Evil Bush administration pushes for Sunni inclusion in constitution talks

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
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Sunnis' best friend in Iraq negotiations? The US
BAGHDAD ? Saleh Mutlak is a lead negotiator for Iraq's Sunni Arab community on the constitutional drafting committee and says he frequently feels isolated and pushed around.

He says Iraq's majority Shiites and politically powerful minority Kurds seem determined to ignore the concerns of his community in the constitutional negotiations, which face a provisional deadline of midnight Monday. He warns of the consequences if a constitution is drafted over Sunni objections.

In fact, he says he'd despair completely of the process if it weren't for the help of a surprising new ally: the US ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad.

"Zalmay is the boss,'' says Mr. Mutlak, who himself has received death threats from members of his own community for participating in the process. "He's played a very good role slowing the other parties down, in talking to those who are asking for too much."

The US envoy and Iraq's Sunni Arab leadership might seem strange bedfellows. The Sunnis continue to refer to the country's Sunni-led insurgency as the "resistance" and often view the US project here as determined to convert them into Iraq's new underclass. After all, the toppling of Saddam Hussein lifted the boot from the necks of Iraq's Kurds and Shiites, and ended the dominant status of Iraq's Sunni Arab minority.

But US officials say they recognize that if a constitution is completed without buy-in from Iraq's Sunni Arabs, and without language that balances most of the country's competing interests, then it won't have a chance of fulfilling its primary goal: Ending the war.

"Despite the very real possibility that pushing through a draft constitution over Sunni Arab objections could prolong the violence, the Shiites and Kurds are pressing their agendas as if they had no understanding that such dire consequences were a serious possibility,'' says Mr. White.

US diplomats say they are aware of those risks, and Khalilzad's role has been to push them - sometimes cajoling, at other times reminding them of American blood spilled and money spent here - toward common ground. He participated in at least 10 hours of negotiations on Sunday, and was closeted with Iraqi political leaders throughout most of Monday.
It's a strange form of excitement, watching the minutes count down towards the midnight deadline for the new Iraqi constitution proposal. I'll be staying tuned to see what happens in this Middle Eastern experiment in democracy the United States has going on.

One of the more amusing things the article says (near the bottom) is that there's a worry that if the Sunni faction is unsatisfied with the constitution and needs its people to veto it, the insurgents may not interfere with voters trying to cast a ballot to do that. Now that's cutting off your nose to spite your face!
 

fornax

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
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And of course our administration is doing it just because they have good hearts and love the Sunnis. yllus, are you just trolling or you're really that brainwashed?
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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Apart from the sarcastic thread title, how is this possibly trolling? The reasons the U.S. is giving the Sunni faction a boost are clearly outlined in the article. Do you dispute those reasons?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
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West to east:
Saudi Arabia (Sunni fundamentalists)
Iraq (former Sunni dictatorship with a Shiite majority)
Iran (Shiite fundamentalists)

hmm....

You think Protestants and Catholics don't get along? They got nothing on the Sunni-Shiite rivalry...
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Originally posted by: Vic
West to east:
Saudi Arabia (Sunni fundamentalists)
Iraq (former Sunni dictatorship with a Shiite majority)
Iran (Shiite fundamentalists)

hmm....

You think Protestants and Catholics don't get along? They got nothing on the Sunni-Shiite rivalry...

There is an east and west cathlic church. The major difference is we dont actively try to kill each other anymore :D
 
Sep 12, 2004
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The Sunnis jumped on the boat late, after being belligerent, and now all they seem to want to do is rock it to upset it.

They really need to get with the Democracy program and learn how to compromise because it may not require any Sunni involvement to get this constitution passed. Their attempt at obstructionism could come back to bite them once again.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
The Sunnis jumped on the boat late, after being belligerent, and now all they seem to want to do is rock it to upset it.

They really need to get with the Democracy program and learn how to compromise because it may not require any Sunni involvement to get this constitution passed. Their attempt at obstructionism could come back to bite them once again.

I tend to agree, although I can't guess at their reasons for doing so. In any case though, it's in our best interest to make sure that doesn't happen. Having a rather large minority being uninvolved with the new government from day one seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Sure, they might obstructing things, but I don't think it will work if they don't go along.
 

imported_Pedro69

Senior member
Jan 18, 2005
259
0
0
Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Pedro69
Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.
Throwing around big words is what took out Saddam? 130,000 soldiers and 187 billion dollars is no real effort? :confused:
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.
Throwing around big words is what took out Saddam? 130,000 soldiers and 187 billion dollars is no real effort? :confused:

Taking out Saddam is not the same thing as bringing democracy to Iraq. The absense of the former does not guarentee the rise of the latter.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.
Throwing around big words is what took out Saddam? 130,000 soldiers and 187 billion dollars is no real effort? :confused:

Taking out Saddam is not the same thing as bringing democracy to Iraq. The absense of the former does not guarentee the rise of the latter.
No it's not the same, but it's part of the "effort" and a pretty big key to getting the ball rolling in the first place. To claim the US is making no real effort and providing no help to bring democracy to Iraq when we have so many soldiers and advisors over there and have spent so much money helping with that very thing is just...well...it staggers the mind that anyone could be so blindered.

 

imported_Pedro69

Senior member
Jan 18, 2005
259
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.
Throwing around big words is what took out Saddam? 130,000 soldiers and 187 billion dollars is no real effort? :confused:

Taking out Saddam is not the same thing as bringing democracy to Iraq. The absense of the former does not guarentee the rise of the latter.
No it's not the same, but it's part of the "effort" and a pretty big key to getting the ball rolling in the first place. To claim the US is making no real effort and providing no help to bring democracy to Iraq when we have so many soldiers and advisors over there and have spent so much money helping with that very thing is just...well...it staggers the mind that anyone could be so blindered.

So Hitler also just wanted to bring "Democracy" to poland too? Part of the effort my a**. Democracy comes from the inside and not at gun point.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
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Originally posted by: Pedro69
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.
Throwing around big words is what took out Saddam? 130,000 soldiers and 187 billion dollars is no real effort? :confused:

Taking out Saddam is not the same thing as bringing democracy to Iraq. The absense of the former does not guarentee the rise of the latter.
No it's not the same, but it's part of the "effort" and a pretty big key to getting the ball rolling in the first place. To claim the US is making no real effort and providing no help to bring democracy to Iraq when we have so many soldiers and advisors over there and have spent so much money helping with that very thing is just...well...it staggers the mind that anyone could be so blindered.

So Hitler also just wanted to bring "Democracy" to poland too? Part of the effort my a**. Democracy comes from the inside and not at gun point.
Godwin's law has been invoked, you lose.

btw, our own Democracy came from gun point and without the help of an outside influence wielding those guns, the French (who almost bankrupted themselves helping us achieve freedom from the British), we likely never would have been able to achieve it on our own.
 

imported_Pedro69

Senior member
Jan 18, 2005
259
0
0
What did this Administration do to help the democratic process in Iraq? And please post credible links and not empty rhetoric.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,579
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www.bing.com
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.
Throwing around big words is what took out Saddam? 130,000 soldiers and 187 billion dollars is no real effort? :confused:

Taking out Saddam is not the same thing as bringing democracy to Iraq. The absense of the former does not guarentee the rise of the latter.
..and because you haven't had it spoon-fed to you on Cable tv, that means it doesn't exist....

sigh...

 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
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Originally posted by: Pedro69
What did this Administration do to help the democratic process in Iraq? And please post credible links and not empty rhetoric.
Excuse me? It was your initial claim that we did nothing at all. Please feel free to substatiante that claim, and provide credible links and not empty rhetoric.

Prove to me that we didn't get rid of Saddam.

Prove to me that we didn't advise Iraqis on implementing Democracy and the political Democratic process.

Prove to me that we didn't provide security around the polling stations in January.

I'll be waiting.
 

imported_Pedro69

Senior member
Jan 18, 2005
259
0
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.
Throwing around big words is what took out Saddam? 130,000 soldiers and 187 billion dollars is no real effort? :confused:

Taking out Saddam is not the same thing as bringing democracy to Iraq. The absense of the former does not guarentee the rise of the latter.
..and because you haven't had it spoon-fed to you on Cable tv, that means it doesn't exist....

sigh...

But we should take it as a fact because YOU say so?
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
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Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.
Throwing around big words is what took out Saddam? 130,000 soldiers and 187 billion dollars is no real effort? :confused:

Taking out Saddam is not the same thing as bringing democracy to Iraq. The absense of the former does not guarentee the rise of the latter.
..and because you haven't had it spoon-fed to you on Cable tv, that means it doesn't exist....

sigh...
Amazing isn't it? The democratic process has been ongoing for some time in Iraq now. Who do people think is helping to implement this? Martians?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.
Throwing around big words is what took out Saddam? 130,000 soldiers and 187 billion dollars is no real effort? :confused:

Taking out Saddam is not the same thing as bringing democracy to Iraq. The absense of the former does not guarentee the rise of the latter.
..and because you haven't had it spoon-fed to you on Cable tv, that means it doesn't exist....

sigh...

Uh, what are you talking about?

I was simply saying that taking about Saddam is not the only step in bringing Democracy to Iraq. Do you disagree?
 

imported_Pedro69

Senior member
Jan 18, 2005
259
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
What did this Administration do to help the democratic process in Iraq? And please post credible links and not empty rhetoric.
Excuse me? It was your initial claim that we did nothing at all. Please feel free to substatiante that claim, and provide credible links and not empty rhetoric.

Prove to me that we didn't get rid of Saddam.

Prove to me that we didn't advise Iraqis on implementing Democracy and the political Democratic process.

Prove to me that we didn't provide security around the polling stations in January.

I'll be waiting.

My orginal post: Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.

I'll be waiting..
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Train
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.
Throwing around big words is what took out Saddam? 130,000 soldiers and 187 billion dollars is no real effort? :confused:

Taking out Saddam is not the same thing as bringing democracy to Iraq. The absense of the former does not guarentee the rise of the latter.
..and because you haven't had it spoon-fed to you on Cable tv, that means it doesn't exist....

sigh...
Amazing isn't it? The democratic process has been ongoing for some time in Iraq now. Who do people think is helping to implement this? Martians?

Man, I got the psychic friends network here reading all sorts of things into my post...
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
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Originally posted by: Pedro69
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
What did this Administration do to help the democratic process in Iraq? And please post credible links and not empty rhetoric.
Excuse me? It was your initial claim that we did nothing at all. Please feel free to substatiante that claim, and provide credible links and not empty rhetoric.

Prove to me that we didn't get rid of Saddam.

Prove to me that we didn't advise Iraqis on implementing Democracy and the political Democratic process.

Prove to me that we didn't provide security around the polling stations in January.

I'll be waiting.

My orginal post: Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.

I'll be waiting..
You'll be waiting a long time if you expect me to do your footwork for you.

Have you actively persued this type of information? Do you know what the letters CPA stand for? Do you know who has been assisting the Iraqis in setting up their interim government and constitution? If you don't, you should, and then maybe you would see. Of course, that's only valid if you truly want to see and don't want to remain blindered.
 

imported_Pedro69

Senior member
Jan 18, 2005
259
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Pedro69
What did this Administration do to help the democratic process in Iraq? And please post credible links and not empty rhetoric.
Excuse me? It was your initial claim that we did nothing at all. Please feel free to substatiante that claim, and provide credible links and not empty rhetoric.

Prove to me that we didn't get rid of Saddam.

Prove to me that we didn't advise Iraqis on implementing Democracy and the political Democratic process.

Prove to me that we didn't provide security around the polling stations in January.

I'll be waiting.

My orginal post: Frankly I have yet to see any real effort or help by this administration on bringing democracy to iraq. Throwing around big words about freedom & democracy just don't cut it.

I'll be waiting..
You'll be waiting a long time if you expect me to do your footwork for you.

Have you actively persued this type of information? Do you know what the letters CPA stand for? Do you know who has been assisting the Iraqis in setting up their interim government and constitution? If you don't, you should, and then maybe you would see. Of course, that's only valid if you truly want to see and don't want to remain blindered.


Please post credible links and not empty rhetoric.