Excellent Op-Ed piece on Obamacare and SCOTUS in Washington Post

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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The piece quoted below gets to the heart of the argument about why the insurance mandate at the core of Obamacare is necessary. And it shreds the arguments of those who pretend that allowing a mandate for the very special case - many would say the unique case - of the health insurance market would set a precedent that would apply to - for example - government-mandated broccoli purchases.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-case-for-obamacare/2012/04/06/gIQAqfgY0S_story.html

What makes health care different

As best as I can tell, the recent arguments at the Supreme Court did not touch on a critical part of the discussion about government’s role in health care: the broken market for private insurance. And I think I know why.

A key assumption underlying the arguments, questions and answers was that all uninsured people are uninsured by choice. Sure, some very ill people with preexisting conditions do not qualify. But the implication was clear: Most uninsured people either do not want to pay for insurance or cannot afford it. Justice Samuel Alito said, “You can get health insurance.” Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg made the point that people who don’t participate are making it more expensive for others, that their “free choice” affects others. The “free rider” problem is thoroughly examined.


It was as if the court forgot that the private insurance market does not function as a normal market. If you are not employed and you want to purchase insurance in the private market, you cannot unilaterally decide to do so. An insurer has to accept you as a customer. And quite often, they don’t. Insurers prefer group plans, with lots of people enrolled to spread the risk. Can you blame them? The individual consumer is a lot of work, is a higher risk and produces relatively little revenue.

The Government Accountability Office studied this problem last year and found a range of denial rates that vary by state and by insurer. On average, 19 percent of applications nationwide are denied. One-quarter of insurers denied more than 40 percent of the applications they considered. These denials are not limited to deadly illnesses but include many minor reasons. Expect to be denied if you have asthma, if you take just about any prescription medication, if you are more than 15 percent overweight. Expect to be denied if a doctor has recommended any procedure for you, no matter how insignificant. Basically, expect to be denied.

I’m astonished that this information was not laid out in oral argument and that no questions were asked about it. I believe that lawyers on both sides of this argument, and the justices hearing the case, have always been employed and always been covered by employer-provided health insurance. Perhaps it simply does not occur to them that if they were to try to purchase insurance, they might not be able to.

The justices repeatedly asked: If the government can require you to purchase insurance, what else could it require you to do? What are the limiting conditions to this breadth of control?

The government muffed its response. To me, the answer is obvious. There are two simple limiting conditions, both of which must be present: (1) it must be a service or product that everybody must have at some point in their lives and (2) the market for that service or product does not function, meaning that sellers turn away buyers. In other words, you need something, but you may not be able to buy it.

Let’s test the examples presented to the high court: Can the government force you to eat broccoli? This proposition fails on both counts. Nobody must eat broccoli during their lives, and the market for broccoli is normal. If you want broccoli, go buy it. Nothing stops you.

Can the government force you to join a health club? Again, double failure. You don’t need to join a health club. Maybe you should, but you don’t have to. And, if you want to join one, plenty of clubs would be happy to admit you. Indeed, can you imagine a health club turning people down because they are too fat, the way insurers turn people down because they are too sick?

How about burial services? While this example passes the first condition — it is a service that everybody will need — it fails the second. There is a clearly functioning market for burial services. If you want to purchase a burial or a cremation, no seller of those services will turn you away.

The health insurance market meets both criteria. Everybody will need health services at some point. And as long as the United States doesn’t provide national health care, the only reasonable method for most people to pay for those services is through insurance. But here, the market simply does not work. Sellers of health insurance turn away purchasers, and in great numbers.

Although the Affordable Care Act is huge and enormously complex, the point of the legislation is straightforward. It aims to fix the market for health insurance by prohibiting sellers of the service from declining buyers. Why did Congress not pass a simple law just requiring insurance companies to accept all applications? Because such a law would not repair the market and would probably make it worse. With only sick people seeking insurance — because healthy people would wait until they got sick, knowing that insurance was guaranteed — coverage would become overwhelmingly expensive and impossible for most Americans to afford.

The only answer is to expand the pool and spread the risk, which lets insurers have a rational business model. Short of government-provided health services or a government-sponsored national insurance plan, the Affordable Care Act is the next best shot at fixing this broken market.

It's clear to me that the unobtainability of health insurance by the growing fraction of the population who want it, but are denied is a direct consequence of our profit-based insurance model. Without a mandate - and without the creation of a government health insurance program that provides insurance to everyone who cannot obtain insurance from the private market (is this something you advocate, righties? - I thought not) - there's simply no way for the U.S. to ensure that those who want health insurance at an even remotely affordable price will be able to obtain it.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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Except that health insurance is not something anyone needs to buy.

Go into any grocery store with the cash to buy broccoli, and you will be sold broccoli. And if you don't have enough cash to buy broccoli you will be turned away.

Go into any health club with the cash to buy a health club membership, and you will be sold a health club membership. And if you don't have enough cash to buy a membership you will be turned away.

Go into any hospital with the cash to pay for their health care, and you will be sold their services.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
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Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg made the point that people who don’t participate are making it more expensive for others, that their “free choice” affects others.

I don't like this argument. Because it applies to everything. You are making food more expensive for others every time you don't donate to a local food bank. You are making vehicles more expensive for others every time you negotiate a good price for yourself. You are making home costs more expensive for others every time you are doing something other than volunteering your time to Habitat for Humanity.

Every glass of water I drink could make a glass of water for my neighbor a little more expensive.




Not to mention, people who are placed into insurance with pre-existing conditions are also making the insurance more expensive for others. Their choices affect others too.
 
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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
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Times are tough out there. People are out of work, struggling to pay bills as it is and they are now slapped with a must purchase insurance mandate or pay $5000 penalty. Companies that try to expand are now going to have one hell of an obstacle at the 50 employee mark that they have to provide healthcare. Combine all that with promising to raise taxes and implementing all kinds of new regulations and people wonder why the recovery is taking so long. Plenty of uncertaintly and who wants to invest when all that is going on? It isn’t rocket science.

The other problem is this. If the $5000 is a penalty it is unconstitutional. If it is a Tax than it is constitutional but we were promised our taxes would not go up.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Except that health insurance is not something anyone needs to buy.

Go into any grocery store with the cash to buy broccoli, and you will be sold broccoli. And if you don't have enough cash to buy broccoli you will be turned away.

Go into any health club with the cash to buy a health club membership, and you will be sold a health club membership. And if you don't have enough cash to buy a membership you will be turned away.

Go into any hospital with the cash to pay for their health care, and you will be sold their services.

Yeah because we know that everyone will have a lifetime of perfect health... :whiste:eek:_O
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
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This is stupid.

Insurance is profit based exactly because it has deal with and manage the cost of goods and services. Without profit and most importantly losses (which the OP does not mention because then it would derail his opinion) insurance companies would not be able to accurately gauge success over failure.

In addition instituting a government based insurance mandate would do nothing more then to sky-rocket the costs of all medical goods and services offered by hospitals and insurance companies for everyone because it would guarantee "profits" at the tax payer expense. Hence the cost of medical goods and services would go up because the reality of costs and the functionality of profits and most importantly losses will be completely removed from the equation that determines the price of goods and services in the medical industry.

Edit: The other side of the coin of a government mandate would be government artificially setting profits too low and it slowly in a unintended manner reduces the quality of health care available to those who are no wealthy enough to purchase their own services 1st rate quality health services.
 
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a777pilot

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Apr 26, 2011
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...and without the creation of a government health insurance program that provides insurance to everyone who cannot obtain insurance from the private market (is this something you advocate, righties? - I thought not)

Actually it is.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
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You can pay for your brain cancer surgery with 4 chickens and a loaf of pumpkin bread.

Or government can subsidize it and have the costs shoot through the roof because it is guaranteeing profits or the opposite face a slow decline of quality doctors entering that field of medicine because they are not willing to perform their skilled work for peanuts that the government is throwing at them.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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As an increasing numbers of private employers refuse to offer their employees heath insurance because its too expensive, its a simple fact that our existing health care model is unsustainable and we have no agreed way with a system to replace it.

As the USA is and remains the only modern industrialized country without socialized medicine.

In my mind, all you righty tighties have two choices, either support the compromise Obamacare plan, or expect fully socialized medicine to replace it. As it is hospitals are required to treat everyone and can't turn them away, and since the unemployed and very poor can't pay their inflated rates, they bill those costs to the fewer and fewer employers who offer health insurance.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
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Mandate or government health insurance. Pick one, America. Of course we already have government insurance, it's called Medicare and it works great. But that's only for old people, otherwise it's socialism and we can't have that. :(
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
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Mandate or government health insurance. Pick one, America. Of course we already have government insurance, it's called Medicare and it works great. But that's only for old people, otherwise it's socialism and we can't have that. :(

How about removing the role of government and actually allowing costs to be played out and dealt with by the system rather then masking it to push out idealist views that do not adhere to basic principles of economics and thus create unintended consequences, i.e. higher prices for goods and services or worse reduce quality and quantity of good and services.
 

Anarchist420

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Feb 13, 2010
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Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg made the point that people who don’t participate are making it more expensive for others, that their “free choice” affects others. The “free rider” problem is thoroughly examined
Ruth Bader Ginsburg is wrong. In addition... Ruth Bader Ginsburg is a totalitarian since she supports the government driving the prices of things up, but not the market (assuming she's correct even though she's wrong).
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Mandate or government health insurance. Pick one, America. Of course we already have government insurance, it's called Medicare and it works great. But that's only for old people, otherwise it's socialism and we can't have that. :(

Republicans already picked government health insurance over individual insurance responsibility. Just waiting for SCOTUS to make it official.
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
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If the government would just get out of the way we would again have the world's greatest health care system. Actually we still do, but it could be better.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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Except that health insurance is not something anyone needs to buy.

Go into any grocery store with the cash to buy broccoli, and you will be sold broccoli. And if you don't have enough cash to buy broccoli you will be turned away.

Go into any health club with the cash to buy a health club membership, and you will be sold a health club membership. And if you don't have enough cash to buy a membership you will be turned away.

Go into any hospital with the cash to pay for their health care, and you will be sold their services.

The fallacy in your statement and, I'm sure you know what it is, is if you go to the hospital you will receive treatment without paying.

So man up and admit your wrong and state what you really feel. That if someone can't pay for medical care they should be denied.

I mean if a few 10,000s of US citizens a year need to die from preventable causes so your health care costs will stay down and hospital/insurance profits stay up so be it. A few eggs need to be broken to maintain ideals, right?

Ebenezer Scrooge said it best, "Let them die and decrease the surplus population."
:rolleyes:
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
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How about removing the role of government and actually allowing costs to be played out and dealt with by the system rather then masking it to push out idealist views that do not adhere to basic principles of economics and thus create unintended consequences, i.e. higher prices for goods and services or worse reduce quality and quantity of good and services.

Because healthcare is a right... By law it's a right. If you need treatment, you get treatment. The issue is how it's paid for.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
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Because healthcare is a right... By law it's a right. If you need treatment, you get treatment. The issue is how it's paid for.

You are missing the point. Healthcare is already provided when a person visits an ER as you stated and it is indeed billed out. However attached to the costs of medical treatment are the hidden (sometimes not so hidden) costs of government's meddling in the over all system. Those costs are also part in parcel imposed on the price of private health insurance. Thus private sector health insurance companies must compensate and react with higher rates and restrictions whenever government acts in manner that attempts hide the true cost of medical goods and services. Private sector health insurance companies react in this manner because they must control their own costs unlike government who just digs the collective debt hole deeper and passes on the buck (not indefinitely however) to future generations.

Mandating health insurance will only have the effect of increasing the cost of medical goods and services across the board or worse degrading the quality and quantity of these services. In both outcomes government is not actually addressing the reasons behind the current high costs of health insurance and medical goods and services but instead government is reacting in a fashion that pushes out a political solution which does not address or account for the actual cost of doing business period.
 
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Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
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The piece quoted below gets to the heart of the argument about why the insurance mandate at the core of Obamacare is necessary. And it shreds the arguments of those who pretend that allowing a mandate for the very special case - many would say the unique case - of the health insurance market would set a precedent that would apply to - for example - government-mandated broccoli purchases.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-case-for-obamacare/2012/04/06/gIQAqfgY0S_story.html



It's clear to me that the unobtainability of health insurance by the growing fraction of the population who want it, but are denied is a direct consequence of our profit-based insurance model. Without a mandate - and without the creation of a government health insurance program that provides insurance to everyone who cannot obtain insurance from the private market (is this something you advocate, righties? - I thought not) - there's simply no way for the U.S. to ensure that those who want health insurance at an even remotely affordable price will be able to obtain it.

Obviously 1/5 people who want to buy broccoli are denied.

The questions and arguments made before the supreme court conservative justices were profoundly disturbing if for no other reason than they quite literally sound like they came straight from a talking points memo.

In all likelihood what will happen is that this law is struck down for political rather than legal reasons, the Republican party will offer nothing that will make a meaningful difference in saving/fixing the existing system, and in another decade or two we will just end up with single payer.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
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The premise of the original article is completely wrong because, as I've said multiple times, health insurance != health care.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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Except that health insurance is not something anyone needs to buy.
(...)
Go into any hospital with the cash to pay for their health care, and you will be sold their services.
But practically no one can afford to do that, including much of the upper middle class that are well into being part of, "the 1%." That problem, like our systemic unemployment, is ignored as often as possible. The fundamental problem that needs solving is that costs are, on average, too high. The rest of it has been a political catfight, or maybe a turf war.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
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Even if you accept the argument that the health insurance industry suffers from the market failures described by the author, that doesn't necessarily mean the government has the right under the US Constitution to correct them by making you buy insurance. The SC isn't a forum to debate microeconomics, it's a court of law.