Ex-Israel PM doesn't deny air strike on Syria

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P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
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So you want to look at the past 40 years and conviently ignore before then.

Thats an endless discussion Im not going in to. A complex history doesnt change the present reality where the Palestenians are supposed to negotiate a peace, as if you could negotiate a fair settlement with a criminal that is occupying your home, has you tied to a chair with a gun pressed against your head. "lets negotiate ownership of your house". All the while your house is slowly burning to the ground.

Thats not negotiations, thats extortion to try and legitimize theft. As I see it, there shouldnt be much to negotiate. Israel should abide by international law, withdraw behind the green line, dismantle all settlements and then the Palestinians can determine their own fate, create a state as they see fit. The only other acceptable solution is a truly democratic, non apartheid one state solution, assuming the Palestinians would want that.
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
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And you have other info regarding the IAEA and Syria in what happened for the first two years after the bombing?

If so, please enlighten us to what that information is?

I wasnt talking about Syria, but Iran. The quote that was replied to was " Iran is no nuclear threat, there is no way they can secretly build a bomb under the current inspection regime, they are by and large abiding by their promises and the treaties they signed (unlike for instance the US)."
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
26,361
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Really...

Probably the most open secret known to man. Just like where the virus came from.
 
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EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
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And you have other info regarding the IAEA and Syria in what happened for the first two years after the bombing?

If so, please enlighten us to what that information is?

I wasnt talking about Syria, but Iran. The quote that was replied to was " Iran is no nuclear threat, there is no way they can secretly build a bomb under the current inspection regime, they are by and large abiding by their promises and the treaties they signed (unlike for instance the US)."
My apology for this misunderstanding
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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So you want to look at the past 40 years and conviently ignore before then.

Thats an endless discussion Im not going in to. A complex history doesnt change the present reality where the Palestenians are supposed to negotiate a peace, as if you could negotiate a fair settlement with a criminal that is occupying your home, has you tied to a chair with a gun pressed against your head. "lets negotiate ownership of your house". All the while your house is slowly burning to the ground.

Thats not negotiations, thats extortion to try and legitimize theft. As I see it, there shouldnt be much to negotiate. Israel should abide by international law, withdraw behind the green line, dismantle all settlements and then the Palestinians can determine their own fate, create a state as they see fit. The only other acceptable solution is a truly democratic, non apartheid one state solution, assuming the Palestinians would want that.

You either start with a clean slate or a dirty slate.

Wiping the slate half clean wil not accomplish anything.

The international borders of '67 are a line in the sand to appease the Arab ego and before the "fairness" pendulm swung the other way. Ask why they do not want the orginal '48 borders which is what the UN authorized?
 

EagleKeeper

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Oct 30, 2000
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We can continue this discussion in a Israel Palestinian thread when LL or JediYoda start up a new one. The same will happen, there is just a new Pal supporter in house.

This thread was about Israel and the Syrian reactor.

Syria complains loudly but refused to follow up allowing the UN inspectors into the area for a couple of years to prove their innocence.

All this thread is that Bush is confirming what was prviously stated/ the US would not do anything, so Israel did the dee and no one complained afterwards bcause the guilty did not want to be exposed.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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We can continue this discussion in a Israel Palestinian thread when LL or JediYoda start up a new one. The same will happen, there is just a new Pal supporter in house.

This thread was about Israel and the Syrian reactor.

Syria complains loudly but refused to follow up allowing the UN inspectors into the area for a couple of years to prove their innocence.

All this thread is that Bush is confirming what was prviously stated/ the US would not do anything, so Israel did the dee and no one complained afterwards bcause the guilty did not want to be exposed.

Exactly!! Thats the bottom line!!
yet we have other like Lemon who was not their, has no knowledge of what happenned.
Lemon has posted no links that 100&#37; support his suppositions.....

So whats ther big deal?

Lemon is calling the people who were involved in this liars?? Why because they happenned to have first hand knowledge?
Lemon`s knowledge takes place when he is on a mushroom high....
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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I wasnt talking about Syria, but Iran. The quote that was replied to was " Iran is no nuclear threat, there is no way they can secretly build a bomb under the current inspection regime, they are by and large abiding by their promises and the treaties they signed (unlike for instance the US)."
-- you are as nieve as they come..until one day you wake up and everywhere you look is glass.....
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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I handed P4man his ass in a hand basket in post # 10
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=30824916&postcount=10
...of course he won`t respond...he can`t.......when you own somebodsy as bad as i did they usually put therer tail between their legs and ignore you......

The only thing lemon and P4 and I agree on is that what Israel did was an act of war....

To which those of us who know and understand what israel really di respnd with a -- WHO CARES!!!!
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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I have to really really wonder about JediYoda's grip on realty if he thinks, "The only thing lemon and P4 and I agree on is that what Israel did was an act of war...." Or if he thinks that anyone but his own miniscule mind cares about his assertion that, "I handed P4man his ass in a hand basket in post # 10"

The point is and remains, the larger world may not care much about the plight of the Palestinian people or waste a millisecond second of love or sympathy for Israel.

But every Country in the oil consuming world has a huge huge stake in the stability of the mid-east, and you JediYoda have to be a total idiot if you think its good for Israel when the rest of the world increasingly sees Israel as the rascals committing multiple acts of wars and destabilizing the entire mid-east.

Although it would never ever occur to you, its not rocket science to predict the rest of the world, in the interests of mid-east stability, will soon have to muzzle the pit bull that is Israel.

Israel is no longer anything remotely resembling a force for mid-east stability, its become the root of the mid-east stability problems. Four major war provoking acts in the last decade alone on the part of Israel, all of which have stained Israel with the good housekeeping seal of dishonor.
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
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-- you are as nieve as they come..until one day you wake up and everywhere you look is glass.....

Ive heard that so often in the run up to the iraq war. At least back then, it was from people who actually knew how to spell 'naive'.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
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I'm once again amused by how the same people who'd probably cheer at reducing the US nuclear stockpile, whine about Israel denying a country that is hostile to the US the possibility of developing nuclear weapons.
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
254
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I'm once again amused by how the same people who'd probably cheer at reducing the US nuclear stockpile, whine about Israel denying a country that is hostile to the US the possibility of developing nuclear weapons.
I have you a few questions for you;
1) How do you define a country hostile to the US, what makes them hostile? Does that include countries like Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? Iraq?

2) If renegade bombing of a suspected nuclear installation is okay to 'prevent them from obtaining nukes', then why not bomb known nuclear (research and civilian power) reactors as well? Why not bomb universities where they teach nuclear physics to prevent them from obtaining the knowledge to build a bomb? where do you draw the line, might as well bomb colleges and kindergartens too, while you're at it, dont let them have the knowledge of math, it could be used for nukes. (And at least that would ensure no discussion on point 1, those countries will definitely be hostile).

3) Do you think its a good idea to allow certain countries in the region to have nukes, while denying others to even research it for civilian use? Or could you imagine this inbalance actually creates an incentive for those other countries to reestablish that balance? IOW, are you in favor of a nuclear bomb free middle east, or not?
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
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I have you a few questions for you;
1) How do you define a country hostile to the US, what makes them hostile? Does that include countries like Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? Iraq?

A country that actively supports, arms and harbors Hizballah and Hamas, arms Iraqi insurgents and cooperates with North Korea and Iran on proliferation and nuclear facilities can not be considered anything else but hostile. In fact, Syria is more actively hostile towards US and its interests than North Korea by an order of magnitude.

2) If renegade bombing of a suspected nuclear installation is okay to 'prevent them from obtaining nukes', then why not bomb known nuclear (research and civilian power) reactors as well? Why not bomb universities where they teach nuclear physics to prevent them from obtaining the knowledge to build a bomb? where do you draw the line, might as well bomb colleges and kindergartens too, while you're at it, dont let them have the knowledge of math, it could be used for nukes. (And at least that would ensure no discussion on point 1, those countries will definitely be hostile).

An intelligent person could draw the line somewhere. Some might urge to bomb civilian nuclear facilities as well, but no intelligent person would claim universities and kindergartens should be bombed other than for provoking the other side of the discussion. Nevertheless, history is full with examples of assassinations of specific academic figures when their research or field of knowledge contributed to military plans.

3) Do you think its a good idea to allow certain countries in the region to have nukes, while denying others to even research it for civilian use? Or could you imagine this inbalance actually creates an incentive for those other countries to reestablish that balance? IOW, are you in favor of a nuclear bomb free middle east, or not?

I'm in favor of whatever helps the West to keep the current world order, because it benefits me and my preferred way of living. Obviously, if you think oppressive regimes such as the Syrian and Iranian ones are the future of mankind, you'd favor them to have nukes. I don't.

As for the situation in the middle east; I'd very much like to see a nukes free middle east, but that has to come with some other measure to assure the continued existence and wellbeing of Israel. Unfortunately, as the 20th century is full with examples of Muslim states ganging up on Israel, at a fraction of their combined size and power, nuclear deterrence is the only option. If you have any other mechanism other than WMDs to protect a country of 7 millions against over 1 billion aggressors, then by all means propose it. Until then, that's the only viable solution.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Ive heard that so often in the run up to the iraq war. At least back then, it was from people who actually knew how to spell 'naive'.

That`s the best you can do to refute my post owning you and your naive outlook??
I never claimed to be 100&#37; proficient in the english language.

If you would like to speal Polish...
perhaps Russian....
perhaps Hebrew....
perhaps German....
perhaps Arabic...
I understand quite a few more languages...
Considering english is definately not my native language, I thin k I do pretty well!!
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
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A country that actively supports, arms and harbors Hizballah and Hamas, arms Iraqi insurgents and cooperates with North Korea and Iran on proliferation and nuclear facilities can not be considered anything else but hostile.

Hostile to the US, Israel, or just "hostile"?

You know, actively arming, supporting and harboring various armed resistance movements is not exactly something foreign to the US policy in the past or present. I assume I dont need to list any examples here.

Cooperating on nuclear matters with Iran and other countries that signed the NPT is not proliferation of nuclear arms. Under the NPT that is perfectly allowed and regulated. Not that Im saying Syria may not have breached any treaties, but the simple fact they cooperate with Iran is no breach. Nor was cooperating with North Korea when they were still in the NPT. Didnt the US even help them build a reactor?

What actually isnt allowed under the NPT is facilitating proliferation to countries that have not signed the NPT. Like India. Canadian reactors and US supplied uranium and technology caused the real nuclear profliferation in India (and in all likelyhood, Israel, although that was just as likely before the NPT treaty). Likewise Israel is guilty of proliferating nuclear weapon technology to that other former nuclear armed apartheid regime.

So it would appear your definition of hostile is completely dependent on which' country or region you take as vantage point. If therefore you find it acceptable to just forget about international law and bomb such countries, you should find it equally acceptable those countries bomb yours when they suspect you are doing something they dont like.

An intelligent person could draw the line somewhere. Some might urge to bomb civilian nuclear facilities as well,
Yes, and some might argue you dont bomb anything or anyone at all, unless all other means have been exhausted and the act of war is approved by the UN. Especially since in these matters there is never any urgency. You cant construct those building, acquire the materials and build a bomb over night. It takes years at the very least.

history is full with examples of assassinations of specific academic figures when their research or field of knowledge contributed to military plans.
History is full of warcrimes. That doesnt mean one should condone it.

I'm in favor of whatever helps the West to keep the current world order, because it benefits me and my preferred way of living.
At least that is honest. The problem is that the current world order does not benefit hundreds of millions of people who actually own much of the natural resources that enables your preferred way of living (Im assuming you are American). For some reason they do not like your invading of sovereign countries to control the oil supply, nor the overthrowing of (democratic) regimes like once in Iran, and replacing it with a cruel dictatorship, or the supporting and arming of equally cruel dictatorships in Saudi Arabia, or the endless support for aggressive, oppressive colonial apartheid regimes in the region. There is going to be a backlash.

If you feel you are entitled to go to war and bomb at will to maintain this status quo, you should expect other people will do the same to try and change it. Thats not the only way you know; the US didnt become the greatest nation by using force. It became it by largely minding its own business. Its only since WW2 that it turned in to a military empire and now you seem to think the only way to keep your way of living is by oppressing the rest of the world. What a shame. Especially since its very likely to result in the end of your way of living. Like all great military empires that proceeded yours, its not military defeat that will end your reign, its bankruptcy. You are spending $12 million per HOUR to try and control a few cavemen in afghanistan alone, and failing even that I might add, I would urge you to think of a different approach.

Obviously, if you think oppressive regimes such as the Syrian and Iranian ones are the future of mankind, you'd favor them to have nukes. I don't.
Id say its up to the syrians and iranians to decide on the regimes they live under.

As for the situation in the middle east; I'd very much like to see a nukes free middle east, but that has to come with some other measure to assure the continued existence and wellbeing of Israel.
Why are you only worried about the well being of Israel, and not say, the equally large Palestinian people?

Unfortunately, as the 20th century is full with examples of Muslim states ganging up on Israel
The 21st century is full of examples of Israel banging up its neighbors.

, at a fraction of their combined size and power, nuclear deterrence is the only option. If you have any other mechanism other than WMDs to protect a country of 7 millions against over 1 billion aggressors, then by all means propose it. Until then, that's the only viable solution.
Its interesting how the South African regime used the exact same arguments to defend its nuclear status. How they where a small island of civilization surrounded by a sea of terrorists and terrorist nations. Yet that very terrorist ANC with terrorist leaders like Nelson Mandela have ruled the country for the past 20 years, dismantled their nukes and they havent massacred their white oppressors nor invaded any neighbours.

BTW, Id be careful who I'd call aggressor, but by your logic, we should arm the Palestinians and Lebanese with nukes. How else can you protect them from Israeli aggression?
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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My friend SamurAchzar -- p4man believes the IAEA has power to oversee and enforce treatys and such.
His answer to your question concerning peace in the middle east would be to get the UN involved...lol

Yet he has no answers for any of my rebuttal to his meaningless diatribe in post #10 --http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=30824916&postcount=10

Hope you had a nice thanksgiving!!
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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Has Israel threatened any country with nukes?

Has Isreal attacked the Palestinians or Lebanon without prior immediate provocation?

That is where the hostility and agression come from
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
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Hostile to the US, Israel, or just "hostile"?

You know, actively arming, supporting and harboring various armed resistance movements is not exactly something foreign to the US policy in the past or present. I assume I dont need to list any examples here.

Both Hizballah and Hamas are recognized terrorist organizations in the eyes of the US congress who outlawed both. Hizballah is responsible for the bombing of the Marines barracks in Beirut. Syria supports both organizations, as well as Iraqi insurgents.

So it would appear your definition of hostile is completely dependent on which' country or region you take as vantage point.

Of course it is. I made it very clear by stating that as someone who cherishes the liberties and prosperity given to me by the Western way of living, I consider anyone who conspires to take it away from me as hostile. That especially pertains to Muslim despots. You can take the other side and say US is hostile, I have no issue with that.

If therefore you find it acceptable to just forget about international law and bomb such countries, you should find it equally acceptable those countries bomb yours when they suspect you are doing something they dont like.

I have no problem with that, that's why the US tax payer funds the world's greatest army, just so US citizens aren't dependent on the international law and UN to protect their well being. International laws served very little practical purposes over the last few decades, other than perhaps trying some African and Serbian figures.

Yes, and some might argue you dont bomb anything or anyone at all, unless all other means have been exhausted and the act of war is approved by the UN. Especially since in these matters there is never any urgency. You cant construct those building, acquire the materials and build a bomb over night. It takes years at the very least.

I don't think the moral high ground passes through the UN. A country elected leadership has no commitment other than to its citizens. What the UN approves or does not approve is meaningless, and that is ten times as true when you deal with asymmetric warfare and clandestine programs.

History is full of warcrimes. That doesnt mean one should condone it.

Vantage point again; for me, the war crime would be letting Saddam gain nuclear weapons in 1981 or Syria in 2007, and not the prevention of these attempts by focused airstrikes that caused very little causalities. Another war crime is allowing the North Korean regime to oppress and torture its civilians while developing nuclear weapons to extort the South. Lets see someone passing a UN resolution to stop that.

At least that is honest. The problem is that the current world order does not benefit hundreds of millions of people who actually own much of the natural resources that enables your preferred way of living (Im assuming you are American).

I am not.

For some reason they do not like your invading of sovereign countries to control the oil supply, nor the overthrowing of (democratic) regimes like once in Iran, and replacing it with a cruel dictatorship, or the supporting and arming of equally cruel dictatorships in Saudi Arabia, or the endless support for aggressive, oppressive colonial apartheid regimes in the region. There is going to a backlash.

If it's me or "them", whoever they are, my choice is very simple. I am not ashamed of that. Now, denying the Muslim sphere of influence is a very worthy goal.

If you feel you are entitled to go to war and bomb at will to maintain this status quo, you should expect other people will do the same to try and change it. Thats not the only way you know; the US didnt become the greatest nation by using force. It became it by minding its own business.

What does the US have to do with it? Both bombings (Iraq and Syria) were done by Israel.

Id say its up the syrians and iranians to decide on the regimes they live under.

Why are you only worried about the well being of Israel, and not say, the equally large Palestinian people?

The 21st century is full of examples of Israel banging up its neighbors.

If you look closely at Gaza, you'd see that religious, totalitarian control of the people is not good even for the Palestinians. Furthermore, I can't see how a Syrian nuclear program will help the Palestinians one bit.

Its interesting how the South African regime used the exact same arguments to defend its nuclear status. How they where a small island of civilization surrounded by a sea of terrorists and terrorist nations. Yet that very terrorist ANC has ruled the country for the past 20 years, dismantled their nukes and hasnt massacred their white oppressors nor invaded any neighbours.

No one attacked South Africa, while Israel has been under constant mortal threat 20 years BEFORE it's inception. You can read about the conflict history here.

BTW, Id be careful who I'd call aggressor, but by your logic, we should arm the Palestinians and Lebanese with nukes. How else can you protect them from Israeli aggression?

At the same time, you could issue nukes to Bin Laden to protect him from US aggression, I guess. The ideological distance between Al Qaeda and the Palestinians is much smaller than you'd think.
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
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Has Israel threatened any country with nukes?

Whats that got to do with anything? It is constantly threatening to attack other countries, on a daily basis. Not only threatening, actually regularly doing it too.

As for threatening with nukes, that the whole bloody point of having them. Its a constant threat, wether spoken or not, there is the implicit threat of having them. That is the deterrence, is it not? Besides, go read the "samson option" if you think thats where it ends.

Has Isreal attacked the Palestinians or Lebanon without prior immediate provocation?

You have to be kidding me. Who is provoking who? If you honestly believe Israel is only reacting to events and not the other way around, blattantly ignoring the basic premise of the situation, the 40 year occupation, oppression and theft of land, then I cant help you. If you think the kidnapping and bombing of hamas leaders or random civilians is always a reaction and the launching of rockets the action, the buldozering of homes a reaction and the the rock throwing the cause, well.. I dont think discussing this much further will prove fruitful.
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
254
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Vantage point again; for me, the war crime would be letting Saddam gain nuclear weapons in 1981 or Syria in 2007

I dont remember his name, but that defected iraqi nuclear scientist that the US so relied on to make their case for war against iraq, claimed that iraq had no nuclear weapons program in 1981 and the reactor that was bombed by israel was completely unsuitable for military use ( a claim confirmed by most specialists, including the french engineers that designed it).

Now the interesting part, his claim is that only after the attack, saddam decided he needed nukes as deterrent and began a nuclear weapon program. If that is true (and Ill grant the guy is pathological liar, but his claims where used to warrant the iraq war and substantiate the WMD claims), then who committed the war crime (not too mention, the crime of war)?

That said, Im not going to reply to every other paragraph, but Ill commend you for being honest about being a military imperialist and not claiming anything else or hiding behind "spreading democracy/fighting terrorism" style hypocrisy. But Im thoroughly convinced your way wont work, and you will lose most of what it is you think you are fighting to defend. By fighting for its interests with very little consideration for those of others, the US and its allies are sewing more hatred than they can ever hope to conquer manu militari. Let alone fund the attempts.

No one attacked South Africa, while Israel has been under constant mortal threat 20 years BEFORE it's inception. You can read about the conflict history here.

The land where is now Israel has existed for millions of years and will continue to exist along with most of its inhabitants, so lets be clear that we are talking about a regime that is under threat here, just like the SA regime was.

BTW, the ANC was also a recognized terrorist organization, its leader being Nelson Mandela who is still on the US terrorist watchlist. Any resistance movement in history has been called that by the regime that was being resisted, and called freedom fighters by the other side. From the Romans to the Nazi's. From Joan of Arc to the PLO. And somewhere inbetween those American revolutionists called Patriots.

Hezbollah and Hamas are no exceptions to that.

The ideological distance between Al Qaeda and the Palestinians is much smaller than you'd think.

With every settlement built on the west bank, every demolished home, every killed or maimed Palestinian child, that distance will only shrink further.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
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You have to be kidding me. Who is provoking who? If you honestly believe Israel is only reacting to events and not the other way around, blattantly ignoring the basic premise of the situation, the 40 year occupation, oppression and theft of land, then I cant help you. If you think the kidnapping and bombing of hamas leaders or random civilians is always a reaction and the launching of rockets the action, the buldozering of homes a reaction and the the rock throwing the cause, well.. I dont think discussing this much further will prove fruitful.

you have come late in this discussion.

people arent going to repeat facts specifically for you. History has shown that the palestinains were the agressors. this goes back into the late 1800s.

go check your history on the haganah please
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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[quot]Originally Posted by P4man
Hostile to the US, Israel, or just "hostile"? [/quote]

P4man you cannot be that ignorant about the middle east.......

You do understand that Hamas as the elected government for the 'Palestinian" people mentions Israel in their own charter????

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."


http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm -- this and other sites...

So after reading this....you can come to no other conclusion -- the hostility that hamas has towards Israel is not just hostility, it is a hostility named in the charter and directed at ONLY Israel.
 

P4man

Senior member
Aug 27, 2010
254
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P4man you cannot be that ignorant about the middle east.......

Oh I could. Most people here are. But Im not.

First let me say Im not a Hamas spokesman, and not here to defend anything they say or do. I dont feel any such urge, because I dont. Neither support it nor defend it all. But at least I can understand where the hatred comes from that drives people to Hamas and other organizations, and I understand two wrongs dont make a right.

Even if Hamas were as bad as Al Queda, it wouldnt excuse Israel for war crimes, violating the Geneva convention for decades or collective punishment against millions of civilians. If you want to name Hamas a terrorist organisation, and Israeli government a democratic regime, then you wouldnt hold them to the same standards, or what would be the difference between a government and a terrorist group?

You do understand that Hamas as the elected government for the 'Palestinian" people mentions Israel in their own charter????
Yeah. Hamas are (among many other things), a resistance movement after all. Kind of makes sense to state what you resist. There was no Hamas before there was an occupation. As for those statements, lets have a look
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
If you interprete "Israel" as the current ethno-religious racist apartheid regime that rules most of the land once known as Palestine, and thats how most do (its not like they would want destroy their own sacred lands) then that doesnt sound so terribly evil. Why is it worse for Hamas to want another regime in Israel as for Israel to want another regime in Palestine? Or the US to want another regime in Iran or North Korea? At least Hamas wants it for the lands they have some legitimate claim on, certainly more than the US has on Persia.

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
That sounds an awful lot like what Jewish settlers and even the government will give you as justification for the westbank settlements. Let me quote the spokesman for Yitzhar "We, as Jews, believe that the land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel because a divine promise was given to us. The Bible is our legal document".

Or this one The national being of any people, particularly the Jewish people, is like a body, you cannot give up parts of your body. [..] Any Israeli withdrawal from occupied land would be like severing a limb from his body.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE68P1C920100926

I obviously dont condone either POV, but one noteworthy difference is that the hamas charter is just words, the settlements are very real.

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
You know, until there is a real change in policy and public opinion in both Israel and the western world, they are, unfortunately, most likely correct there. It has been nothing but a waste of time. After 40 years of talks and agreements and not a single real step forward has been realized only steps backward.

Ever since the end of the second intifada, what exactly have the Palestenians obtained by stopping armed resistance and negotiating instead? They've only lost more land and more houses and more people and no durable solution is in sight. As much as I hate violence, I can quite understand why they would once more give up on a peaceful protest and start a new intifada. I know I would if I were a Palestenian living in a prison called Gaza all my life and enduring what so many there do. Id almost certainly take up arms myself at some point.

Which btw, is a right under the Geneva convention. You may resist foreign occupation and colonial domination with use of force. Not that Israel has any regards for the geneva convention.

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
Well, what can I say? Israel's present conduct isnt exactly disproving the above is it?

So after reading this....you can come to no other conclusion -- the hostility that hamas has towards Israel is not just hostility, it is a hostility named in the charter and directed at ONLY Israel.
Yeah. Indeed. Your point?
BTW, have you ever read the IRA charter? Thats hasnt prevented negotiations and ultimately a peaceful settlement with them. Let me quote a British MP:
Hamas has that written into its charter but then again ... the IRA's charter was the driving out of the British jurisdiction from the island of Ireland. If you started by saying 'Until you withdraw from that there is no dialogue' we would never have got anywhere in Northern Ireland ...

If you're going to get a two-state solution with a viable, autonomous Palestine there is no way that that Palestinian state can be created without some involvement by Hamas - they are a significant part of the political structure of Palestine. You can't exclude them, you can't say you're going to do it without them, because you're not going to get there ...

One of the sadnesses of history - I've seen it so many times, including to an extent ourselves in Northern Ireland - is where you say 'I'm not going to talk to these people because they're terrorists'. We did it in our own history in Cyprus, we did it in Kenya. Eventually you do talk to them, eventually they become part of the political solution and you look back and say: 'Why didn't we start talking to them earlier?'
Thats pretty much how I feel about it.
 
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