Evolution Case Opens in Georgia Court

[conjur]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...re_us/evolution_debate

ATLANTA - A warning sticker in suburban Atlanta science textbooks that says evolution is "a theory, not a fact" was challenged in court Monday as an unlawful promotion of religion.

The disclaimer was adopted by Cobb County school officials in 2002 after hundreds of parents signed a petition criticizing the textbooks for treating evolution as fact without discussing alternate theories, including creationism.

"The religious views of some that contradict science cannot dictate curriculum," American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) attorney Maggie Garrett argued Monday before U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper. The trial is expected to last several days.

But a lawyer for Cobb County schools, Linwood Gunn, held up a copy of a textbook's table of contents Monday that showed dozens of pages about evolution.

"The sticker doesn't exist independently of the 101 pages about evolution," Gunn said. "This case is not about a sticker which has 33 words on it. ... It's about textbooks that say a lot more than that."

The stickers read: "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."

One of the parents who filed the lawsuit, Jeffrey Selman, said the stickers discredit the science of evolution.

"It's like saying everything that follows this sticker isn't true," he said.

The U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) ruled in 1987 that creationism was a religious belief that could not be taught in public schools along with evolution.

Gunn said he expects the warning will hold up in court, saying it "provides a unique opportunity for critical thinking."

"It doesn't say anything about faith," Gunn said. "It doesn't say anything about religion."

I can't wait for my new bumper stickers to come in:

Keep Your Religion Out Of My Government

There Is No GOD in Government

 

[KK]

I wonder if they'd be up in arms if the schools said the bible was fiction.

 

[Gunslinger08]

That's pretty dumb. Since when has stating the truth been considered illegal/unconstitutional? Evolution IS a theory.. it can not be proven fully. Evolution of humans and apes from a common ancestor is even more theoretical.

 

[Chadder007]

I see it both ways though.....Forcing Creationists to believe in Evolution or even learn it, though they don't believe in it.

Keep Government/Science out of Religion


Oh and Evolution is just a Theory. This is just a show of scientists hatred and bigotry of religious believers.

 

[f95toli]

The problem is that everything is science is, by definition, theory. It is impossible to prove a scientic theory, you can show that it is false but never that it is true.

So in that case we should put stickers everywhere, "Ohms law is a theory, not a fact"

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
That's pretty dumb. Since when has stating the truth been considered illegal/unconstitutional? Evolution IS a theory.. it can not be proven fully. Evolution of humans and apes from a common ancestor is even more theoretical.

Yes evolution is a theory, but a theory can be a fact aswell, and evolution is a fact, we all know that.

And KK, why would they be that?

 

[UglyCasanova]

Originally posted by: Chadder007
I see it both ways though.....Forcing Creationists to believe in Evolution or even learn it, though they don't believe in it.

Keep Government/Science out of Religion


Oh and Evolution is just a Theory. This is just a show of scientists hatred and bigotry of religious believers.

So is gravity, but I don't really think we will be seeing any warning labels in physics books any time soon (at least I hope not).

 

[Moonbeam]

Gravity is a theory and it's just a pity Christian fundamentalists don't find it contested in the Bible. Then we could get them to walk off the tops of tall buildings as a test of faith.

The theory of evolution is a theory. Evolution, the fact that life evolved, is a fact as real as gravity.

There are a whole class of fools that believe that if evolution is a fact then the Bible is wrong, that their is no God and that death is eternal. Because of cowards that lack faith we have to drag their backward asses along with evolving humanity into the future. This is a classic case of how morons retard society.

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: Forsythe

And KK, why would they be that?

The "they" I was talking about were the ones applying the warning labels.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: KK

Originally posted by: Forsythe

And KK, why would they be that?

The "they" I was talking about were the ones applying the warning labels.

Considering the Bible *is* largely fiction, what's the problem with that?

Anyway, it's a diversion. Our schools do not teach the Bible. That's for parochial schools or Sunday Schools.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: joshsquall
That's pretty dumb. Since when has stating the truth been considered illegal/unconstitutional? Evolution IS a theory.. it can not be proven fully. Evolution of humans and apes from a common ancestor is even more theoretical.

Yes evolution is a theory, but a theory can be a fact aswell, and evolution is a fact, we all know that.

And KK, why would they be that?

While this is a silly case, how can a theory be a fact? A theory is NOT a fact.

 

[cquark]

Evolution is a fact. It is the observed change in allele frequencies over time.

Natural selection, sexual selection, and so forth are theories that explain evolution.

Theories do not become facts over time; theories are explanations of facts. Science can never prove a theory fully. It can only disprove theories, such as the disproven theory of Lamarckian selection.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Mill
While this is a silly case, how can a theory be a fact? A theory is NOT a fact.

When someone says "gravity," they may either be referring to the observed fact of gravity or they may also be referring to one of the theories of gravity, such as geometrodynamics or Newtonian gravitation. It's an unclear but common usage of scientific terms like gravity and evolution, which is often used to argue that a scientific fact like gravity isn't a fact but rather a theory, using the common vernacular definition of theory as something one is unsure of instead of using the scientific definition of theory as our best explanation of facts.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: joshsquall
That's pretty dumb. Since when has stating the truth been considered illegal/unconstitutional? Evolution IS a theory.. it can not be proven fully. Evolution of humans and apes from a common ancestor is even more theoretical.

Yes evolution is a theory, but a theory can be a fact aswell, and evolution is a fact, we all know that.

And KK, why would they be that?

While this is a silly case, how can a theory be a fact? A theory is NOT a fact.

Evolution is a fact, though. It's the description of various scenarios as to how evolution works that is theory. Are we going to see stickers on physics books decrying the theories of relativity or gravity?

 

[cmdavid]

"This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."

thats what the sticker says.. can anybody argue against that?
Gunn summed it up best,

"It doesn't say anything about faith," Gunn said. "It doesn't say anything about religion."

 

[cmdavid]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: joshsquall
That's pretty dumb. Since when has stating the truth been considered illegal/unconstitutional? Evolution IS a theory.. it can not be proven fully. Evolution of humans and apes from a common ancestor is even more theoretical.

Yes evolution is a theory, but a theory can be a fact aswell, and evolution is a fact, we all know that.

And KK, why would they be that?

While this is a silly case, how can a theory be a fact? A theory is NOT a fact.

Evolution is a fact, though. It's the description of various scenarios as to how evolution works that is theory. Are we going to see stickers on physics books decrying the theories of relativity or gravity?

it's not a fact when regarding the origin of living things...

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: cmdavid

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: joshsquall
That's pretty dumb. Since when has stating the truth been considered illegal/unconstitutional? Evolution IS a theory.. it can not be proven fully. Evolution of humans and apes from a common ancestor is even more theoretical.

Yes evolution is a theory, but a theory can be a fact aswell, and evolution is a fact, we all know that.

And KK, why would they be that?

While this is a silly case, how can a theory be a fact? A theory is NOT a fact.

Evolution is a fact, though. It's the description of various scenarios as to how evolution works that is theory. Are we going to see stickers on physics books decrying the theories of relativity or gravity?

it's not a fact when regarding the origin of living things...

Evolution doesn't deign to state what the origin of living things is, does it?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: cmdavid

"This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."

thats what the sticker says.. can anybody argue against that?
Gunn summed it up best,

"It doesn't say anything about faith," Gunn said. "It doesn't say anything about religion."

It lies when it says evolution isn't a fact.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: cmdavid
it's not a fact when regarding the origin of living things...

The origin of the first life is a subject called abiogenesis, not evolution, and we have no theories of abiogenesis, only hypotheses, because we don't have sufficient facts to construct a theory of abiogenesis.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: cmdavid

"This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."

thats what the sticker says.. can anybody argue against that?
Gunn summed it up best,

"It doesn't say anything about faith," Gunn said. "It doesn't say anything about religion."

well then the sticker should say something about 'This textbook contains material on theories. Theories are not facts. Theories should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered.' but evolution was singled out over all the theories that are presented in all the textbooks used for primary and secondary schooling. you'd have to be in denial to not know what is going on .

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: joshsquall
That's pretty dumb. Since when has stating the truth been considered illegal/unconstitutional? Evolution IS a theory.. it can not be proven fully. Evolution of humans and apes from a common ancestor is even more theoretical.

Yes evolution is a theory, but a theory can be a fact aswell, and evolution is a fact, we all know that.

And KK, why would they be that?

While this is a silly case, how can a theory be a fact? A theory is NOT a fact.

Evolution is a fact, though. It's the description of various scenarios as to how evolution works that is theory. Are we going to see stickers on physics books decrying the theories of relativity or gravity?

No, Evolution is a theory. The supporting evidence of it may be factual, but if something is theory it is not fact. I believe in Evolution and believe it should be taught in schools, but scientific theory is exactly that. Creatonism is a theory as well, but is obviously a religious based one, that shouldn't be taught in a school, because science does not support it.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Mill
No, Evolution is a theory. The supporting evidence of it may be factual, but if something is theory it is not fact. I believe in Evolution and believe it should be taught in schools, but scientific theory is exactly that.

Evolution is a fact in the same way that gravity is a fact. Natural selection and geometrodynamics are the theories that explain those facts.

Creatonism is a theory as well, but is obviously a religious based one, that shouldn't be taught in a school, because science does not support it.

Creationism is not a theory, as it cannot be disproven.

 

[Red Dawn]

Creationism isn't a theory, it's a myth.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: joshsquall
That's pretty dumb. Since when has stating the truth been considered illegal/unconstitutional? Evolution IS a theory.. it can not be proven fully. Evolution of humans and apes from a common ancestor is even more theoretical.

Yes evolution is a theory, but a theory can be a fact aswell, and evolution is a fact, we all know that.

And KK, why would they be that?

While this is a silly case, how can a theory be a fact? A theory is NOT a fact.

Evolution is a fact, though. It's the description of various scenarios as to how evolution works that is theory. Are we going to see stickers on physics books decrying the theories of relativity or gravity?

No, Evolution is a theory. The supporting evidence of it may be factual, but if something is theory it is not fact. I believe in Evolution and believe it should be taught in schools, but scientific theory is exactly that. Creatonism is a theory as well, but is obviously a religious based one, that shouldn't be taught in a school, because science does not support it.

Wrong again. The supporting evidence proves evolution. What remains unknown is how those changes occurred and why.

*That* is the theory.

 

[0marTheZealot]

What is at issue here is the word theory.

In layman's terms it means a guess or a semi-educated guess.

In scientific terms it is an idea/hypthesis that has undergone extensive experimenting/observing and few if any faults have been found. A theory in science is a lot more concrete than the layman's definition. The theory of nuclear reactions and such are in the same ballpark as evolution. No one here doubts that we know a fair amount of nuclear chemistry/physics, yet it is all a theory. Or the theory of chemical reactions. Most of organic chemistry is rooted in theory; theory of reactions, equilibrium etc etc. The same is in evolution. The way the schools/disclaimers are saying theory is in the layman's definition, not the precise, concrete one that science uses.

There are only a few LAWs, which have undergone so many tests and observations that almost no modifications are necessary. Law of gravity, of motion, of thermodynamics are a few examples. In 200-300 years, if civilization still exists, I am fairly certain that Evolution and other theories will become laws as well.