european hypocrisy (multilateralism?)
- Thread starter ElFenix
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shiner
Lifer
- Jul 18, 2000
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Pretty telling couple of paragraphs
"The ball is now in Europe?s court. How will it handle Iraq?
The record is not encouraging. For the past 10 years France and Russia have turned the United Nations into a stage from which to pursue naked self-interest. They have used multilateralism as a way to further unilateral policies. The dust from the gulf war had not settled when the French government began a quiet but persistent campaign to gut the sanctions against Iraq, turn inspections into a charade and send signals to Saddam Hussein that Paris was ready to do business with him again. ?Decades from now, when all the documents are available, someone is going to write an eye-opening book about France?s collusion with Saddam Hussein in the 1990s,? says Kenneth Pollack, who worked at the CIA and the NSC during those years.
The Russians have also been more interested in cozying up to Iraq than disarming it. There are more than 200 Russian companies in Iraq, doing deals that total at least $4 billion. Moscow has been Iraq?s most dependable ally in the Security Council, routinely endorsing its objections about sanctions and inspections. It helped sabotage the most recent efforts to create ?smart sanctions,? which would have dropped broader economic barriers in favor of targeted ones against Saddam?s regime."
"The ball is now in Europe?s court. How will it handle Iraq?
The record is not encouraging. For the past 10 years France and Russia have turned the United Nations into a stage from which to pursue naked self-interest. They have used multilateralism as a way to further unilateral policies. The dust from the gulf war had not settled when the French government began a quiet but persistent campaign to gut the sanctions against Iraq, turn inspections into a charade and send signals to Saddam Hussein that Paris was ready to do business with him again. ?Decades from now, when all the documents are available, someone is going to write an eye-opening book about France?s collusion with Saddam Hussein in the 1990s,? says Kenneth Pollack, who worked at the CIA and the NSC during those years.
The Russians have also been more interested in cozying up to Iraq than disarming it. There are more than 200 Russian companies in Iraq, doing deals that total at least $4 billion. Moscow has been Iraq?s most dependable ally in the Security Council, routinely endorsing its objections about sanctions and inspections. It helped sabotage the most recent efforts to create ?smart sanctions,? which would have dropped broader economic barriers in favor of targeted ones against Saddam?s regime."
All is fair in politics I guess.
France and Russia have an economic relationship with Iraq that ignores Iraq's bad side. "Show me da money", they say.
Back in the days of Bush v1.0, GHWB often talked about "engaging China". He was talking about Red China folks, the same Red China with a terrible human rights record and a bright Red Communist government. That didn't matter, he said. Ignoring and isolating enemies doesn't work, he said.
You can argue whether the US and China should have a spiffy trade relationship but you can't deny behind it all is economic self-interest.
So, class, is it right for Russia/France to continue to maintain and promote economic ties to Iraq, given Iraq's record? And is it right for the U.S. to do the same with China?
Pop quiz tomorrow.
France and Russia have an economic relationship with Iraq that ignores Iraq's bad side. "Show me da money", they say.
Back in the days of Bush v1.0, GHWB often talked about "engaging China". He was talking about Red China folks, the same Red China with a terrible human rights record and a bright Red Communist government. That didn't matter, he said. Ignoring and isolating enemies doesn't work, he said.
You can argue whether the US and China should have a spiffy trade relationship but you can't deny behind it all is economic self-interest.
So, class, is it right for Russia/France to continue to maintain and promote economic ties to Iraq, given Iraq's record? And is it right for the U.S. to do the same with China?
Pop quiz tomorrow.
Do you think people are surprised by the allegation (well-founded) that Europeans, particularly French and Russians, are hypocritical?!? 
It's a fact, not controversy.
France wants to sell more weapons and defy the United States so they can puff themselves up. Russia wants to sell more weapons and defy the United States for historical purposes and to gain some leverage for having the U.S. ignore what they're doing in Chechnya.
It's a fact, not controversy.France wants to sell more weapons and defy the United States so they can puff themselves up. Russia wants to sell more weapons and defy the United States for historical purposes and to gain some leverage for having the U.S. ignore what they're doing in Chechnya.
we used to have the newsweek subscribed and I think newsweek is notorious for unreflected opioinated writing when they want to push a certain opinion.
How is this hypocrisy? Hypocrisy is going along with these sanctions which everyone except US and UK believes are at best a hinderance to free trade and at worst an atrocity.
It's not hypocrisy to openly act in your own self interest, and not make a charade for US consumption.
Countries act in their own interest all the time. If Russia does business with Iraq, Russia benefits and Iraq benefits. Its a win win, so they make a deal. Seems reasonable to me. Russia doesn't see Iraq as a threat, because it isn't to them. Iraqis don't hate the Russians, because Russians aren't killing Iraqis. Why should they give up much needed foreign trade with a country they have strong economic ties with?
It's not hypocrisy to openly act in your own self interest, and not make a charade for US consumption.
Countries act in their own interest all the time. If Russia does business with Iraq, Russia benefits and Iraq benefits. Its a win win, so they make a deal. Seems reasonable to me. Russia doesn't see Iraq as a threat, because it isn't to them. Iraqis don't hate the Russians, because Russians aren't killing Iraqis. Why should they give up much needed foreign trade with a country they have strong economic ties with?
There is no doubt that France and Russia are only thinking about their own selfinterest and they learned that from the master: the US of A.
You want to talk about hypocrisy?
1)GWB is always talking about free trade but when the old American steel mills can't compete with the rest of the world he's imposing trade barriers. Did he asked the opinion of the WTO, the EU, Japan, Brasil??? That's unilaterism and hypocrisy
2)in the article the author is focusing on the military cooperation between Iraq and France/ Russia. Well, the USA was the BIGGEST ally of Saddam and encouraged him to use poison gas against Iran in the Iraq/Iran war. See also the cooperation between the CIA and Osama bin Laden, how funny, the Taliban was shooting Stinger rockets paid with your american tax dollars.
3)The USA is always talking about human rights but if they can make a dollar in China all of the sudden the issue is not that important anymore.
4)International justice and tribunals. Well the USA was and is very supportive for the Yugoslavia tribunal in The Hague but when there are talks about an international court againt war crimes suddenly they are threatening a long time ally with military action (The Netherlands) if an American soldier should appear before such a court. Way to go GWB -- threatening your allies with military action --
are the Russians hypocrits?? YES
The French?? You bet they are
The Americans?? The biggest of them all
disclaimer: when I am talking about French, Americans, Russians i'm not talking about the american people, russian people, ... just their policy.
no, this is flamebait:
america sucks
*dons flame retardent trousers and coat*
*enables flame to cash machine*
*reels em in*
america sucks
*dons flame retardent trousers and coat*
*enables flame to cash machine*
*reels em in*
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
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Originally posted by: BennyD
no, this is flamebait: america sucks *dons flame retardent trousers and coat* *enables flame to cash machine* *reels em in*
John Ashcroft wants to talk to you.
in the past century europe has always shyed away from conflict. remeber what happened when europe ignored hitler in the late 1930's
whatever man.....those news sources are as neutral as the british soccer fans!
check this out!!!!
Luckily for me, I speak a few languages which enables me to read more news from around the world. Non-English language media tends to get less notice from our American-centric media so here is how two stories about the same "facts" can be written differently.
The English version is from Yahoo (story from AP Press): http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020927/ap_wo_en_po/israel_palestinians_7192
Spanish version is from El Pais (leading national paper in Spain): http://www.elpais.es/articulo.html?...20020927elpepuint_1&type=Tes&anchor=elpepupor
AP story: "GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israel confirmed Friday that the top Hamas bombmaker survived an Israeli airstrike aimed at killing him, an operation that wounded 35 bystanders, including 15 children"
It's never mentioned in the AP article what kind of airstrike it was at all. It just says it occurred in "Gaza City, Gaza Strip".
El Pais: "La operación se llevó a cabo en el barrio del Jeque Raduan, uno de los más densamente poblados de Gaza. Varios testigos aseguraron que momentos que aparecieron en el cielo tres helicópteros de combate Apache, que lanzaron tres misiles sobre un vehículo de color verde."
(translation mine or you can plug it into one ofhose translation services---either way the stories report two different facts on the same story....talk about facts from the news!!!!) "The operation was carried out in the neighborhood of Jeque Raduan, one of the most densely populated (neighborhoods) in Gaza (City). Numerous witnesses stated that three COMBAT APACHE HELICOPTERS appeared in the sky and fired THREE MISSILES at a green vehicle". (emphasis mine).
AP Press: "In other developments, in a pre-dawn raid Friday, Israeli soldiers shot and killed an armed Hamas militant, Mohammed Yarmour, 21, in the West Bank city of Hebron, Palestinian witnesses and hospital officials said. The army said troops shot him after he opened fire on them with a pistol as they were approaching his house. "
Sounds like Israel is cracking down on Hamas right? Read the Spanish:
El Pais: "Mientras tanto, las operaciones de castigo continúan. Efectivos del Ejército israelí han matado hoy en la ciudad cisjordana de Hebrón a Mohamed Yarmur, un combatiente de Hamás de 21 años. Yarmur fue sorprendido y cercado en su domicilio por los soldados, quienes le dispararon cuando intentó huir."
(translation mine) - "Meanwhile, the punishment operations continued. Israeli soliders in the West Bank city of Hebron today killed Mohamed Yarmur, a 21 year old Hamas combatant. Yamur was surprised and surrounded in his house by soliders, who shot him when he tried to flee".
Food for thought my friends!
check this out!!!!
Luckily for me, I speak a few languages which enables me to read more news from around the world. Non-English language media tends to get less notice from our American-centric media so here is how two stories about the same "facts" can be written differently.
The English version is from Yahoo (story from AP Press): http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020927/ap_wo_en_po/israel_palestinians_7192
Spanish version is from El Pais (leading national paper in Spain): http://www.elpais.es/articulo.html?...20020927elpepuint_1&type=Tes&anchor=elpepupor
AP story: "GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israel confirmed Friday that the top Hamas bombmaker survived an Israeli airstrike aimed at killing him, an operation that wounded 35 bystanders, including 15 children"
It's never mentioned in the AP article what kind of airstrike it was at all. It just says it occurred in "Gaza City, Gaza Strip".
El Pais: "La operación se llevó a cabo en el barrio del Jeque Raduan, uno de los más densamente poblados de Gaza. Varios testigos aseguraron que momentos que aparecieron en el cielo tres helicópteros de combate Apache, que lanzaron tres misiles sobre un vehículo de color verde."
(translation mine or you can plug it into one ofhose translation services---either way the stories report two different facts on the same story....talk about facts from the news!!!!) "The operation was carried out in the neighborhood of Jeque Raduan, one of the most densely populated (neighborhoods) in Gaza (City). Numerous witnesses stated that three COMBAT APACHE HELICOPTERS appeared in the sky and fired THREE MISSILES at a green vehicle". (emphasis mine).
AP Press: "In other developments, in a pre-dawn raid Friday, Israeli soldiers shot and killed an armed Hamas militant, Mohammed Yarmour, 21, in the West Bank city of Hebron, Palestinian witnesses and hospital officials said. The army said troops shot him after he opened fire on them with a pistol as they were approaching his house. "
Sounds like Israel is cracking down on Hamas right? Read the Spanish:
El Pais: "Mientras tanto, las operaciones de castigo continúan. Efectivos del Ejército israelí han matado hoy en la ciudad cisjordana de Hebrón a Mohamed Yarmur, un combatiente de Hamás de 21 años. Yarmur fue sorprendido y cercado en su domicilio por los soldados, quienes le dispararon cuando intentó huir."
(translation mine) - "Meanwhile, the punishment operations continued. Israeli soliders in the West Bank city of Hebron today killed Mohamed Yarmur, a 21 year old Hamas combatant. Yamur was surprised and surrounded in his house by soliders, who shot him when he tried to flee".
Food for thought my friends!
Any media that shows a Pro-American slant is biased and a propoganda tool.
Any media that shows an Anti-American slant is accurate, enlightened and brave.
No one is claiming America isn't hypocritical or the master of self interests. Of course it is. Duh.
But so is nearly every nation on earth. So, why do they scream and moan about American hypocrisy
when they have enough of thier own to worry about? Because America can throw it's hypocritical, self-interested policies
around better than any nation on the face of the earth by a longshot. That is what really pisses them off.
For example, when Russia actually had any power or military prestige to speak of they weren't very interested in fairness or international law.
Now, thier only source of real power is political: a permanant seat and veto power in UN Security Council. So, of course, now they embrace it fully.
Power and influence only bother those that have little to none.
Any media that shows an Anti-American slant is accurate, enlightened and brave.
No one is claiming America isn't hypocritical or the master of self interests. Of course it is. Duh.
But so is nearly every nation on earth. So, why do they scream and moan about American hypocrisy
when they have enough of thier own to worry about? Because America can throw it's hypocritical, self-interested policies
around better than any nation on the face of the earth by a longshot. That is what really pisses them off.
For example, when Russia actually had any power or military prestige to speak of they weren't very interested in fairness or international law.
Now, thier only source of real power is political: a permanant seat and veto power in UN Security Council. So, of course, now they embrace it fully.
Power and influence only bother those that have little to none.
FrancesBeansRevenge makes his point, I assume, authoritatively from personal experience, which might explain why he and his type miss altogether another source of criticism. The power holder who not only has power, but has the capacity to feel his power, that is to say, the person whose power comes from personal capacity that springs from real love and not a need to surround, cover and mask ancient feelings of inferiority, i.e. someone who has no pride, hubris, egotism, or gloating self-satisfied exhibitionistic need to display that power like a peacock in the marketplace, but rather struggles always with questions of ultimate justice. You will always find the critique of those armed with a sense of justice in the market place of ideas. Strive for an inner state from whence you can tell who is who.
Ageed. Then hopefully you shouldn't have any complaints when the US acts in its own self-interest.
Try as you might you cannot pigeon hole me. Perhaps you should take some more psych classes.
I have no power. I am about as powerless as a human being can be. I've never been anyones boss. I've never had a child or a younger sibling.
No one's livelyhood depends on me in any way. I don't even vote. The only power I hold is over myself and I am a pushover so I don't get to flex my muscles very often
I am a person with zero power and influence who does not resent those with it. Better them than me anyway.
I would rather only be responsible for fscking up my own life.
I simply sit on the sidelines where it's nice and safe and throw my meaningless, self-serving and unapologetically biased (and most probably wrong), opinion into the masses of meaningless opinions.
But, but, but, I thought you were a dangerous sociopath.
"Try as you might you cannot pigeon hole me. Perhaps you should take some more psych classes."
AHAHAHAHA. That's a good one. Try as I might, you think you can pigeon hole me. Hehe. I can't take 'more' psych classes because I've never taken 'any'.
"Try as you might you cannot pigeon hole me. Perhaps you should take some more psych classes."
AHAHAHAHA. That's a good one. Try as I might, you think you can pigeon hole me. Hehe. I can't take 'more' psych classes because I've never taken 'any'.
I am only as dangerous as my imagination lets me be.
98% of everything that I think and/or say is bullshit and the 2% that isn't I keep to myself.
I am glad you caught the irony in that statement. It wasn't unintentional. Afterall, the subject of this thread is hypocrisy.
We are all shameless hypocrites. Every one of us. Except moonbeam because he is enlightened and beyond the human condition. Is it harder to breath rare air?
Yup I know you intended to lie about the irony being intentional.
And no, like everything I do, breathing rare air is a snap. Everything is easy when you're perfect. But thanks for asking.
One question of my own: You are obviously worthless, right? You explain that over and over. My question is why? You're not really worth your own response, right? Why do you make them?
And no, like everything I do, breathing rare air is a snap. Everything is easy when you're perfect. But thanks for asking.
One question of my own: You are obviously worthless, right? You explain that over and over. My question is why? You're not really worth your own response, right? Why do you make them?
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup I know you intended to lie about the irony being intentional.
And no, like everything I do, breathing rare air is a snap. Everything is easy when you're perfect. But thanks for asking.
One question of my own: You are obviously worthless, right? You explain that over and over. My question is why? You're not really worth your own response, right? Why do you make them?
If it isn't how moonbeam sees it, or needs it to be, it must be a lie, biased, or goverment propaganda.
I post in weak attempts to amuse myself and/or convince myself or others that I care about something... anything.
Save a space for me on the train Søren, save a space for me on the train.
My dear moonbeam,
You have certainly shown your 'superiority' over me yet you still come off as a tryhard.
You are better and more evolved. B-E-T-T-E-R and more E-V-O-L-V-E-D.
Is that direct enough to satisfy your need?
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