

THE Debt bank gains power threw over circulation of $$. Than when everthing is ready . THEY TIGHTEN. CALLING in notes. Removing currency from the system and steal real properity, in exchange of paper debt they created. Thats why any averge human knows in his heart . We all took part in this travisty. Some deny . Some follow blind to acadimea mischief. But By DEbt Bank putting out more currencey than we have. They invite ABUSE! They haven't done anything wrong . Except they undestand that Debt can never be repaid at a certain point . Where control threw ownership, that was contrived threw time by a handfull of men.

Its the same as Adam in eve in the guarden of eden . Adam could do anything he wanted to . Nothing was withheld from him. NOTHING but one thing. GOD commanded of Adam not to eat from Knowledge Tree.


But Adam did so, Adam did what he was told not to. BLame matters not Eve. Adam did what was wrong. But it was wrong only because God made it so.

TheDebt bank does the same exact thing to GET YOU! They over supply money . Seemingly making it look cheap . So Man sees all that unused unbacked money lieing there and starts stuffing their pockets.

That why we have so much debate argueing this and that . Because its as simple as I have laid it all. We all know that . WE all guilty. Some deny some BAIS what ever the reason for denial . The state were in is because of theft we all took part in . WE all know it to . Dening is only falling deeper into pit. GOd set trap for Adam . Debt bank sets trap for man. Its ABOUT Power. WHO HAS FINAL SAY in WHAT IS. Will be the Soever, he how rules without scales or balances.

 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
76
Wow that is quite the rambling post nemesis, even bringing up Adam and Eve. Anyways, I have one question, do you blame the fed more than the people abusing the fed's cheap money? I think the answer is fairly obvious and addresses the OP's childish claim.

 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
noone with credibility with this.

Are you saying that anyone who believes that the Fed was the primary cause of this mess has no credibility?

I think that anyone who's reasonable would agree that the Federal Reserve isn't the primary cause of our current troubles. They may have provided certain incentives for companies to engage in loose lending, but people at those companies still had to knowingly do shady things in order for it all to happen. The greed of those people is the primary cause of the mess.

how is babby formed

how girl get pragnent

They need to do way instain mother> who kill thier babies, becuse these baby can't frigth back? It was on the news this morning a mother in AR, who had kill her three kids. They are taking the three babby back to New York too a lady to rest. My pary are with the father who lost his chrilden ; i am truley sorry for your lots.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
I have big news for you guys. Ron Pal lost. Stop trying to spread this FUD. The primary cause for the disaster was Fanny and Freddie.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
412
136
Originally posted by: bamacre
Steve Forbes admits the Federal Reserve was the primary cause of the economic mess we are in.
This guy's fulla cr-p. Basically he's saying his mom baked a lot of pies for the church and put 'em on the window sill. He, and his friends from banks, wall street and whatnot all came 'round, stole the pies and ate 'em, and when the vickar found them and spanked them for stealing and eating the pies, he blames his mom for tempting him by baking them in the first place. Disgusting.

Typical greedy capitalist swine, projecting the blame every which way except his own.