European Farmers Must Keep their Pigs Emotionally Happy

[bfdd]

So just to be clear you think torturing a dog should not be a punishable offense? Even though I disagree with you, it is consistent with the pig debate.

Of course torturing a dog should be a punishable offense. Although I don't consider bleeding out an animal for slaughter torture either.

 

[Infohawk]

Of course torturing a dog should be a punishable offense. Although I don't consider bleeding out an animal for slaughter torture either.

(For the record that question was specifically directed to Cyclowizard.)

According to your logic, it shouldn't matter since dogs don't have emotions. Or do you really think that dogs have emotions and that pigs do not?

 

[bfdd]

(For the record that question was specifically directed to Cyclowizard.)

According to your logic, it shouldn't matter since dogs don't have emotions. Or do you really think that dogs have emotions and that pigs do not?

While both animals have been crucial to our development, dogs have put in work where as pigs were food sources. It really isn't right to compare poor treatment of the two because they should and do have vastly differing definitions. Dogs are, imo, more like relatives to us humans. We've been through some shit together and dogs haven't turned on us yet.

This isn't to say pigs and other animals we use for food shouldn't be respected, we just shouldn't treat them the same as we do other animals. For instance horses carry significantly more value than a pig. Sure we don't need horses as much as we used to and they have been food stuffs(and still are), but the work they have done for us in the past has paid for their place.

 

[Infohawk]

While both animals have been crucial to our development, dogs have put in work where as pigs were food sources. It really isn't right to compare poor treatment of the two because they should and do have vastly differing definitions. Dogs are, imo, more like relatives to us humans. We've been through some shit together and dogs haven't turned on us yet.

Again, you're assuming we have some moral obligation to dogs that we don't have to pigs. Why? Just because we USUALLY eat pigs and USUALLY keep dogs as pets? There are people that eat dogs and there are people that keep pigs as pets.

 

[bfdd]

Again, you're assuming we have some moral obligation to dogs that we don't have to pigs. Why? Just because we USUALLY eat pigs and USUALLY keep dogs as pets? There are people that eat dogs and there are people that keep pigs as pets.

Look I'm breaking down how I rank animals that deserve my respect. Pigs are pretty high up on that list btw, whereas things like shitty ass mountain goats are pretty fucking low. Dogs put in thousands of years of work for humans, whereas pigs put in thousands of years of food stuffs in our bellies. Yes pigs have been used in some awesome ways, like skin grafts for example, but they are still primarily a food source. Dogs could become a food source over time, I don't have an issue with eating dog(it's actually one of the reasons I want to head over to Korea), but to equate how we treat dogs to how we treat a farm animal that was bred for slaughter? please... the only reason the pig exists is to be my food, it deserves as much respect as it can get for that which is not living in a shit hole, not eating shit and not being beat every day.

Bleeding them out before slaughter doesn't fly in the face of that, nor do I view it as torturous. Dying sucks, but something has to die for me to be fed.

How do you feel about treating plants poorly? Do you not believe corporate farming and their big machinery is ok? you don't think the plants are tortured enough? we rip them right out of the ground slaughtering them in quite brutal fashion. Oh does it not matter though? Please...

 

[Infohawk]

Look I'm breaking down how I rank animals that deserve my respect. Pigs are pretty high up on that list btw, whereas things like shitty ass mountain goats are pretty fucking low. Dogs put in thousands of years of work for humans, whereas pigs put in thousands of years of food stuffs in our bellies. Yes pigs have been used in some awesome ways, like skin grafts for example, but they are still primarily a food source. Dogs could become a food source over time, I don't have an issue with eating dog(it's actually one of the reasons I want to head over to Korea), but to equate how we treat dogs to how we treat a farm animal that was bred for slaughter? please... the only reason the pig exists is to be my food, it deserves as much respect as it can get for that which is not living in a shit hole, not eating shit and not being beat every day.

Bleeding them out before slaughter doesn't fly in the face of that, nor do I view it as torturous. Dying sucks, but something has to die for me to be fed.

How do you feel about treating plants poorly? Do you not believe corporate farming and their big machinery is ok? you don't think the plants are tortured enough? we rip them right out of the ground slaughtering them in quite brutal fashion. Oh does it not matter though? Please...

Your respect is arbitrary. And if that's the way it works then you shouldn't mind some money making pigs a bit happier since you recognize they have made important contributions to humans. Right? We take dogs to parks and give them surgeries. If pigs are high on your list why not give them a little hay to chill on?

I think we already went over the plants. Plants don't have brains and therefore they don't have emotions. Pigs and dogs both do. Unlike you I'm being consistent. If you have a mammalian brain you deserve some animal welfare protection.

 

[bfdd]

I had no issue with the hay/straw/whatever Infohawk, I specifically came into this thread and started talking about "happiness" and how fucking stupid it is to try and quantify such a thing with other animals because it is merely projection of human feelings/emotions onto animals that simply cannot think/feel that way.

Also, who the fuck are you to say plants don't have emotions? Can this be proven? It's been proven certain plants can feel pain, not to mention they are LIVING THINGS. YOU are now the one setting arbitrary rules to what is ok to mistreat and what isn't ok to mistreat. Life is life, it doesn't matter if it can think or not, you're either ok with ending it or you're not(in which case you're a moron).

 

[Infohawk]

I had no issue with the hay/straw/whatever Infohawk, I specifically came into this thread and started talking about "happiness" and how fucking stupid it is to try and quantify such a thing with other animals because it is merely projection of human feelings/emotions onto animals that simply cannot think/feel that way.

Also, who the fuck are you to say plants don't have emotions? Can this be proven? It's been proven certain plants can feel pain, not to mention they are LIVING THINGS. YOU are now the one setting arbitrary rules to what is ok to mistreat and what isn't ok to mistreat. Life is life, it doesn't matter if it can think or not, you're either ok with ending it or you're not(in which case you're a moron).

Sounds like you're getting pretty frustrated... Maybe you want to take a step back and chill out?

First of all, you don't seem to have a grasp of basic mammalian biology. We know that emotions come from certain parts of the brain and that these parts are shared with mammals. This is why pet dogs are much more popular than pet ants. Dogs have emotions. Most people don't like hurting animals that have emotions like we do. Why? Because they have empathy. It's sad when an animal is suffering. It's not about some (poor) rationalization about dogs being more worthy of respect. Do you really think a little girl likes a dog because it's ancestors helped us on farms? Of course not.

There is no evidence that plants have emotion. (Do you really not understand that emotions come from the brain?) Plants don't have brains. It's that simple. If you want to state they do, then the burden is on you to prove that they do.

"you're either ok with ending it or you're not(in which case you're a moron"
Totally irrelevant. I've already said I'm fine with killing mammals to eat. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about how they're treated when they're alive.

 

[Fern]

I'm a little ambivalent about this.

On the one hand, I support treating animals, even those destined for slaughter, humanely. I've seen vid of sadistic @ssholes pushing cattle around with a forklift etc and it really angers me. I see no reason to torture animals - PERIOD.

But they're pushing a bit further than that now. Now we're into the 'happiness zone'. OK, a bit of straw is no real biggie, but will they stop there?

Fern

 

[bfdd]

Frustrated? Please, I'm just vulgar.

Also, the emotions that we understand come from our brains, who are you to say other living life forms don't have other ways of expressing/understanding emotion? Isn't this the whole base of your argument for pigs? Like I said, they are still living and some plants have been proven to feel pain. If they can feel pain, why can't they interpret it in some way we haven't figured out yet? Ever tended a garden? Seen sick plants try to heal themselves?

Empathy for these animals in which they project human emotion and feelings on... That's what this comes down to. You cannot be empathetic with something that does not share our feelings, emotions, which as you said come from our brain. Sure they might have something similar, we might call it "happiness" but it isn't. It is literally impossible for a pig to have human feelings they are not human. You project because they have mammal eyes and that's it.

Again LIKE I SAID, I am not against treating our food sources well, I am against projecting our human traits on to animals then using that to justify things like "making sure they are happy". That's such non-sense.

 

[Infohawk]

OK, a bit of straw is no real biggie, but will they stop there?

Fern

Probably not. I think the ideal arrangement is like with a traditional farm before industrialization. The animal eats "natural" food stuffs, can roam around within an enclosed but fairly large area, and gets killed quickly and humanely. Granted, this is just an ideal.

Obviously vegetarians would go further, but my argument to them would be that most of these animals wouldn't even exist if they weren't intended to be eaten (or they would be eaten by wild animals eventually). I don't think we need to treat them like pets but let them live something that resembles their natural habitat: rummaging in the dirt and plants with access to their kind.

If it weren't for a ravenous third-world that is probably about a 100 years back from where we are on animal welfare, I think this is where we would be headed in the natural course of things.

 

[bfdd]

Infohawk, we don't seem to be disagreeing on the animals should be treated better than being shoved in gestation crates and have terrible foodstuffs shoved down their throats. We just seem to be disagreeing on philosophical reasons. Again I apologize if I come off as hostile or angry, believe me I couldn't possibly care any less I am just a vulgar/offensive individual when it comes to my language.

 

[Infohawk]

Also, the emotions that we understand come from our brains, who are you to say other living life forms don't have other ways of expressing/understanding emotion? Isn't this the whole base of your argument for pigs? Like I said, they are still living and some plants have been proven to feel pain. If they can feel pain, why can't they interpret it in some way we haven't figured out yet? Ever tended a garden? Seen sick plants try to heal themselves?

Empathy for these animals in which they project human emotion and feelings on... That's what this comes down to. You cannot be empathetic with something that does not share our feelings, emotions, which as you said come from our brain. Sure they might have something similar, we might call it "happiness" but it isn't. It is literally impossible for a pig to have human feelings they are not human. You project because they have mammal eyes and that's it.

The hypothetical plant emotion thing is fairly silly. What if every step I take crushes the soul of a being from another dimension and causes it horrible pain? I have no evidence for that so I'm not worried about it. Similarly, there is no evidence for plants feeling pain so I'm not worried about it. Plants react to external stimuli, just like bacteria do, it doesn't mean they have emotions. Meanwhile, we have dissected and studied the tissues of mammals and dead humans and seen that the structures in the brain are remarkably similar in similar areas. This is evidence. (Moreover, most people can just interact with mammals and understand they have emotions.) There is no projection.

Do you think dogs have emotions of pain, sadness, excitement, etc?

 

[bfdd]

I believe dogs share similar emotions to us, but not our emotions. I believe I have stated this, but just because plants do not share similar make up or express emotion as we know it does not mean they do not feel pain and/or have those things. Studies have gone on that show plants do feel pain and are aware of their surroundings.

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/plants/news-feeling-plants-how-sensitive-flora click next near the images to continue through the article.

I believe there is quite a lot of projection of human traits on to animals, especially when it comes to things like this. I have not denied that these animals can feel some emotion or have thought, simply that it isn't relative.

 

[Moonbeam]

Give Wilber some straw you assholes.

 

[lothar]

So just to be clear you think torturing a dog should not be a punishable offense? Even though I disagree with you, it is consistent with the pig debate.

If the dog has an owner, then it is considered property.
Yes, I think if you break my car window it should be a punishable offense.
Similarly, if you kick my dog or torture it, that also should be a punishable offense.

or maybe another way to put it is this:
If the dog isn't yours, then yes it should be a punishable offense.

The only person who wouldn't agree to that is Spidey(who we already know is dumber than a box of rocks anyway).

Speaking of "torture" since you brought it up, if that was illegal, then shock collars and electric fences shouldn't exist.

 

[lothar]

Requiring farmers to provide straw is hardly an overly burdensome requirement. The fact that it pisses spidey07 off is a bonus

I'm all in favor of the "straw" part since that isn't a stiff requirement.
My problem is the "happiness" part. How are they going to measure this? This seems more like an open ended thing and highly depends on who is doing the regulation. Hello, lobbyists?

Another example:
All employees must be paid at least $7.25/hr. This is easy for businesses to follow.
What if they pass an additional regulation that says "Employees must be kept emotionally happy?". How again are they going to measure this, what will they do with it and how will they enforce this? There are hedge fund millionaires that are not happy, there are people who make six figures(if I recall correctly, ATOT is filled with them), and there are minimum wage earners that are not happy. Money certainly doesn't buy happiness. Can't make any guesses about whether putting a straw in a individual pig cage would make it any happier.

Government keeps making too many open-ended laws and regulations that can depend on who is regulating it and interpreted in a million ways by different lawyers.

 

[Nemesis 1]

This is going to kill the sheep industry

 

[Infohawk]

If the dog isn't yours, then yes it should be a punishable offense.

And what if it is yours?

 

[lothar]

And what if it is yours?

If it's yours, then it's yours.
Shock collars and electric fences torture animals but yet people and governments don't seem to have a problem with it.

 

[Infohawk]

If it's yours, then it's yours.

So you don't believe in animal welfare. I don't really want to debate animal welfare laws here. Most Americans support them. My issue is with people that think only pets deserve animal welfare protection because it's inconsistent in my opinion. If you don't think any animals deserve animal welfare protection you're consistent even if I don't agree with you.

Shock collars and electric fences torture animals but yet people and governments don't seem to have a problem with it.

I do and I'm sure a lot of other people do too. And the goal of those devices is not to torture but to control.

 

[Throckmorton]

Straw costs money, increasing the price of raising animals, increasing the cost of food. This is the drawback of every regulation: it increases the price of the regulated product. This increased burden is obviously felt the most by the poorest.

Are you being serious? The cost of some straw is nothing compared to the cost of the food the pig eats...

 

[Throckmorton]

I believe dogs share similar emotions to us, but not our emotions. I believe I have stated this, but just because plants do not share similar make up or express emotion as we know it does not mean they do not feel pain and/or have those things. Studies have gone on that show plants do feel pain and are aware of their surroundings.

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/plants/news-feeling-plants-how-sensitive-flora click next near the images to continue through the article.

I believe there is quite a lot of projection of human traits on to animals, especially when it comes to things like this. I have not denied that these animals can feel some emotion or have thought, simply that it isn't relative.

The emotions that a dog or a pig feels are probably similar to a human baby's.

Of course we have people who think it's humane to circumcise a human baby with no anesthesia "because he won't remember it".

 

[bfdd]

The emotions that a dog or a pig feels are probably similar to a human baby's.

Of course we have people who think it's humane to circumcise a human baby with no anesthesia "because he won't remember it".

It's similar,but not the same. They do not have the same brain, even if things are similar, so they can not possibly be the same. Not to mention what worth is an emotion if the animal doesn't actually comprehend what it feels? I am not condoning the poor treatment of animals, I just think this whole emotion/feelings bullshit when it comes to animals is just projection and it's stupid.

 

[CycloWizard]

Are you being serious? The cost of some straw is nothing compared to the cost of the food the pig eats...

Is straw free? I don't think so. You're arguing in degrees against a categorical statement, so you're simply wrong.