Evidence cited of Russian arms in Iraq

[CADsortaGUY]

US officials have found evidence corroborating White House allegations that Russian companies sold Saddam Hussein high-tech military equipment that threatened US forces during the invasion of Iraq last March

Hmmm... Should be interesting to see how this plays into Russia/US relations.

CkG

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

My sense is that this won't affect anything at all. The only way would be if these Russian companies acted with the knowlege and approval of the Russian govt.

I hate to tell you what some US companies have done in South America and elswhere, and without US govt approval.

 

[steveeast112]

You'll notice that it was the companies who sold the weapons and not the government. Russia's companies actually make lots of money a year for their weapons, just because they are some of the most advanced in the world. Plus, its not Russia's fault at all, because the companies are just trying to make a profit, not screw over the US.

 

[Genesys]

we knew this before the war, and wasnt France supposed to have sold some weapons of some sort to Iraq as well?

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

We did know this in advance. The ones I found *really* deplorable were the sales of devices that threw our missiles off course from their military targets so they would hit civilian areas. Interesting that we've got Russian companies selling devices to dictators that *guarantee* civilian deaths in the event of war, and yet we have a 5 page bitch-session against Wal Mart for selling cheap stuff and employing cheap labor.

Hmmm....

Jason

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
We did know this in advance. The ones I found *really* deplorable were the sales of devices that threw our missiles off course from their military targets so they would hit civilian areas. Interesting that we've got Russian companies selling devices to dictators that *guarantee* civilian deaths in the event of war, and yet we have a 5 page bitch-session against Wal Mart for selling cheap stuff and employing cheap labor.

Hmmm....

Jason

we know where our priorities lie!

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

I know, I'm a total freak who thinks that people should be free and responsible for their own actions. TOTALLY unAmerican!

Jason

 

[Miramonti]

Yes, it's disgusting that a country like russia would illegally trade arms for cash. Atleast when we did it we got hostages out of it.

Btw who is it illegal to anyways. I thought this administration made the UN body irrelevant.

 

[SuperTool]

Russia learned capitalism well.
Money > *
Besides, radar jammers and anti-tank missiles are defensive weapons.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: jjsole
Btw who is it illegal to anyways. I thought this administration made the UN body irrelevant.

No - I think the UN did a good job of making themselves irrelevant This is just possibly another small example.

CkG

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Russia learned capitalism well.
Money > *
Besides, radar jammers and anti-tank missiles are defensive weapons.

Doing business in an unethical way is NOT Capitalism, in spite of what your teachers and idiots in Hollywood may have taught you. The spirit of Capitalism is simply the free exchange of goods and services between unforced parties. The fact that some people decide to behave in an unethical manner isn't an indictment of Capitalism, it's an indictment against the character of that person or organization.

Jason

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Russia learned capitalism well.
Money > *
Besides, radar jammers and anti-tank missiles are defensive weapons.

Doing business in an unethical way is NOT Capitalism, in spite of what your teachers and idiots in Hollywood may have taught you. The spirit of Capitalism is simply the free exchange of goods and services between unforced parties. The fact that some people decide to behave in an unethical manner isn't an indictment of Capitalism, it's an indictment against the character of that person or organization.

Jason

What's unethical about selling defensive weapons to a sovereign country?

 

[Jhhnn]

So, uhh, DMA, which of the air to ground or ground to ground missiles used by the US are radar guided?

The correct answer is zero, last time I checked... radar guided missiles have fallen out of fashion precisely because their guidance systems can be jammed, and because they're not stealthy....

We still use some radar guided air to air missiles, and specialized beam-riding anti-radar missiles...

Your argument that these devices threw our missiles off course so that they would land in civilian areas is specious...

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
So, uhh, DMA, which of the air to ground or ground to ground missiles used by the US are radar guided?

The correct answer is zero, last time I checked... radar guided missiles have fallen out of fashion precisely because their guidance systems can be jammed, and because they're not stealthy....

We still use some radar guided air to air missiles, and specialized beam-riding anti-radar missiles...

Your argument that these devices threw our missiles off course so that they would land in civilian areas is specious...

He has the wrong technology but right concept. The alleged devices were GPS jammers. not radar jammers. I say alleged simply because I never heard if the story panned out or not. They also do not necessarily cause missles to land in civilian areas, though that will certainly happen in many cases if the target is in an urban area.

 

[heartsurgeon]

make no mistake about it.. France is going to look after tyhe commercial interests of France, and Russia is going to look after their own commercial interests (as are we by the way). To expect anyone in the world to do any different is just plain naive..

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
make no mistake about it.. France is going to look after tyhe commercial interests of France, and Russia is going to look after their own commercial interests (as are we by the way). To expect anyone in the world to do any different is just plain naive..

Pfft! This is the internet, you can always expect.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
So, uhh, DMA, which of the air to ground or ground to ground missiles used by the US are radar guided?

The correct answer is zero, last time I checked... radar guided missiles have fallen out of fashion precisely because their guidance systems can be jammed, and because they're not stealthy....

We still use some radar guided air to air missiles, and specialized beam-riding anti-radar missiles...

Your argument that these devices threw our missiles off course so that they would land in civilian areas is specious...

I stand corrected, it was the Satellite guided weapons that the jammers were intended to screw with. Just a little typo there

What's unethical about selling defensive weapons to a sovereign country?

Nothing. Iraq was under the rule of a dictator. A dictatorship is not a valid form of government since its purpose is to crush the rights of the individuals who live under it rather than protect them. To put it more plainly, Iraq under Saddam was NOT a valid Sovereignty even if the other dictators and socialists on the UN council said so. (And of COURSE they would say so, to say otherwise would be to condemn their own forms of government and pave the way for their power to be taken away from them. A power monger *never* willingly surrenders power.)


Jason

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
So, uhh, DMA, which of the air to ground or ground to ground missiles used by the US are radar guided?

The correct answer is zero, last time I checked... radar guided missiles have fallen out of fashion precisely because their guidance systems can be jammed, and because they're not stealthy....

We still use some radar guided air to air missiles, and specialized beam-riding anti-radar missiles...

Your argument that these devices threw our missiles off course so that they would land in civilian areas is specious...

I stand corrected, it was the Satellite guided weapons that the jammers were intended to screw with. Just a little typo there

What's unethical about selling defensive weapons to a sovereign country?

Nothing. Iraq was under the rule of a dictator. A dictatorship is not a valid form of government since its purpose is to crush the rights of the individuals who live under it rather than protect them. To put it more plainly, Iraq under Saddam was NOT a valid Sovereignty even if the other dictators and socialists on the UN council said so. (And of COURSE they would say so, to say otherwise would be to condemn their own forms of government and pave the way for their power to be taken away from them. A power monger *never* willingly surrenders power.)


Jason

No. Dictatorship is definitely a valid form of government. It may not be preferable, but it is valid.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

He has the wrong technology but right concept. The alleged devices were GPS jammers. not radar jammers. I say alleged simply because I never heard if the story panned out or not. They also do not necessarily cause missles to land in civilian areas, though that will certainly happen in many cases if the target is in an urban area.

Exactly, Bow, and thank you. We saw repeatedly with the war coverage that it was a common tactic for the Iraqi military to place their military targets (missile launchers, weapons, tanks, etc) in or near civilian areas, which virtually guaranteed that if the jammers worked correctly that the off-target bombs would land in civilian areas. Tactically it was a smart move, because then they could come on the news and sob a little, crying "The Americans are dropping bombs on civilian neighborhoods!" even though the bombs landed there because of their jammers. Who is that doesn't care about the civilians in this case? The Iraqi military (and let's be honest, the Iraqi civilians were never anything but targets to the Iraqi military *anyway*) and the Russian company who sold them the technology.

I would imagine that the Russian government would have kept better track of whether companies within their borders were selling to disallowed countries or not. Obviously I would be wrong in that.

Jason

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

I would imagine that the Russian government would have kept better track of whether companies within their borders were selling to disallowed countries or not. Obviously I would be wrong in that.

Jason

I'd like to know of one sovereign nation that has a reasonably free economy that hasn't done something like that at some point in time.