European Union Supports Hamas

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
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so long as they have a political wing, they are perfectly within their right to kill innocent Israelis and we fully support their cause, says EU. That goes for any other terrorist groups attacking Israel.



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Bush urges EU action on Hamas

US President George W Bush has urged European leaders to take "swift and decisive action" against the Palestinian militant group Hamas by cutting off its funding.


Speaking at a joint summit between US and European leaders, Mr Bush said the dismantling of such groups would be the "true test" of the so-called roadmap for peace in the Middle East.

The two sides also made a joint call to Iran and North Korea to abandon any ambitions they may have of possessing nuclear weapons.

The two countries have been described by Mr Bush in the past as part of an "axis of evil", along with Iraq.

Mr Bush said the US and Europe were "working closely to meet the proliferation challenges posed by North Korea and Iran."

His meeting with senior EU figures was the first since transatlantic relations were strained by the war on Iraq, and their joint statement is being seen as an attempt to present a united front.

However, correspondents say continuing differences became apparent as Mr Bush pressed the EU to crack down on Hamas.

"Progress toward this goal will only be possible if all sides do all in their power to defeat the determined enemies of peace, such as Hamas and other terrorist groups, he said.

The EU for its part insists that Hamas has political functions as well as a militant wing.


Deals struck

Brussels and Washington are trying to demonstrate at the summit that they have entered a post-war era of closer co-operation following sharp divisions over the conflict in Iraq.

An extradition deal between the two sides was signed on Wednesday, authorising the sharing of information and broadening the scope of crimes to which extradition would apply.

The deal follows an EU pledge struck in the wake of the 11 September attacks to help the US combat terror attacks.

Both sides also agreed to hold talks this autumn on an open-skies agreement liberalising air travel between the EU and the US, replacing existing bilateral agreements with individual European countries.

EU and US leaders played down divisions, with president of the European Commission Romano Prodi saying that unity was essential for dealing with the world's problems.

"When Europe and United States are united no problem and no enemy can stand against us," he said.

However BBC correspondent Rob Watson in Washington said that despite such soothing words the different approach to Hamas shows that new talk of unity still has its limits.

Divisions remain

Disagreements remain over several issues, such as genetically-modified crops, which the US is much more keen than the EU to develop and exploit.

The US president has criticised EU GM policies, saying they contributed to famine in Africa, while Europe has hit back, insisting that Brussels did much more than Washington to feed the hungry.

Separate divisions also exist on the International Criminal Court, established in The Hague in the face of the US refusal for its soldiers to be subject to the court's jurisdiction.

"The United States and Europe, together, have an obligation to look beyond themselves to the world," said a senior official in the Bush administration.

"That is where the threats to freedom are, the threats to security could come from, and where the opportunities are for joint action."

The deal was agreed after the EU, which is opposed to capital punishment, won the right to refuse extradition in cases where the maximum penalty was death.

A separate agreement allows law enforcement agencies on both sides of the Atlantic to access bank accounts in some criminal and anti-terror inquiries.

And discussions will be held on allowing US officials based in European ports to inspect shipping containers due to set sail for the US.




 

Hayabusa Rider

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Hello Andy!

He makes a reference that Hamas serves a political function, and therefore has some justification for existence, while Bush wants to have Hamas dissolved entirely. At least I assume that is the case.
 

Fencer128

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Jun 18, 2001
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Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
Hello Andy!

He makes a reference that Hamas serves a political function, and therefore has some justification for existence, while Bush wants to have Hamas dissolved entirely. At least I assume that is the case.

Hi Haya! :)

Well here's my view on that:

Do Hamas have a political party in Palestine? If they do then you have to work together with the Palestinian authority to make Hamas realise that the only way they will be able to partially (note partially) achieve their goals and to have any say over their voters future is to play the political and not the terrorist game. People may sya "but they will never partially agree to anything" - but then would you have also thought them capable of declaring a cease-fire?

A political/terrorist Hamas will never be "destroyed" via bomb or gun - be it by the US, Israel or Palestinian police/goverment. This has been shown many times throughout the world with other political/terrorist organisations.

If they have a political side then this must be brought into (with conditions on ending violence) the mainstream arena.

I draw analogies with NI on these points.

If they don't have a political party/repesentatives in Palestine, then I fail to see the EU's reasoning or justification for Hamas' continuing existance.

Cheers,

Andy
 

Hayabusa Rider

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I think the EU and Bush are talking about different things. Bush wants Hamas gone. End of story. Many Palestinians look at Hamas as a group of dedicated people supporting the Palestinian cause. Heroes if you will. Hamas therefore has a strong political effect with the people, and from a pragmatic point of view realize they are going to have to deal with them regardless of how much they dislike what they do. Bush is thinking from an ideal POV and the EU a more practical one.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
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Originally posted by: Hayabusarider
I think the EU and Bush are talking about different things. Bush wants Hamas gone. End of story. Many Palestinians look at Hamas as a group of dedicated people supporting the Palestinian cause. Heroes if you will. Hamas therefore has a strong political effect with the people, and from a pragmatic point of view realize they are going to have to deal with them regardless of how much they dislike what they do. Bush is thinking from an ideal POV and the EU a more practical one.

hamas only came about from the failure of the PLA to provide the basic needs of Palestinians and as an armed resistance against the israelis. while this group was rightly seen as somewhat legitimate from 1987-1991, it has resorted to primarily terrorist activities when the PLO came to power after the oslo agreement. that was the only wasy for it to survive. when the PLA started to falter(because of corruption, among other things), it again took up the humanitarian (political) efforts that Arafat failed to carry out while he hoarded hundreds of millions of dollars from the Palestinians (via donors and taxes). Instead, the organization was used as one of arafat's many pawns in his battle against israel. let's not forget that arafat could've easily destroyed hamas in the 1990s with his large police force and the establishment of an interim government for the people. anyway, hamas survives on the weakness and anger of the Palestinians.

George Bush and his administration sees all of this. the European Union, trying to be a moral superpower, trumphs the humanitarian part of hamas over its terrorist activities. if hamas was to go, there would always be someone there to provide the humanitarian needs of the Palestinians. Hence, the organization needs to own up to its terrorist activities and ultimately destroyed.
 

Fencer128

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Jun 18, 2001
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...George Bush and his administration sees all of this. the European Union, trying to be a moral superpower, trumphs the humanitarian part of hamas over its terrorist activities. if hamas was to go, there would always be someone there to provide the humanitarian needs of the Palestinians. Hence, the organization needs to own up to its terrorist activities and ultimately destroyed.

But that's what I've been trying to explain. They will not just "go" so long as their is another political/humanitarian side to them - "triumphed" by others or not. What is important is that they have support from Palestinians themselves. Because of this I can never see how an external power could destroy them, nor how the Palestinians would turn against them if they offer up cease fires (i.e. show themselves to have some positive ways of moving towards a peace).

I've never seen proof that this "destroy terrorist" mentality can be extended to wiping out entire groups. There always has to be negotiation for a final peace. That is why the EU are making note of Hamas' political side. They see this because they've played out these terrorist strategies many times over - and along with aggressive containment (taking out/jailing the odd terrorist) they know the only thing that works is to come to a negotiated settlement. Why does Spain continually go back to the table with Eta? Why did the UK continually accept ceasefires and talks with the IRA/PIRA. You cannot wipe these people out as so many would like. You just end up with the crystal clear example of the Israel/Palestine model if you perpetually try that.

Andy
 

Hayabusa Rider

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Alistar7

Re Dari's concept.

First, I would love to see Arafat, Hamas, and the PLO in general go. Here is the problem though. The Palestinians do not agree with Dari. THEY see them as defending Palestinian interests. Bush merely inflames with rhetoric. He ought to know thay aren't going away. You could ignore or attack Hamas. That has been tried, and it hasnt worked. I think it would be better to uplift someone like Abbas (assuming that he does have good intent- something that needs to be assumed until proven otherwise) and work to bolster moderate factions. So, give Hamas the carrot as well as the stick. Promote good faith. This means that if a cease fire comes about, the Israelis must end hunting season as well as the Palestinians. You and I may not like Hamas, but you cannot ignore them if the Palestinians want them. That is a part of diplomacy, having to deal with those you would rather not if needs be. You do not have to agree or give in, but if they are talking, that means they are not shooting (or as much)
 

Alistar7

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May 13, 2002
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Originally posted by: Fencer128
...George Bush and his administration sees all of this. the European Union, trying to be a moral superpower, trumphs the humanitarian part of hamas over its terrorist activities. if hamas was to go, there would always be someone there to provide the humanitarian needs of the Palestinians. Hence, the organization needs to own up to its terrorist activities and ultimately destroyed.

But that's what I've been trying to explain. They will not just "go" so long as their is another political/humanitarian side to them - "triumphed" by others or not. What is important is that they have support from Palestinians themselves. Because of this I can never see how an external power could destroy them, nor how the Palestinians would turn against them if they offer up cease fires (i.e. show themselves to have some positive ways of moving towards a peace).

I've never seen proof that this "destroy terrorist" mentality can be extended to wiping out entire groups. There always has to be negotiation for a final peace. That is why the EU are making note of Hamas' political side. They see this because they've played out these terrorist strategies many times over - and along with aggressive containment (taking out/jailing the odd terrorist) they know the only thing that works is to come to a negotiated settlement. Why does Spain continually go back to the table with Eta? Why did the UK continually accept ceasefires and talks with the IRA/PIRA. You cannot wipe these people out as so many would like. You just end up with the crystal clear example of the Israel/Palestine model if you perpetually try that.

Andy

Did they "talk" with the Iranian group or just take action that caused the recent protests of people burning themselves? They funnel and hold money for Hamas though. France is trying to lead the EU, and they are firmly pro-palestine. There can be no defense for the actions of Hamas regardless of the feelings of the people of Palestine. Many in the Arab world cheered when AQ slammed planes into the twin towers and the pentagon, that didn't create justification for that action though.

"There always has to be negotiation for a final peace. "
Hitler was a terrorist who hijacked an official govt., we did not negotiate with him and we shouldn't with any others.

Maybe Hamas should put the guns down and pick up the soup ladle again, if they committed themselves to their original humanitarian mission they would have unqualified worldwide support, not too mention this would put a tremendous amount of pressure on Sharon and Israel.
 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
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im sure if the u.s. supported the palestinians financially as much as they do for israel, you'd see support for hamas by the general palestinian population dry up fast.
if the u.s. were really serious about having peace, they'd show that they weren't biased against either side.
 

drewshin

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Dec 14, 1999
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Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: Fencer128
...George Bush and his administration sees all of this. the European Union, trying to be a moral superpower, trumphs the humanitarian part of hamas over its terrorist activities. if hamas was to go, there would always be someone there to provide the humanitarian needs of the Palestinians. Hence, the organization needs to own up to its terrorist activities and ultimately destroyed.

Many in the Arab world cheered when AQ slammed planes into the twin towers and the pentagon, that didn't create justification for that action though.

more lies and propaganda. does "many" mean the twenty people you saw cheering on that video, which turned out to be a birthday party from five years ago?
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
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youre right, not even twenty people in the arab world celerbated that event....

everything is lies created by the Bush regime and the obviously biased right wing international media inlcuding Al-jazeera...

If the US was not involved Arafat would still be in power and there would be no road map. We are the only thing that keeps Israel in check.
 

Gen Stonewall

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Aug 8, 2001
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I'm beginning to believe that the road to peace can really only be traveled if Israel abandons its policy of retaliation and adopts one of annihilation (toward the terrorist groups). They can't be hated any more than they are now. The past decade has proven that "peace talks" have done nothing toward achieving peace, and they will continue to be useless as long as the Palestinian murder brigades (or what the U.S. media call "militant factions") are allowed to continue operating.
 

hagbard

Banned
Nov 30, 2000
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Originally posted by: Dari
so long as they have a political wing, they are perfectly within their right to kill innocent Israelis and we fully support their cause, says EU. That goes for any other terrorist groups attacking Israel.

No more "innocent" than Americans


 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
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My understanding is that it isnt the EU in general that supports Hamas, but almost entirely France who is recognizing them as legitimate. France just keeps digging in the spurs.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Dari


so long as they have a political wing, they are perfectly within their right to kill innocent Israelis and we fully support their cause, says EU. That goes for any other terrorist groups attacking Israel.

Originally posted by: Dari


George Bush and his administration sees all of this. the European Union, trying to be a moral superpower, trumphs the humanitarian part of hamas over its terrorist activities. if hamas was to go, there would always be someone there to provide the humanitarian needs of the Palestinians. Hence, the organization needs to own up to its terrorist activities and ultimately destroyed.

It's only those blood thirsty terrorist Palestinians killing innocent people which George Bush and his administration see eh? But they ignore
whenever the Israeli's kill innocent civilians? Oh right I almost forgot, Bush really condemned this attack when he said "I am troubled by the recent Israeli helicopter gunship attacks,..." which he pretty much revoked after the pro-Israeli lobbies put a little pressure on him later. Or how bout when Israel does somethign like this?

However the people who were killed - named by Palestinian hospital officials as Arkram Yousef Abu Farhana, 30, and a 20-year-old woman - had no links to a militant group.

Meanwhile that attack occured, bush had the audacity to say: "I'll believe it when I see it, knowing the history of terrorists in the Middle East,". is he talking about the Israeli terrorists then?