Europeon Left vs. American Left

[brycejones]

Please list your news sources.

Does his ass count?

 

[Gryz]

What exactly do you disagree with? That European leftist scum support welfare programs?

Everybody supports welfare programs. Not just the left. The right too. We don't like seeing out country-men and women dying in our streets, because of hunger or lack of healthcare.

European leftists attack free speech?

The US has very broad free-speech laws. I applaud that. But sometimes I wonder if some people shouldn't be told to just stfu. Slander, obvious lies, pure disinformation. Fox News comes to mind. But to be honest, I wouldn't know how to formulate such laws.

But the fact that the US has such an extreme free-speech law does not mean that European countries do not have free speech. Or are attacking free speech. Yes, Germany has a bunch of limitations. But you know what, they had a pretty traumatic experience a while ago. I can understand them when they ban a certain book, or forbid certain symbols. In general, you can still say whatever you want in Germany. Actually, the Germans have boatloads of discussion programs on TV, where all kinds of social and politicals issues are discussed in a serious manner. US TV can learn something from them.

If there is an attack on free speech in Europe, it is actually the right that is doing it. Right-wing politicians in Poland trying to shape history the way they like it best, and are forbidding people to say other things. The EU (which by definition is ultra-right wing) has come with this ridiculous proposal to fight "fake-news". But that is destined to fail.

 

[Incorruptible]

Everybody supports welfare programs. Not just the left. The right too. We don't like seeing out country-men and women dying in our streets, because of hunger or lack of healthcare.


The US has very broad free-speech laws. I applaud that. But sometimes I wonder if some people shouldn't be told to just stfu. Slander, obvious lies, pure disinformation. Fox News comes to mind. But to be honest, I wouldn't know how to formulate such laws.

But the fact that the US has such an extreme free-speech law does not mean that European countries do not have free speech. Or are attacking free speech. Yes, Germany has a bunch of limitations. But you know what, they had a pretty traumatic experience a while ago. I can understand them when they ban a certain book, or forbid certain symbols. In general, you can still say whatever you want in Germany. Actually, the Germans have boatloads of discussion programs on TV, where all kinds of social and politicals issues are discussed in a serious manner. US TV can learn something from them.

If there is an attack on free speech in Europe, it is actually the right that is doing it. Right-wing politicians in Poland trying to shape history the way they like it best, and are forbidding people to say other things. The EU (which by definition is ultra-right wing) has come with this ridiculous proposal to fight "fake-news". But that is destined to fail.

These welfare programs are very costly and only encourage people to stay on them and not get a job.

Free speech is one of the most important rights we have. We should be able to voice our opinions and criticize the government. Europe is much more strict and thats not a good thing. Germany is a special case, the argument can be made that by banning those books they actually help the Neo-Nazis.

If you think Europe actually has free speech then check this out

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704409004576146332536459942

 

[Gryz]

These welfare programs are very costly and only encourage people to stay on them and not get a job.

It also encourages them to not die of hunger, die of cold. It encourages their kids to go to school. Sure, the system of welfare is not perfect. But it's a hell better than the US way of "FYGM and everyone else can go DIAF". Even our right-wing politicians realize that. It's only in the US where half the population is a cvnt and thinks that it is totally normal to let your fellow men die just like that.

If you think Europe actually has free speech then check this out
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704409004576146332536459942

You serious ? You're referring to an article written by my country-man Geert Wilders ? You think I don't know who he is, or what he has to say ? WTF ?

Also, that article is from 2011. I agree with Wilders on some points, and disagree on others. But basically he's a dumb fuck who hasn't achieved anything. By outing extreme opinions, he's disqualifying himself. And he's disqualifying the people who voted for him. If he would be a little smarter, he could actually maybe get something accomplished. But no. He keeps saying dumb stuff. I agree he shouldn't have to face trial for anything he said. And so did half my country. But he would have been a lot smarter if he would word his opinion differently.

And FYI, in the first case in 2010/2011, Wilders was acquitted.
In the 2nd case, he got convicted of some accusations (insult), and acquitted of some other accusations (encouraging hatred). And the judges gave him no punishment.
So basically, our judicial system let him say whatever dribble he wanted to say.

 

[SlowSpyder]

It also encourages them to not die of hunger, die of cold. It encourages their kids to go to school. Sure, the system of welfare is not perfect. But it's a hell better than the US way of "FYGM and everyone else can go DIAF". Even our right-wing politicians realize that. It's only in the US where half the population is a cvnt and thinks that it is totally normal to let your fellow men die just like that.

But I thought that was a big problem in Spain and Greece in the recent past, people just simply didn't want to work.

 

[woolfe9998]

But I thought that was a big problem in Spain and Greece in the recent past, people just simply didn't want to work.

You mean there were labor shortages simply because too many able bodied adults didn't want to work? That's the very sort of thing which requires sourcing.

 

[jackstar7]

You mean there were labor shortages simply because too many able bodied adults didn't want to work? That's the very sort of thing which requires sourcing.

He has assured me that he always backs things up. Give him a minute.

 

[SlowSpyder]

You mean there were labor shortages simply because too many able bodied adults didn't want to work? That's the very sort of thing which requires sourcing.

Yes, I think that was the issue, though I admit I'm not an expert on it, and am sure there was more to it and it was a complicated situation. But, from what I recall, there were stories about many able bodied individuals refusing to work as it wouldn't compare to their government benefits at the time.

 

[SlowSpyder]

He has assured me that he always backs things up. Give him a minute.

I'm not making any statements of fact here, but trying to hear different view points. I admittedly am going by memory of a situation I read a handful of news stories about at the time. Stop trying so hard.

 

[woolfe9998]

Yes, I think that was the issue, though I admit I'm not an expert on it, and am sure there was more to it and it was a complicated situation. But, from what I recall, there were stories about many able bodied individuals refusing to work as it wouldn't compare to their government benefits at the time.

Right, no sourcing. Anyway, even if it were true that some able bodied people didn't want to work because they preferred government benefits, that would only matter in an actual labor shortage. Yet every country in the world has structural unemployment. If there will always be millions of people who are unemployed, it really doesn't matter if some of those people have become comfortable with their government benefits and prefer not to work. You may not like the idea of it, but it has no effect whatsoever on material reality.

 

[Incorruptible]

It also encourages them to not die of hunger, die of cold. It encourages their kids to go to school. Sure, the system of welfare is not perfect. But it's a hell better than the US way of "FYGM and everyone else can go DIAF". Even our right-wing politicians realize that. It's only in the US where half the population is a cvnt and thinks that it is totally normal to let your fellow men die just like that.


You serious ? You're referring to an article written by my country-man Geert Wilders ? You think I don't know who he is, or what he has to say ? WTF ?

Also, that article is from 2011. I agree with Wilders on some points, and disagree on others. But basically he's a dumb fuck who hasn't achieved anything. By outing extreme opinions, he's disqualifying himself. And he's disqualifying the people who voted for him. If he would be a little smarter, he could actually maybe get something accomplished. But no. He keeps saying dumb stuff. I agree he shouldn't have to face trial for anything he said. And so did half my country. But he would have been a lot smarter if he would word his opinion differently.

And FYI, in the first case in 2010/2011, Wilders was acquitted.
In the 2nd case, he got convicted of some accusations (insult), and acquitted of some other accusations (encouraging hatred). And the judges gave him no punishment.
So basically, our judicial system let him say whatever dribble he wanted to say.

Have you not seen the abuse of welfare. Too many people who just want to sponge off others and not work. Even jihadis were being encouraged to use welfare.

People should never be prosecuted for free speech. He shouldn't have even had to go to court and be charged, that shows how your system isn't working and still thinks its acceptable to attack free speech.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...ree-speech-why-it-should-concern-us-all.shtml

https://www.economist.com/news/euro...time-issue-migrants-europe-sees-paris-attacks

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/25/world/europe/spain-europe-protest-free-speech.html

 

[brycejones]

I'm not making any statements of fact here, but trying to hear different view points. I admittedly am going by memory of a situation I read a handful of news stories about at the time. Stop trying so hard.

Stop being so ignorant. If you think you remembered something try to do some research and see if you remembered it correctly.

You might start with the number of laws passed in the last 20 years to restrict where people can smoke and increasing taxes on cigarettes before you bring that dumb shit up again.

 

[realibrad]

Stop being so ignorant. If you think you remembered something try to do some research and see if you remembered it correctly.

You might start with the number of laws passed in the last 20 years to restrict where people can smoke and increasing taxes on cigarettes before you bring that dumb shit up again.

Would Greece having the 2nd lowest Labour force participation rate in the EU suffice?

 

[hal2kilo]

Have you not seen the abuse of welfare. Too many people who just want to sponge off others and not work. Even jihadis were being encouraged to use welfare.

People should never be prosecuted for free speech. He shouldn't have even had to go to court and be charged, that shows how your system isn't working and still thinks its acceptable to attack free speech.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...ree-speech-why-it-should-concern-us-all.shtml

https://www.economist.com/news/euro...time-issue-migrants-europe-sees-paris-attacks

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/25/world/europe/spain-europe-protest-free-speech.html

Now I remember. You go off on tangents with lists of your outrage, you know, Hannity like. You are going to make it to ignore in record time.

 

[cytg111]

Have you not seen the abuse of welfare. Too many people who just want to sponge off others and not work. Even jihadis were being encouraged to use welfare.

People should never be prosecuted for free speech. He shouldn't have even had to go to court and be charged, that shows how your system isn't working and still thinks its acceptable to attack free speech.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...ree-speech-why-it-should-concern-us-all.shtml

https://www.economist.com/news/euro...time-issue-migrants-europe-sees-paris-attacks

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/25/world/europe/spain-europe-protest-free-speech.html

If these spongers want to get by on a absolutly minimal income then it is sort of their choice.. they are still required to show for reeducation and/or document that they are acrively seeking jobs.. but its not hard to fool those systems... Just let them be, they are not a problem and not a drain on the system beyond lost potential.
Wilders, Le Pen, etc is right wing nut jobs with minimal influence in day to day politics.. the US voted The Donald for fcking president. Get off my lawn. Europe tolerates groups like Hizbut Tahrir in the name of free speech, it doesnt get more tolerant than that. Europe has a functional and wealthy middle class and the least amount of corruption on the planet. Yea this system sure isnt working. Wonder why Putin wants to tear us down? You cant showcase a working democracy like that... what if the people "get ideas"?

 

[brycejones]

Now I remember. You go off on tangents with lists of your outrage, you know, Hannity like. You are going to make it to ignore in record time.

Its like an early alpha version of tajbot.

 

[pmv]

Would Greece having the 2nd lowest Labour force participation rate in the EU suffice?

Suffice for what? I can't work out how this is intended to relate to the post it's replying to.

Anyway, employment in Greece collapsed along with the economy thanks to the misguided Euro project. Greedy bankers and corrupt Greek elites didn't help either.

As far as I can work out, the US has about 1.5% of it's labour force in prison. Not sure that's a better outcome.

 

[realibrad]

Suffice for what? I can't work out how

this is intended to relate to the post it's replying to.

Anyway, employment in Greece collapsed along with the economy thanks to the misguided Euro project. Greedy bankers and corrupt Greek elites didn't help either.

As far as I can work out, the US has about 1.5% of it's labour force in prison. Not sure that's a better outcome.

So it comes from this post...

But I thought that was a big problem in Spain and Greece in the recent past, people just simply didn't want to work.

and then people saying that is not true and asking for evidence. A few people then went after the idea because Slow did not back up his claim, and nobody cared to examine it because Slow is disliked by a great many people so they just attacked him instead.

So, the fact that Greece has the worst labor participation rate in the EU would seem to back up Slow's statement about people in Greece not wanting to work. Its not flawless as there could be many other reasons as to what is causing that, but it does not seem like nothing either.

*I should also add that anecdotally I have talked to people that live and work in the EU and have said that Greece is very annoying to work with. They start the day late, take very long breaks, and end the day early. This makes working on big projects take a very long time.

 

[pmv]

So it comes from this post...



and then people saying that is not true and asking for evidence. A few people then went after the idea because Slow did not back up his claim, and nobody cared to examine it because Slow is disliked by a great many people so they just attacked him instead.

So, the fact that Greece has the worst labor participation rate in the EU would seem to back up Slow's statement about people in Greece not wanting to work. Its not flawless as there could be many other reasons as to what is causing that, but it does not seem like nothing either.

*I should also add that anecdotally I have talked to people that live and work in the EU and have said that Greece is very annoying to work with. They start the day late, take very long breaks, and end the day early. This makes working on big projects take a very long time.

Well, I'm hesitant to wade too far into this because I'm really not personally familar with the culture of Southern Europe (though I know the stereotypes well enough). But I'm not buying into American presenteeism and puritan culture either (it doesn't seem to have produced results that are _that_ great, or else you wouldn't have elected Trump - your workers wages have been stagnant for a long time, for all their long hours).

The question isn't about long-term differences in the political history and culture of Southern Europe vs the Anglosphere, the problem is your dubious assumption about unemployment being voluntary, as if labour participation rates dropped following the financial crisis (and every other capitalist crisis in history) because people all mysteriously became lazier. And certainly with Spain, I think it's more about people having difficulty finding work and not wanting to pay taxes than it is about not working as such - the 'black economy' is pretty substantial, and many Spanish appear so eager to work that they have relocated to the UK (about a million of them I think, since the eurozone fiasco hit - edit, actually not at all sure what the numbers are, but certainly it was a large 'surge'). As have many Greeks, come to that.

Actually one problem I have with the EU is that you have the Continental countries with good rights for those in work, at the expense of those locked-out of that labour market, vs the UK with a highly 'liberalised' labour market that offers crappy insecure low-wage jobs that people can be hired and fired for with equal ease. It seems obvious that with that divide you will get an army of surplus labour moving from the Continent to compete with UK workers for their already rather insecure jobs. I personally think that's a big part of what bought about Brexit. UK workers get the worst of both worlds, the insecurity of a liberalised labour market combined with the competing surplus labour of Europe's more regulated one.

 

[realibrad]

Well, I'm hesitant to wade too far into this because I'm really not personally familar with the culture of Southern Europe (though I know the stereotypes well enough). But I'm not buying into American presenteeism and puritan culture either (it doesn't seem to have produced results that are _that_ great, or else you wouldn't have elected Trump - your workers wages have been stagnant for a long time, for all their long hours).

The question isn't about long-term differences in the political history and culture of Southern Europe vs the Anglosphere, the problem is your dubious assumption about unemployment being voluntary, as if labour participation rates dropped following the financial crisis (and every other capitalist crisis in history) because people all mysteriously became lazier. And certainly with Spain, I think it's more about people having difficulty finding work and not wanting to pay taxes than it is about not working as such - the 'black economy' is pretty substantial, and many Spanish appear so eager to work that they have relocated to the UK (about a million of them I think, since the eurozone fiasco hit - edit, actually not at all sure what the numbers are, but certainly it was a large 'surge'). As have many Greeks, come to that.

Actually one problem I have with the EU is that you have the Continental countries with good rights for those in work, at the expense of those locked-out of that labour market, vs the UK with a highly 'liberalised' labour market that offers crappy insecure low-wage jobs that people can be hired and fired for with equal ease. It seems obvious that with that divide you will get an army of surplus labour moving from the Continent to compete with UK workers for their already rather insecure jobs. I personally think that's a big part of what bought about Brexit. UK workers get the worst of both worlds, the insecurity of a liberalised labour market combined with the competing surplus labour of Europe's more regulated one.

Before I respond, I want to make something clear. This is a complex discussion you seem to want to have, and, while I will enjoy this discussion, I want to make sure that you will get the same. I am often called a pedant because I enjoy going into the complexity of a discussion. Neither of us are experts on this topic, so there are bound to be missteps. That is going to trigger people to jump in mid way and make this more convoluted. I understand that you prefer to have public discussions, so you will not only have to deal with my desire to get into the weeds, but others trying to fertilize those weeds making this even more complex. I will not try to make things more difficult as an attempt to defend my position, and, will honestly try to give my opinion and engage. that said, are you sure you want to go down this road?