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Europe and Muslims

Emrtr4

Junior Member
Jul 31, 2006
7
0
0
I am an American who travels frequently. Just last week I was in England and Denmark, and was in Italy and France earlier in the year.

We have a big immigration problem in the US with illegal immigrants from Latin American nations, primarily Mexico. I believe that they are a blessing in disguise as they are mainly hardworking, family oriented, kind people who only want to better themselves. We as American's should do everything we can to assimulate them into our society as their work ethic may help us combat the Chinese, but thats for another post.

When I was in Denmark I found that all of the members of the homogenous population hate the Muslims. Whether it was my Danish taxi driver, tour guides, business associates, shop keeps, or many other members of the population. They claim that they do not like them because they do not work and just live off of the social welfare systems that most socialized European nations have.

France has a massive problem with this as they refuse to allow the Muslims to assimulate into their society, and thus the muslims must create a sub culture that maintains many aspects of their old nations. Remember the French riots, these are the reasons for them.


Yet, then what I do not understand is why are the Europeans so pro Palestinian, Iranian, and Lebanese? The French, Danes, and all Europeans have far more in common with the democratic nation of ISreal than they ever will with the near dictatorships of nations like Iran.

If the Europeans do not like the muslims, then why does the European Media make up stories about fake Lebanese deaths simply to flame Isreal? I am not Jewish, but I am an American and to me it simply does not make any sense.

Europe needs to fix its problems, but it is rediculous and hypocritical for Europe to condem Isreal for its actions in the middle east as overly aggressive or violent if nations like France, Germany, and Belgium have done nothing but colonize, pillage, and now discriminate against members of Islam. A muslim would be treated better in the streets of Isreal than they ever would be in the streets of Paris (trust me, I have been to both).
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,427
10
81
Europeans are so confused they don't know what to believe of support. It comes from being bleeding heart liberals. They do what makes them feel good even though the results are not desirable....hence their Muslim problem. They bitch about it but they keep letting the leeches destroy their countries. It must have something to do with their ideas sounding great in theory but being disasterous in practive yet they don't have the fortitude to solve the problem because that would conflict with their liberal ideals. Quite the conundrum for them. They are going to pay a heavy price in the end.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,072
1
0
Originally posted by: Emrtr4
I am an American who travels frequently. Just last week I was in England and Denmark, and was in Italy and France earlier in the year.

We have a big immigration problem in the US with illegal immigrants from Latin American nations, primarily Mexico. I believe that they are a blessing in disguise as they are mainly hardworking, family oriented, kind people who only want to better themselves. We as American's should do everything we can to assimulate them into our society as their work ethic may help us combat the Chinese, but thats for another post.

When I was in Denmark I found that all of the members of the homogenous population hate the Muslims. Whether it was my Danish taxi driver, tour guides, business associates, shop keeps, or many other members of the population. They claim that they do not like them because they do not work and just live off of the social welfare systems that most socialized European nations have.

France has a massive problem with this as they refuse to allow the Muslims to assimulate into their society, and thus the muslims must create a sub culture that maintains many aspects of their old nations. Remember the French riots, these are the reasons for them.


Yet, then what I do not understand is why are the Europeans so pro Palestinian, Iranian, and Lebanese? The French, Danes, and all Europeans have far more in common with the democratic nation of ISreal than they ever will with the near dictatorships of nations like Iran.

If the Europeans do not like the muslims, then why does the European Media make up stories about fake Lebanese deaths simply to flame Isreal? I am not Jewish, but I am an American and to me it simply does not make any sense.

Europe needs to fix its problems, but it is rediculous and hypocritical for Europe to condem Isreal for its actions in the middle east as overly aggressive or violent if nations like France, Germany, and Belgium have done nothing but colonize, pillage, and now discriminate against members of Islam. A muslim would be treated better in the streets of Isreal than they ever would be in the streets of Paris (trust me, I have been to both).

I don't know where you are from, but all i hear about from americans is that they hate mexicans because they run drugs, are lazy and life off welfare, and are destroying american culture. Doesn't sound so different.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,520
0
0
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Europeans are so confused they don't know what to believe of support. It comes from being bleeding heart liberals. They do what makes them feel good even though the results are not desirable....hence their Muslim problem. They bitch about it but they keep letting the leeches destroy their countries. It must have something to do with their ideas sounding great in theory but being disasterous in practive yet they don't have the fortitude to solve the problem because that would conflict with their liberal ideals. Quite the conundrum for them. They are going to pay a heavy price in the end.
I think a big problem with Europe is that they aren't really sure if they are liberal or conservative. It's not a problem with being bleeding heart liberals so much as it is a problem of taking the worst of both political ideas. They have the bleeding heart aspect of liberalism without (apparently) the ability to find a good balance point between socialism and social darwinism, the way the left has in the US...and they totally lack the left's respect for civil liberties. But at the same time they have the authoritarian, jingoistic and social isolationism of conservatives without the same kind of free market supported by US conservatives.

It's just not a very good combination. You end up with social welfare systems that drag down the economy while doing little to help the poor combined with a police state mentality (England is by far the worst offender there) and a culture that discourages outsiders...not exactly a system conducive to smooth integration of different people.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,414
0
0
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Europeans are so confused they don't know what to believe of support. It comes from being bleeding heart liberals. They do what makes them feel good even though the results are not desirable....hence their Muslim problem. They bitch about it but they keep letting the leeches destroy their countries. It must have something to do with their ideas sounding great in theory but being disasterous in practive yet they don't have the fortitude to solve the problem because that would conflict with their liberal ideals. Quite the conundrum for them. They are going to pay a heavy price in the end.
Immigration, minorities, and other related matters are dealt with an extreme far-right view in Europe.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,387
140
116
Illegal Latin Americans in my state are causing problems by overloading our health care system. In other states, they run drugs, form street gangs, and live off government money. There are also many other 'welfare' cultures in America that involve other groups like African Americans.

Here's a better question; why are we discussing European issues when we have a million issues to deal with in our own country? Are Muslims just a hot topic right now? Or maybe we're discussing European Muslims because all the ones in the States are doctors and engineers.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,520
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Illegal Latin Americans in my state are causing problems by overloading our health care system. In other states, they run drugs, form street gangs, and live off government money. There are also many other 'welfare' cultures in America that involve other groups like African Americans.

Here's a better question; why are we discussing European issues when we have a million issues to deal with in our own country? Are Muslims just a hot topic right now? Or maybe we're discussing European Muslims because all the ones in the States are doctors and engineers.
I think it has a lot to do with what you said...Muslim bashing is the hot thing right now and American Muslims just don't make very good targets.

Of course you might remember that point when complaining about Latin Americans and African Americans. It's true, a disproportionate number of them are involved in those kinds of activities, but many, if not most, of them are contributing members of society...it's not so much a racial issue as it is a social one.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,414
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Illegal Latin Americans in my state are causing problems by overloading our health care system. In other states, they run drugs, form street gangs, and live off government money. There are also many other 'welfare' cultures in America that involve other groups like African Americans.

Here's a better question; why are we discussing European issues when we have a million issues to deal with in our own country? Are Muslims just a hot topic right now? Or maybe we're discussing European Muslims because all the ones in the States are doctors and engineers.
What a silly question. One can easily discuss multiple issues. What's next, a call to prevent discussion on genocide in Sudan or any other non-American topic?

Where did many of the 9/11 hijackers become radicalised? Europe, the land of oppression. It has become an issue which affects the US.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,387
140
116
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Illegal Latin Americans in my state are causing problems by overloading our health care system. In other states, they run drugs, form street gangs, and live off government money. There are also many other 'welfare' cultures in America that involve other groups like African Americans.

Here's a better question; why are we discussing European issues when we have a million issues to deal with in our own country? Are Muslims just a hot topic right now? Or maybe we're discussing European Muslims because all the ones in the States are doctors and engineers.
I think it has a lot to do with what you said...Muslim bashing is the hot thing right now and American Muslims just don't make very good targets.

Of course you might remember that point when complaining about Latin Americans and African Americans. It's true, a disproportionate number of them are involved in those kinds of activities, but many, if not most, of them are contributing members of society...it's not so much a racial issue as it is a social one.
Even so, I don't see many forum members calling out for a final solution Hitler style against Latins or Blacks, but I see a few too many (even if said jokingly) call outs for "glass parking lots", detention, internment. People get up in arms over the Seattle shooting but don't even blink when a MS13 gangbanger plugs two teenagers in a drive by.

We invest all our energies into conflicts half a world away and we lose our own streets right beneath our feet.
 

Mardeth

Platinum Member
Jul 24, 2002
2,609
0
0
I can only talk of the scandinavian situation. It is true that many get pissed of about people moving in and doing nothing but hanging around and living off the SS, me included. For Finland at least muslims arent the problem really since there arent very many of them and the ones we have seem to behave pretty well. The bigger problem are the africans. There are a lot of them and they many times dont do anything, only use our money to live. Also the crime rate among them is huge. Especially in the capital. Id say, give them a limit to find work and if they are convicted of crime that results in jail time, send them home.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,387
140
116
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Illegal Latin Americans in my state are causing problems by overloading our health care system. In other states, they run drugs, form street gangs, and live off government money. There are also many other 'welfare' cultures in America that involve other groups like African Americans.

Here's a better question; why are we discussing European issues when we have a million issues to deal with in our own country? Are Muslims just a hot topic right now? Or maybe we're discussing European Muslims because all the ones in the States are doctors and engineers.
What a silly question. One can easily discuss multiple issues. What's next, a call to prevent discussion on genocide in Sudan or any other non-American topic?

Where did many of the 9/11 hijackers become radicalised? Europe, the land of oppression. It has become an issue which affects the US.
Smoking affects the US and kills more civilians than dozens of 9/11s. Let's discuss that in the next thread.

There are a dozen things that over the last five years have killed more US civilians per year than Muslim terrorists. Why not make a top ten list and see where the terrorists rank as far as being a threat to US civlians? Would terrorists even make the top ten?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,414
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Illegal Latin Americans in my state are causing problems by overloading our health care system. In other states, they run drugs, form street gangs, and live off government money. There are also many other 'welfare' cultures in America that involve other groups like African Americans.

Here's a better question; why are we discussing European issues when we have a million issues to deal with in our own country? Are Muslims just a hot topic right now? Or maybe we're discussing European Muslims because all the ones in the States are doctors and engineers.
What a silly question. One can easily discuss multiple issues. What's next, a call to prevent discussion on genocide in Sudan or any other non-American topic?

Where did many of the 9/11 hijackers become radicalised? Europe, the land of oppression. It has become an issue which affects the US.
Smoking affects the US and kills more civilians than dozens of 9/11s. Let's discuss that in the next thread.

There are a dozen things that over the last five years have killed more US civilians per year than Muslim terrorists. Why not make a top ten list and see where the terrorists rank as far as being a threat to US civlians? Would terrorists even make the top ten?
I don't think that you understand. Topics of interest and importance to you are not the same topics of interest and importance for someone else.

Perhaps you only think of Americans and what's happening in America. Other people aren't so isolated.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,520
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Illegal Latin Americans in my state are causing problems by overloading our health care system. In other states, they run drugs, form street gangs, and live off government money. There are also many other 'welfare' cultures in America that involve other groups like African Americans.

Here's a better question; why are we discussing European issues when we have a million issues to deal with in our own country? Are Muslims just a hot topic right now? Or maybe we're discussing European Muslims because all the ones in the States are doctors and engineers.
I think it has a lot to do with what you said...Muslim bashing is the hot thing right now and American Muslims just don't make very good targets.

Of course you might remember that point when complaining about Latin Americans and African Americans. It's true, a disproportionate number of them are involved in those kinds of activities, but many, if not most, of them are contributing members of society...it's not so much a racial issue as it is a social one.
Even so, I don't see many forum members calling out for a final solution Hitler style against Latins or Blacks, but I see a few too many (even if said jokingly) call outs for "glass parking lots", detention, internment. People get up in arms over the Seattle shooting but don't even blink when a MS13 gangbanger plugs two teenagers in a drive by.

We invest all our energies into conflicts half a world away and we lose our own streets right beneath our feet.
That's a good point, the threat of violent Muslim extremists, while a problem, is not a domestic issue...and we DO have plenty of domestic problems that are being all but ignored.
 

Gamer X

Banned
Feb 11, 2005
769
0
0
IMO the problem lies with the welfare. It is a bad idea to give anybody money without working. You can always find public service jobs for the unemployed.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Laziness, hard working, honesty, dedication, ethical.
These are all traits that can describe an individual not a race, religion, or nationality.
I have known hard working muslims, mexicans,whites, christians,negros....
I have also known lazy ones.

Right now the Muslim world is getting a black eye because The Islamic extremists are hijacking thier religion.
When descent muslim's finally realize this and stand up for what they believe, this can change.
But if they continue to be silent and/or apologists for actions that are blatently wrong then the killing will never stop.
Stand up and show the world these people do not speak for you or let them slowly drag you into the abyss with them.
 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
1
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Illegal Latin Americans in my state are causing problems by overloading our health care system. In other states, they run drugs, form street gangs, and live off government money. There are also many other 'welfare' cultures in America that involve other groups like African Americans.

Here's a better question; why are we discussing European issues when we have a million issues to deal with in our own country? Are Muslims just a hot topic right now? Or maybe we're discussing European Muslims because all the ones in the States are doctors and engineers.
What a silly question. One can easily discuss multiple issues. What's next, a call to prevent discussion on genocide in Sudan or any other non-American topic?

Where did many of the 9/11 hijackers become radicalised? Europe, the land of oppression. It has become an issue which affects the US.
HUH? Europe is a land of oppression and welfare?

They are radicalized because they choose to be poor and blame it on everyone else.

They choose to move to Europe and then try to MAKE DEMANDS of the Eurpean society.. they come to make waves and force changes and scream that their rights are being denies and that the Euros are racists when they don't give in to their religious demands..
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
2,825
0
0
Originally posted by: Emrtr4
I am an American who travels frequently. Just last week I was in England and Denmark, and was in Italy and France earlier in the year.

We have a big immigration problem in the US with illegal immigrants from Latin American nations, primarily Mexico. I believe that they are a blessing in disguise as they are mainly hardworking, family oriented, kind people who only want to better themselves. We as American's should do everything we can to assimulate them into our society as their work ethic may help us combat the Chinese, but thats for another post.

When I was in Denmark I found that all of the members of the homogenous population hate the Muslims. Whether it was my Danish taxi driver, tour guides, business associates, shop keeps, or many other members of the population. They claim that they do not like them because they do not work and just live off of the social welfare systems that most socialized European nations have.

France has a massive problem with this as they refuse to allow the Muslims to assimulate into their society, and thus the muslims must create a sub culture that maintains many aspects of their old nations. Remember the French riots, these are the reasons for them.


Yet, then what I do not understand is why are the Europeans so pro Palestinian, Iranian, and Lebanese? The French, Danes, and all Europeans have far more in common with the democratic nation of ISreal than they ever will with the near dictatorships of nations like Iran.

If the Europeans do not like the muslims, then why does the European Media make up stories about fake Lebanese deaths simply to flame Isreal? I am not Jewish, but I am an American and to me it simply does not make any sense.

Europe needs to fix its problems, but it is rediculous and hypocritical for Europe to condem Isreal for its actions in the middle east as overly aggressive or violent if nations like France, Germany, and Belgium have done nothing but colonize, pillage, and now discriminate against members of Islam. A muslim would be treated better in the streets of Isreal than they ever would be in the streets of Paris (trust me, I have been to both).
As a dane myself i have a rather strong opinion about this.
In denmark you spoke to mostly uneducated people i guess. But the problem is, there are a lot of immigrants, and many of them are on welfare. Now there are reasons for that. In my opinion, the initial reason is/was the xenophobia that came as the major flow of muslim people started. This is the same as when people opposed blacks to have same rights as white people. Although in a milder degree. It shows in their chance of getting jobs are reduced a bit. Another thing is that some of them are just living off welfare, because they come from a hard society, but a number like 95% of unemployed say the wished to be employed.
And now, the prejudice that they won't work has actually started hurting them, in the same way. This is the problem, and as you heard people are prejudiced.
Things are getting better though, though slowly.

And i don't see what the problem is with siding with the oppressed in the israeli/muslim conflict. It's not like we're racist and don't like muslims like it would seem you do. Besides, we're not even siding with them. I don't like either. But i really dislike what israel is doing, which is in so many ways counteractive to what they want to achieve!

And the french riots had nothing to do with ethnics or religion, it was a result of the fact that the youth had a massive 20ish% unemployment. Any political observer that knows about france can tell you that.

And sure, many european nations pillaged in the olden days, but they were just that, olden days. It's got nothing to do with what's going on in the democratic nations today. (I think CanOWorms will agree with me on this :) )

Well, i don't know about the muslim treated thing in paris, because i haven't been there (i can't remember it anyways), but i've heard some pretty horrible stories from israel. But on the other hand, about 1 million muslims do live in israel. And they are being repressed.
The new airport in israel, signs in hebrew and in english, not a single sign in arab. We have that even in denmark.

And they are not refusing them to be assimilated. It is a combination of problems as stated above, and the fact that it most certainly is a clash of cultures doesn't make it easier. They maybe come from places where the quran is recited 5 times a day for prayer, and i doubt that is ever gonna happen in europe. I'm pissed enough with the fact that we have church bells ringing every hour during the day.

We are still a majority of christians in europe, and most likely we will be for a long time. But they are getting integrated, atleast in denmark. And there it would've been faster if we didn't have the right wing government we have atm.

[edit]
And what story was made up?
You are the one biased against the muslims.

[edit2]
On the other hand, how'd you like denmark?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,683
3,232
126
Originally posted by: Ronstang
Europeans are so confused they don't know what to believe of support. It comes from being bleeding heart liberals. They do what makes them feel good even though the results are not desirable....hence their Muslim problem. They bitch about it but they keep letting the leeches destroy their countries. It must have something to do with their ideas sounding great in theory but being disasterous in practive yet they don't have the fortitude to solve the problem because that would conflict with their liberal ideals. Quite the conundrum for them. They are going to pay a heavy price in the end.
Perhaps they think we are mean dirty neo-cons making up false dilemmas to use against them. Perhaps that end will never come?
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
1
76
Originally posted by: Forsythe
Well, i don't know about the muslim treated thing in paris, because i haven't been there (i can't remember it anyways), but i've heard some pretty horrible stories from israel. But on the other hand, about 1 million muslims do live in israel. And they are being repressed.
The new airport in israel, signs in hebrew and in english, not a single sign in arab. We have that even in denmark.
You don't know how Muslims are treated in Paris but you DO know that the Muslims in Israel are repressed?
The Muslims in Israel - Israeli Arabs - live just like they do in Europe. Same issues, live off the Social Security, have full rights, quitely disliked by the general public and dodge whatever civil duties they dislike. They are not integrating nor they show any will to and are generally left alone by the country, not wishing for any troubles.
See? That's the same. Don't be ignorant.

Anyway, the Muslims are not aspiring to integrate like, for example, Asians are.
Other ethnical groups form communities to strengthen the individuals and help them adjust to the local society, while Muslims don't aspire to integrate. They want to receive whatever the host country has to offer, while preserving their way of life.
Their way of life isn't so well enlightened - look at in-family murders for example.

Europe just received, and will receive its wake up call in form of domestic terrorism.
See all the terror preachers in Britain.

Again, their aim is NOT to integrate and adapt the hosting society culture, behaviour and values.

Those who blame the unemployment rate for riots are just missing the picture. The unemployment is a symptom, not a cause.
The 9/11 hijackers where educated by Western universities and lived long enough in European countries. Some of them were engineers. It's not a matter of job or education. It's their contempt to the western way of life.

Do you have about Vietnamese terrorism? Indian terrorism? Chinese terrorism? You don't. Because they don't have that ill, abusive mentallity.

 

Carlis

Senior member
May 19, 2006
236
0
76
I get so tired of people bashing muslims and other imigrants. When I dont study I usually do ****** work to pay my rent. Many of my co workers are muslims and I can tell you that they usually have a high morale, work hard and care about people around them. Even when I distributed newspapers in the mid winter in Stockholm they would come up to me and ask how much I was making and wether the the company was hiring.
In Stockholm where i live just about every small shop, pizza resturante or hotdog stand is owned by an imigrant. You do the math... Its very hard for them to get a job. Thats the main reson why they are overrepresented as unemployd or criminal. The best thing we can do for our society is to be patient with imigrants, respect them and try to employ them. It will pay off.
On a closer examine the seemingly humanistic enlightened Europe breaks down to a rather split upp society. Xenofobic political parties take place in European parlaments on a regular basis, sometimes taking more than 10%. The percentage that think "the let to many in" is a lot bigger probably.
The truth about this inconsistency you are debating is that you are listening to two different groups. Those who feel that imigration comes with respect and a job and those who just want to throw them all out. Needless to say the first one of this group is also the one who objects to the treatment of arabs in todays world. Its often said that Europe is more humanistic than the USA but its realy only a part of it that (eventually) is.
(Pardon my spelling, this isnt my main language)
 

Trente

Golden Member
Apr 19, 2003
1,750
0
0
Originally posted by: Emrtr4
Yet, then what I do not understand is why are the Europeans so pro Palestinian, Iranian, and Lebanese? The French, Danes, and all Europeans have far more in common with the democratic nation of ISreal than they ever will with the near dictatorships of nations like Iran.
That's an easy one: they want to appease them, they'd do anything in their power to please them. What they fail to realize though, is that this sort of approach contributes nothing to solving these issues; In fact, it is an incentive that would get them the EXACT opposite results of what they wish to achieve.

 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Trente
Originally posted by: Emrtr4
Yet, then what I do not understand is why are the Europeans so pro Palestinian, Iranian, and Lebanese? The French, Danes, and all Europeans have far more in common with the democratic nation of ISreal than they ever will with the near dictatorships of nations like Iran.
That's an easy one: they want to appease them, they'd do anything in their power to please them. What they fail to realize though, is that this sort of approach contributes nothing to solving these issues; In fact, it is an incentive that would get them the EXACT opposite results of what they wish to achieve.
I think europe has been under a bit of a US umbrella since ww2 so they could afford to play the pacifist.
History wise europe has quite a track record for genocide though.
Just saying when push comes to shove will we see the post ww2 europe or the former?
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
35,645
9,270
136
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Trente
Originally posted by: Emrtr4
Yet, then what I do not understand is why are the Europeans so pro Palestinian, Iranian, and Lebanese? The French, Danes, and all Europeans have far more in common with the democratic nation of ISreal than they ever will with the near dictatorships of nations like Iran.
That's an easy one: they want to appease them, they'd do anything in their power to please them. What they fail to realize though, is that this sort of approach contributes nothing to solving these issues; In fact, it is an incentive that would get them the EXACT opposite results of what they wish to achieve.
I think europe has been under a bit of a US umbrella since ww2 so they could afford to play the pacifist.
History wise europe has quite a track record for genocide though.
Just saying when push comes to shove will we see the post ww2 europe or the former?
WWII exorcised a lot of the tensions (mounted from numerous wars/religious conflicts) in Western Europe particularly and the military protection of the US (along with the necessary shedding the last vestiges of their respective colonial empires) from the Soviets enabled them to focus domestically. They decided to take advantage and make business, not war.

That said, the Muslim extremists are poking an extremely dangerous sleeping monster in the eye with a stick. Given Europe's long and very bloody history, 50 years of relative calm and prosperity should not lull anyone into thinking that an overly broad and very violent reponse to a threat like radical Islam is impossible (or even unlikely) should they be pushed too far.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: dahunan
They are radicalized because they choose to be poor and blame it on everyone else.

They choose to move to Europe and then try to MAKE DEMANDS of the Eurpean society.. they come to make waves and force changes and scream that their rights are being denies and that the Euros are racists when they don't give in to their religious demands..
Speaking strictly from my own experience, which is with the situation in Sweden, you're definitely on to something here.
There are two groups of immigrants that are usually not looked favourably on by a lot of the younger(as in, 15-35 or so)people in Sweden.
Muslims, and Latino Americans.
The Muslims are in my experience split into two camps, the not so fundamental ones, and the fundamental ones.
The first camp make very good citizens, they tend to study, work, and live by the Swedish law, basically just being good citizens to the best of their ability, which is really all one can ask.
The second camp are more than likely a minority(no, I haven't got any statistics to prove either way), but a vocal one.
They demand changes or exceptions from laws based on their religion, they demand that their kids be exempt from certain classes, etc, basically they expect Sweden to adapt to them, rather than the other way around.
There's a forum for Swedish Muslims that I read for a while, just to get some understanding, but rather than get some understanding, I just got pissed.
There were topics ranging from sharing tips on how to send their kids to xyz country for strict Muslim upbringing, and still collecting various social benefits from Sweden through loopholes in laws and such, to topics where kids asked how they should explain to their families that they were in love with a non-Muslim, without except answered with "Won't happen" in mostly not so kind words.
Needless to say, I don't think those people should be allowed to stay in Sweden, I welcome anyone who wishes to be a good citizen, the first mentiones group for example, but if they have no intention of being one, they don't belong here.

As for the Latino Americans, I ran into them a lot in School, the gymnasium(which I believe is about the same as high school in the US?) I went to had about 1600 students, I don't know how many were latinos, but they were a definite minority, yet they cause, by a huge margin, the biggest amounts of trouble, from good ole fashion harassment, to stealing, to physical violence, and very few of them ever went to class.
Now, from what I've heard, the reason for this is that most of these are the children of refugees from Pinochet's Chile.
What supposedly happened was that the refugees looked at Sweden as a temporary home, and expected to move back to Chile relatively shortly, and hence never embraced, or even accepted, the Swedish society.
And they transferred this view to their kids, resulting in the situation we have today.

Of course, there are lots of other minorities that cause problems, but those are two major ones that I've noticed.
On a sidenote, I find it interesting that arabs overall seem to be very hard workers, and generally very good at their professions as well.
I've studied/worked with a bunch of them, all very kind people who were very appreciative of what society have to offer, and very keen to give back to that society, far more so than most Swedes.

Oh and on a second sidenote, Sweden isn't particularly religious at all, probably one of the least religious countries in the world(me for example, I've never known a single person who ever goes to church), and just like with the muslims, there are fundamental christians around, and they're not exactly looked upon favourably either.
 

novon

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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My guess is they feel guilty for creating Israel on Palestinian land, so they are nice to them. As for Iranians, they are much more Jewish/European in manner than Arabs, plus most of the ones in Europe are probably intellectuals or well off, and the same with Lebanese since they are more democratic than most muslims states.

But yeah, even with the recent immigration craziness, I think Europe can learn a lot about immigration from the US, where every person has a good chance to make something of themselves.
 

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