bipartisanpwnage
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- Mar 26, 2009
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Originally posted by: bamacre
:laugh:
I only posted this because I wanted to see if the usuals would stoop to bashing Forbes in order to defend the Fed. Mission Accomplished. :laugh:
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
noone with credibility with this.
Are you saying that anyone who believes that the Fed was the primary cause of this mess has no credibility?
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
noone with credibility with this.
Are you saying that anyone who believes that the Fed was the primary cause of this mess has no credibility?
I think that anyone who's reasonable would agree that the Federal Reserve isn't the primary cause of our current troubles. They may have provided certain incentives for companies to engage in loose lending, but people at those companies still had to knowingly do shady things in order for it all to happen. The greed of those people is the primary cause of the mess.
Originally posted by: Evan
This has nothing to do with me, I'm not saying anything that any other well informed average Joe with experience and education in these particular fields is saying. You're just going to have to realize on your own someday that you are, in fact, ill-informed in these discussions, because your sources, data, evidence, education, etc. are inadequate. To put it nicely, you're a layman. You may believe otherwise, but your "beliefs" aren't relevant, only what you can substantiate, deduce, reason, etc. You can't do any of it, and it's why informed people belittle and mock you. Get used to it.
Originally posted by: racolvin
Originally posted by: Evan
This has nothing to do with me, I'm not saying anything that any other well informed average Joe with experience and education in these particular fields is saying. You're just going to have to realize on your own someday that you are, in fact, ill-informed in these discussions, because your sources, data, evidence, education, etc. are inadequate. To put it nicely, you're a layman. You may believe otherwise, but your "beliefs" aren't relevant, only what you can substantiate, deduce, reason, etc. You can't do any of it, and it's why informed people belittle and mock you. Get used to it.
Evan:
Something about this portion of your post bothers me enough to say something. Obviously I don't know you and I don't know your education, etc but from your statement here it sounds like you work in the financial sector, yes?
If that's a "yes" then this whole "you're a layman, you don't know squat, and you'll always be mocked for it" thing is a bit much isn't it? I mean, there's LOTS of us laymen out there who put our money in your hands to help us protect and grow in our investments. While we don't have your education or experience in the details that doesn't make us stupid. It does mean that you'll have to explain it to us in terms we understand but it also places a burden on you (not necessarily you personally of course, just the financial sector as a whole) to be stewards of our money and not do things that would place it at extraordinary risk without first making sure we are well informed of those risks.
If we laymen must find someone to blame for this mess I don't think the Federal Reserve is the sole culprit by a long shot. It was the financial sector as a whole that went wild with power over money that didn't belong to them with no oversight by regulators. Their own greed for bonuses and for profits that were manufactured out of thin air (leverage at 30:1+? holy crap) completely obscured their sense of risk management and custodianship for the layman's money that they were entrusted with via our 401ks, IRAs, etc, etc.
The Federal Reserves culpability in all this seems to be their total inability to allow the economy to experience its seemingly normal up/down cycles - you must allow people to fall down if they're ever going to learn from their mistakes. In trying to act as a dampening mechanism for the economy the Fed set up a situation where through monetary policy they would prevent the failing but allow the perpetual climb. In effect they almost guaranteed there would be a bubble or correction of epic proportions at some point in time.
The investment banks and other institutions that got creative in all these new financial instruments, many unregulated and not transparent to the investor, simply got greedy. They saw the potential for all this cash and forgot to take care of their customer. We've all seen the news stories and things about how the ratings agencies were coopted into providing falsely high ratings for shaky investment vehicles, making them look less risky than they were - that's pure greed, both on the part of the investment bank trying to pull a fast one over their investors and by the ratings agencies who would take fees (bribes?) to lie about the true risk of the investment.
The Government is culpable in two ways: lack of regulation of the financial sector (CDS's anyone?) and for excessive liberal policies in the housing sector that put people into mortgages/homes that truly couldn't afford them, in the name of "the American Dream".
Lastly in my little rant, we the laymen/consumers are culpable for believing that the gravy train would never end. We didn't save for a rainy day, we didn't question our financial advisers who led us astray, we didn't stop ourselves from spending like there was no tomorrow, and we didn't require our government to do their jobs and keep the playing fields level.
Originally posted by: bamacre
:laugh:
I only posted this because I wanted to see if the usuals would stoop to bashing Forbes in order to defend the Fed. Mission Accomplished. :laugh:
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Evan
Btw, it's funny to see Forbes parroted by Schiff apologists, as he literally laughs at Schiff's notion that the U.S. can't control bond rates or inflation, or that we have anywhere near a good chance of defaulting. Schiff even claims in that video that there's a scenario where bond rates will hit 10%-20%, and uses the falsehood that we have a "negative savings rate" without mentioning that his definition of savings is arcane and poorly defined, much like his take on inflation which he claims is now on par with the 70's. Dude is seriously a riot, no wonder his apologists wimp out of their own threads. :laugh:
LOL, you completely missed my point, perhaps even intentionally. It's just obvious to many experts (except our resident ones :laugh , no matter their ideology or disagreements elsewhere, that the Fed was the primary cause of this mess. You particularly have finally moved from "no cause" to "some cause," and even LK has admitted "some" cause. You guys are learning, and I'm proud of both you. Don't be afraid though, it's ok to admit that your beloved Fed was the primary cause of this mess. Nothing wrong with accepting the truth, nothing to be ashamed of.
I do have to admit one thing though. I am starting to lose interest in you guys' posts. It's just the same stuff. LK will come out with his straw man personal attack, "libertopians," and you always end with saying "you'll wimp out" on the argument. Well, let me fill you in on something. Just because someone realizes, before you do, that there won't be any final say, some mutual agreement, or whatever, and that it's not worth any further effort, doesn't mean that someone is "wimping out." Just because you're the last one to post in a thread doesn't mean the teacher will come around and give you a gold star for winning. And when you get older you will hopefully learn that your saying stuff like this is just stroking your own little ego. And as well, when you get older, hopefully you'll learn that little ego of your's is really nothing but trouble, that it can only give you a false sense of self-esteem. What I mean is, your saying things like this may give you a feeling of superiority, but in reality, it only shows your real subconscious feelings of inferiority.
noone with credibility with this.
Originally posted by: racolvin
Originally posted by: Evan
This has nothing to do with me, I'm not saying anything that any other well informed average Joe with experience and education in these particular fields is saying. You're just going to have to realize on your own someday that you are, in fact, ill-informed in these discussions, because your sources, data, evidence, education, etc. are inadequate. To put it nicely, you're a layman. You may believe otherwise, but your "beliefs" aren't relevant, only what you can substantiate, deduce, reason, etc. You can't do any of it, and it's why informed people belittle and mock you. Get used to it.
Evan:
Something about this portion of your post bothers me enough to say something. Obviously I don't know you and I don't know your education, etc but from your statement here it sounds like you work in the financial sector, yes?
If that's a "yes" then this whole "you're a layman, you don't know squat, and you'll always be mocked for it" thing is a bit much isn't it? I mean, there's LOTS of us laymen out there who put our money in your hands to help us protect and grow in our investments. While we don't have your education or experience in the details that doesn't make us stupid. It does mean that you'll have to explain it to us in terms we understand but it also places a burden on you (not necessarily you personally of course, just the financial sector as a whole) to be stewards of our money and not do things that would place it at extraordinary risk without first making sure we are well informed of those risks.
If we laymen must find someone to blame for this mess I don't think the Federal Reserve is the sole culprit by a long shot. It was the financial sector as a whole that went wild with power over money that didn't belong to them with no oversight by regulators. Their own greed for bonuses and for profits that were manufactured out of thin air (leverage at 30:1+? holy crap) completely obscured their sense of risk management and custodianship for the layman's money that they were entrusted with via our 401ks, IRAs, etc, etc.
The Federal Reserves culpability in all this seems to be their total inability to allow the economy to experience its seemingly normal up/down cycles - you must allow people to fall down if they're ever going to learn from their mistakes. In trying to act as a dampening mechanism for the economy the Fed set up a situation where through monetary policy they would prevent the failing but allow the perpetual climb. In effect they almost guaranteed there would be a bubble or correction of epic proportions at some point in time.
The investment banks and other institutions that got creative in all these new financial instruments, many unregulated and not transparent to the investor, simply got greedy. They saw the potential for all this cash and forgot to take care of their customer. We've all seen the news stories and things about how the ratings agencies were coopted into providing falsely high ratings for shaky investment vehicles, making them look less risky than they were - that's pure greed, both on the part of the investment bank trying to pull a fast one over their investors and by the ratings agencies who would take fees (bribes?) to lie about the true risk of the investment.
The Government is culpable in two ways: lack of regulation of the financial sector (CDS's anyone?) and for excessive liberal policies in the housing sector that put people into mortgages/homes that truly couldn't afford them, in the name of "the American Dream".
Lastly in my little rant, we the laymen/consumers are culpable for believing that the gravy train would never end. We didn't save for a rainy day, we didn't question our financial advisers who led us astray, we didn't stop ourselves from spending like there was no tomorrow, and we didn't require our government to do their jobs and keep the playing fields level.
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
noone with credibility with this.
Are you saying that anyone who believes that the Fed was the primary cause of this mess has no credibility?
I think that anyone who's reasonable would agree that the Federal Reserve isn't the primary cause of our current troubles. They may have provided certain incentives for companies to engage in loose lending, but people at those companies still had to knowingly do shady things in order for it all to happen. The greed of those people is the primary cause of the mess.
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
noone with credibility with this.
Are you saying that anyone who believes that the Fed was the primary cause of this mess has no credibility?
I think that anyone who's reasonable would agree that the Federal Reserve isn't the primary cause of our current troubles. They may have provided certain incentives for companies to engage in loose lending, but people at those companies still had to knowingly do shady things in order for it all to happen. The greed of those people is the primary cause of the mess.
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Originally posted by: Hacp
I have big news for you guys. Ron Pal lost.
This guy's fulla cr-p. Basically he's saying his mom baked a lot of pies for the church and put 'em on the window sill. He, and his friends from banks, wall street and whatnot all came 'round, stole the pies and ate 'em, and when the vickar found them and spanked them for stealing and eating the pies, he blames his mom for tempting him by baking them in the first place. Disgusting.Originally posted by: bamacre
Steve Forbes admits the Federal Reserve was the primary cause of the economic mess we are in.