Ever Wonder why so many Government Employees Suck?

Amused

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Apr 14, 2001
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They're Safe, We're Not

Labor laws protect incompetent federal workers from losing their jobs; who's protecting us from their failures?

Wednesday, October 09, 2002
By Chris Edwards and Tad DeHaven



President Bush has made a bad habit of putting special interest demands ahead of the general public good on issues such as farm subsidies and trade protectionism. But on the current battle to create a new Department of Homeland Security, it is the Democrats who are kowtowing to the special interests.

The DHS bill is stalled in the Democrat-controlled Senate, which is opposing crucial reforms to ensure that the new 170,000-person department has a flexible workforce. The Senate stalemate prompted Bush to take a dig at his union-backed opponents by observing that "the Senate is more interested in special interests in Washington and not interested in the security of the American people."

Bush wants to ease the rigid federal labor rules to allow easier hiring and firing so the DHS can respond effectively to security threats. Unfortunately, Sen. Daschle and others fear any loosening of the union grip on the federal workforce. Yet federal labor rules currently put up so many barriers to removing bad employees that few supervisors ever try. The administration has noted that it takes 18 months or longer to fire a poorly performing federal worker. The performance enhancing "stick" of firing is almost completely absent from the federal workplace.

Indeed, Office of Personnel Management figures show that only 434 government employees-or .025 percent of the total federal workforce-were removed for poor performance in 2001. By contrast, the firing rate in the private sector may be as high as 4 percent annually, although accurate figures are not available. Certainly, corporate CEOs get canned at a rapid rate. One study found that 37 percent of departing CEOs of the largest U.S. companies in recent years were fired rather than leaving voluntarily.

Easing the rules for the new DHS to get rid of the bad eggs is only part of the solution. More efficient hiring practices are needed as well. Administration data indicate that it takes an average of five months to hire a federal employee, yet new hires may have key abilities useful on crucial security projects right away.

Once hired, federal workers have no functioning "carrots" to encourage them to perform the best that they can. That's because the federal merit pay system is dysfunctional. For example, new data show that fully 84 percent of federal executives received the very highest performance rating in 2001. For federal workers in general, only 619 were denied a pay raise last year because of poor performance. Thus, federal employees are given little incentive to stand out because excellence and incompetence are rewarded the same.

Certainly, most federal workers try to do a good job because they are proud of their work. But numerous high-profile blunders by the INS, FBI, CIA, and other agencies in the wake of Sept. 11 tell us that pride is not enough. Almost no heads have rolled in the wake of what is one of the greatest failures of our government. Yet if the policymakers lining up against workforce reform have their way, the new DHS will not have the tools needed to prevent the next disaster. While we need workplace reforms in every federal department, it is crucial that we start reforms with the DHS.

Beyond increased flexibility for hiring and firing, a Homeland Security bill must give the president the ability to waive union agreements when national security is at stake. Recognizing that every president since Jimmy Carter has had such power, Sen. Miller, D-Ga., asked senators still blocking the DHS bill if they would "tie the hands of our president, or give him the same unfettered flexibility other presidents have had before him?" While union-backed senators ponder that question, Bush seems committed to not allowing labor privileges to trump national security.


 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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So your solution would be to do away with unions for Federal Employees? Wouldn't it be better to make sure that those in charge of these departments are qualified instead of appointed because of political affiliations and favors? Frankly if I were a federal employee I would want to belong to a union to protect myself from the Bureaucrats
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
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I wrote somebody an email today and said that most government works are useless because they have job security and they know they can't be fired. It's plain as f**king day that because of this fact a terrible number of them don't give a sh*t about you or want to help you in the least. Unlike those in the private sector a government employee and screw the dog for years on end and continue to get paid, and probably even get raises and a nice old pension for their uselessness.

I'm surprised to admit it but of the INS officiers I've spoken to (quite a few of them) they actually seemed not only nice but fairly competent. I don't cringe having to deal with them. Compare this to state licensing agencies, and the greatest offender of them all - social security administration. The SSA is teaming with imbeciles.
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
It's next to impossible to fire a civil sevant.

When I was in the AF, I worked in an office that had a terrible civil service secratery.
She, honest to god, had a little 6" bw tv on her desk where she watched her soaps & the OJ trial. Moaned & complained whenever anybody asked her to gasp do something for them (ie. her job). And if she did do it, it was invariably screwed up, probably so you wouldn't ask her again. And, of course, came in late, left early, and took off weeks at a time for some "disability".

Many tried, but all had failed to get her fired. She just ended up transfered around to new offices that hadn't gotten the word. Or sent off for training to correct her deficiencies. :disgust:
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: ergeorge
It's next to impossible to fire a civil sevant.

When I was in the AF, I worked in an office that had a terrible civil service secratery.
She, honest to god, had a little 6" bw tv on her desk where she watched her soaps & the OJ trial. Moaned & complained whenever anybody asked her to gasp do something for them (ie. her job). And if she did do it, it was invariably screwed up, probably so you wouldn't ask her again. And, of course, came in late, left early, and took off weeks at a time for some "disability".

Many tried, but all had failed to get her fired. She just ended up transfered around to new offices that hadn't gotten the word. Or sent off for training to correct her deficiencies. :disgust:
You see, that's common as well. Such levels of uselessness are undoubtedly unusual for a government employee but even the fact that she could do it is bad enough. No doubt about it lots of people love government work because it means they never have to do any work. Then the people with a real work ethic have to work extra hard to make up for them.

If gov't was a private company it would have gone bankrupt long ago. It needs to be run more aggressively like a company. Willing to fire people as needed and layoff as needed. If gov't was streamlined like this your taxes would be a hell of a lot lower.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So your solution would be to do away with unions for Federal Employees? Wouldn't it be better to make sure that those in charge of these departments are qualified instead of appointed because of political affiliations and favors? Frankly if I were a federal employee I would want to belong to a union to protect myself from the Bureaucrats

Who said I wanted to end unions? Citizens have the right to organize. And employers should have the right to fire them. Unions will know they've gone to far when an employer will spend less training a new workforce, rather than meeting their demands... and vice versa.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So your solution would be to do away with unions for Federal Employees? Wouldn't it be better to make sure that those in charge of these departments are qualified instead of appointed because of political affiliations and favors? Frankly if I were a federal employee I would want to belong to a union to protect myself from the Bureaucrats

Who said I wanted to end unions? Citizens have the right to organize. And employers should have the right to fire them. Unions will know they've gone to far when an employer will spend less training a new workforce, rather than meeting their demands... and vice versa.
You didn't. Sorry about jumping to an incorrect conclusion.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So your solution would be to do away with unions for Federal Employees? Wouldn't it be better to make sure that those in charge of these departments are qualified instead of appointed because of political affiliations and favors? Frankly if I were a federal employee I would want to belong to a union to protect myself from the Bureaucrats

Who said I wanted to end unions? Citizens have the right to organize. And employers should have the right to fire them. Unions will know they've gone to far when an employer will spend less training a new workforce, rather than meeting their demands... and vice versa.
You didn't. Sorry about jumping to an incorrect conclusion.

That's cool :) I only want to rid ourselves of labor laws that favor unions and forbid the firing of employees.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
9
0
Any smart person already knows how to get rid of them fast.

You move them to a job that has awful hours, work conditions, or is really hard. i.e. they end up quitting.
This is what Schools do to teachers they don't like,but have tenuor, give them a remidial class at 8am and another class at 6pm they don't like but makes them work long for a class they dont even want to teach, in the end they quit.

We have a teacher at my school like that now, but even putting him is bad classes he does not want he is still here, so as soon as his tenuor review comes up he will be let go, so it is know by everybody in the department if he does not quit a day before he will be fired.

 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
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Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Any smart person already knows how to get rid of them fast.

You move them to a job that has awful hours, work conditions, or is really hard. i.e. they end up quitting.
This is what Schools do to teachers they don't like,but have tenuor, give them a remidial class at 8am and another class at 6pm they don't like but makes them work long for a class they dont even want to teach, in the end they quit.

We have a teacher at my school like that now, but even putting him is bad classes he does not want he is still here, so as soon as his tenuor review comes up he will be let go, so it is know by everybody in the department if he does not quit a day before he will be fired.

It's not that easy. The employee files a grievence with the union, and the union forces the employer to reinstate the person in their past position either per previously agreed to contract, or threat of strike. Existing labor laws give the unions this power, and make doing such a thing to a horrible employee next to impossible.

It's even worse for government employees, because what the unions and government agree upon becomes labor law for government employees.
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
1,049
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If you can't beat em... join em. I work for a pretty large and stable company, but if I were offered a solid government job doing almost the same thing, I'm 75% there in a heartbeat.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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You move them to a job that has awful hours, work conditions, or is really hard. i.e. they end up quitting.
This is what Schools do to teachers they don't like,but have tenuor, give them a remidial class at 8am and another class at 6pm they don't like but makes them work long for a class they dont even want to teach, in the end they quit.
That would work well with an employee of the CIA. Just stick him in Pakistan without any support. He'll be gone from the government payroll in no time flat:)
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Any smart person already knows how to get rid of them fast.

You move them to a job that has awful hours, work conditions, or is really hard. i.e. they end up quitting.
This is what Schools do to teachers they don't like,but have tenuor, give them a remidial class at 8am and another class at 6pm they don't like but makes them work long for a class they dont even want to teach, in the end they quit.

We have a teacher at my school like that now, but even putting him is bad classes he does not want he is still here, so as soon as his tenuor review comes up he will be let go, so it is know by everybody in the department if he does not quit a day before he will be fired.

As Amused said, you're basically hoping that the employee is to lazy to take it up with the union.
If they do, and can show evidence that getting the employee to quit was the intention, it will be used against management at the next contract negotiation. Or you'll see it in "job actions" like "work to rule".

Unions are important, but in many markets thay have, IMHO, gotten far to much power and have really hurt US industry.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
Originally posted by: ergeorge
It's next to impossible to fire a civil sevant.

When I was in the AF, I worked in an office that had a terrible civil service secratery.
She, honest to god, had a little 6" bw tv on her desk where she watched her soaps & the OJ trial. Moaned & complained whenever anybody asked her to gasp do something for them (ie. her job). And if she did do it, it was invariably screwed up, probably so you wouldn't ask her again. And, of course, came in late, left early, and took off weeks at a time for some "disability".

Many tried, but all had failed to get her fired. She just ended up transfered around to new offices that hadn't gotten the word. Or sent off for training to correct her deficiencies. :disgust:

My dad is a district manager in the IRS, he was telling me about a secretary he got one time who was just as useless. Couldn't take notes, could barely type, and was lazy as hell.

Well it usually takes months and months to get someone fired, because you have to document everything about them that you're using as a reason to fire them. I think it's so they can avoid sexual harassment or discrimination law suits. So with this in mind, my dad basically made her life a living hell with work and assignments and she eventually quit.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
9
0
Originally posted by: ergeorge
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Any smart person already knows how to get rid of them fast.

You move them to a job that has awful hours, work conditions, or is really hard. i.e. they end up quitting.
This is what Schools do to teachers they don't like,but have tenuor, give them a remidial class at 8am and another class at 6pm they don't like but makes them work long for a class they dont even want to teach, in the end they quit.

We have a teacher at my school like that now, but even putting him is bad classes he does not want he is still here, so as soon as his tenuor review comes up he will be let go, so it is know by everybody in the department if he does not quit a day before he will be fired.

As Amused said, you're basically hoping that the employee is to lazy to take it up with the union.
If they do, and can show evidence that getting the employee to quit was the intention, it will be used against management at the next contract negotiation. Or you'll see it in "job actions" like "work to rule".

Unions are important, but in many markets thay have, IMHO, gotten far to much power and have really hurt US industry.


Actually unions have been on a decrease for around 30 years now.

BUT, with so many companies raiding there employees pensions, cutting benefits and having no loyalty to their employees, Unions may be on the rise if the economy does not pick up or if these big corporate problems keep coming out.

And also the best way to fight a union, is take care of your employees so a union is not needed. Unions only come to be when employees are being treated unfairly or Mngt. Strong arms them. A union just does to companies what they were doing to employees before. It is more or less a pissing match and in the end nobody wins.

So take care of your employees, and they will not union, don?t take care of them and you leave them no other option and it cost you more in the end.


 

tm37

Lifer
Jan 24, 2001
12,436
1
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
So your solution would be to do away with unions for Federal Employees? Wouldn't it be better to make sure that those in charge of these departments are qualified instead of appointed because of political affiliations and favors? Frankly if I were a federal employee I would want to belong to a union to protect myself from the Bureaucrats

Who said I wanted to end unions? Citizens have the right to organize. And employers should have the right to fire them. Unions will know they've gone to far when an employer will spend less training a new workforce, rather than meeting their demands... and vice versa.
You didn't. Sorry about jumping to an incorrect conclusion.

****ATOT HISITORY IN THE MAKING****

Red Dawn saying he's sorry:Q;)

You must be getting soft in your old age;)

TO the topic at hand....

There are instances that Unions do good however many times they tend to look past whats best for the MEMBERS and do what is best for the union in general. It benifits the membership IF Employees are held accountable BUT it hurts the Union (fewer members) as employers are required to hire more woker to do the job that some moron can't or won't do the union grows and the workers that do work continue to be burdened with picking up the slack. While I don't think that unions need to be done away with I do think the member should take a hard look at just what there leader are doing.
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,207
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www.theshoppinqueen.com
There are bad workers.. but there are also equally bad or worse employers when you are faced with a less than wonderful employer being a union member can make the all the difference in your working day !
 

nord1899

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,444
0
0
Originally posted by: maladroit
Originally posted by: ergeorge
It's next to impossible to fire a civil sevant.

When I was in the AF, I worked in an office that had a terrible civil service secratery.
She, honest to god, had a little 6" bw tv on her desk where she watched her soaps & the OJ trial. Moaned & complained whenever anybody asked her to gasp do something for them (ie. her job). And if she did do it, it was invariably screwed up, probably so you wouldn't ask her again. And, of course, came in late, left early, and took off weeks at a time for some "disability".

Many tried, but all had failed to get her fired. She just ended up transfered around to new offices that hadn't gotten the word. Or sent off for training to correct her deficiencies. :disgust:

My dad is a district manager in the IRS, he was telling me about a secretary he got one time who was just as useless. Couldn't take notes, could barely type, and was lazy as hell.

Well it usually takes months and months to get someone fired, because you have to document everything about them that you're using as a reason to fire them. I think it's so they can avoid sexual harassment or discrimination law suits. So with this in mind, my dad basically made her life a living hell with work and assignments and she eventually quit.

You are correct that a lot of it has to do with discrimination.

My mom works in government and has managerial responsibilities. One of her workers is a minority (which really doesn't matter). That worker is also extremely incompetant. But because of the minority and the organization dedicated to it, it is practically impossible to fire the employee. Because the first thing that will happen is a discrimination lawsuit. And the government rather just let the employee rot there than deal with the lawsuit.
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Originally posted by: nord1899
Originally posted by: maladroit
Originally posted by: ergeorge
It's next to impossible to fire a civil sevant.

When I was in the AF, I worked in an office that had a terrible civil service secratery.
She, honest to god, had a little 6" bw tv on her desk where she watched her soaps & the OJ trial. Moaned & complained whenever anybody asked her to gasp do something for them (ie. her job). And if she did do it, it was invariably screwed up, probably so you wouldn't ask her again. And, of course, came in late, left early, and took off weeks at a time for some "disability".

Many tried, but all had failed to get her fired. She just ended up transfered around to new offices that hadn't gotten the word. Or sent off for training to correct her deficiencies. :disgust:

My dad is a district manager in the IRS, he was telling me about a secretary he got one time who was just as useless. Couldn't take notes, could barely type, and was lazy as hell.

Well it usually takes months and months to get someone fired, because you have to document everything about them that you're using as a reason to fire them. I think it's so they can avoid sexual harassment or discrimination law suits. So with this in mind, my dad basically made her life a living hell with work and assignments and she eventually quit.

You are correct that a lot of it has to do with discrimination.

My mom works in government and has managerial responsibilities. One of her workers is a minority (which really doesn't matter). That worker is also extremely incompetant. But because of the minority and the organization dedicated to it, it is practically impossible to fire the employee. Because the first thing that will happen is a discrimination lawsuit. And the government rather just let the employee rot there than deal with the lawsuit.


Yea, I forgot to mention that.
The secratery I described was a black woman, who constantly threatened discrimination suits. So, given the PC climate pervasive in many government offices, everybody feared for their careers to go after the loser.
 

Spamela

Diamond Member
Oct 30, 2000
3,859
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76
Originally posted by: baffled2
There are bad workers.. but there are also equally bad or worse employers when you are faced with a less than wonderful employer being a union member can make the all the difference in your working day !

exactly. unions arise when people are getting fscked over by their employer.

the high-profile blunders mentioned in Amused's posting were made by management, not rank-and-file people.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,059
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Originally posted by: Spamela
Originally posted by: baffled2
There are bad workers.. but there are also equally bad or worse employers when you are faced with a less than wonderful employer being a union member can make the all the difference in your working day !

exactly. unions arise when people are getting fscked over by their employer.

the high-profile blunders mentioned in Amused's posting were made by management, not rank-and-file people.

In the government, "management" (actually, what we would term "middle management") is about as "rank and file" as anything else.

Look, folks, this has less to do with unions, and more to do with laws making it nearly impossible to fire a government employee. I have nothing against unions, so long as they do not have laws favoring them in a dispute... as they do today.

And this extends to state governments as well. Has anyone here had a pleasant experience at the local DMV?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Spamela
Originally posted by: baffled2
There are bad workers.. but there are also equally bad or worse employers when you are faced with a less than wonderful employer being a union member can make the all the difference in your working day !

exactly. unions arise when people are getting fscked over by their employer.

the high-profile blunders mentioned in Amused's posting were made by management, not rank-and-file people.

In the government, "management" (actually, what we would term "middle management") is about as "rank and file" as anything else.

Look, folks, this has less to do with unions, and more to do with laws making it nearly impossible to fire a government employee. I have nothing against unions, so long as they do not have laws favoring them in a dispute... as they do today.

And this extends to state governments as well. Has anyone here had a pleasant experience at the local DMV?

Yes, I have gone to the overstaffed one in the nearby small town. The line is usually 5 or less.
 

GoingUp

Lifer
Jul 31, 2002
16,720
1
71
You know how you get rid of lazy employees? You promote them. The valuable ones they keep; but they have to get rid of the lazy ones somehow so they promote them.
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,391
1,780
126
I agree....government agencies and organizations are usually very wasteful. However, there are the other groups of them that are resourceful. I work for a University and we're more short staffed than the post office. We all have to be a jack of all trades and put forth lots of effort to get anything done because of the political hurdles we have to jump here. I'm sure it's the same everywhere with budgets and poor organizational design through many systems, but not all employees are willing to go that extra distance to see that things get done properly. For those people, they will eventually get relocated or lose funding altogether if their department or organization doesn't get the job done. The only difference is that it will take a little longer for the lack of productivity to be noticed. Many different departments of federal and state governments are 'streamlining' every year. Streamlining just means they are cutting their budgets by laying off people and banding counties and states into groups to center services based on demographics. The plans I've dealt with in the past had to do with the Department of Labor and they took about 4 years to implement. I can say that they have been a success in the State of Tennessee and expect it to be the same in most other states.