Ethernet over power lines - any experience?

[petrusbroder]

I am moving into a new house. The house is built in concrete with a lot of iron in the walls. The house is also quite large - at least 5 rooms are more than 8 m (straight line) from a good possible location for a WiFi AP. The ceiling/floor is also made of concrete.
(Why? I do not know. The house is approx 40 years old, in great shape.
The originial builder was in the building business and dealt mostly with --- concrete ).

I am considering ethernet over power lines. Electrically it should be possible. I would like to purchase the newer system (with the DS2 chip, which promises 200 Mbits/s but which may - in real life - probably give some 30 - 50 MBits/s). I am aware of the security problem, but power line ethernet is not common at all where I live, and the closest neighbor is some 250 m from my house and uses WiFi.

Any ideas? Do you know of any problems?
Does anybody have any experience?
I have realised that electrical noise (such as hair dryers, phone chargers and electrical motors) can slow down the system - I have seen some tests about that.

I am grateful for all constructive comment. I have no problem about configuering networks. I just want to know if this will work OK.

(In my old house I have a 100 Mbit/s ethernet with one WiFi-AP for the portable computers - it works fine ... when I tried a very similar setup in the new house the WiFi worked barely OK for the rooms closest to the AP but the signal was weak or very weak. Changing the antenna improved the signal somewhat but not sufficiently.
Drilling holes in the walls is of course an option, but the walls are very hard ... or the cables will be long and way too visible.)

 

[n0cmonkey]

I looked into it briefly, but the cost was daunting. I think all of the little converter thingies (it's the technical term, ask anyone ) need to be on the same circuit.

 

[bruceb]

Can you run CAT 5 or CAT 6 cables ? ? Just because it was built with Concrete does not mean you can't do it.
Most homes like that will have access space either in the attic or crawl space ... and if there are cinder blocks
they are usually left Void in the same vertical plane as where the electrical outlets are .. and the electrician may
have thought ahead about wiring repairs / upgrades ... he may have run Conduits or even put in extras just for
expansion later ... You could also just run your CAT 5 / CAT 6 using Surface Metal Raceway ... known in the
trade as Wiremold .. not very big and it can be painted and can be had with all types of fittings to go around
obstacles or corners

http://www.wiremold.com/www/consumer/products/metal_raceway/index.asp

 

[cmetz]

petrusbroder, the best solution is to pay a retrofit installer to make it happen. You might be very surprised by what professional retrofit installers can do. This is of course the most expensive option, too.

If that doesn't work, I suggest that you consider the Ethernet-over-phone-line (HomePNA) technology first.

My experience with anything over power lines is that power lines are really poor for carrying signals. You never know what horribly ugly things electricians did behind the walls, and there are a lot of home devices that backfeed noise. It can work, but you're probably better off looking at the phone cables first.

 

[petrusbroder]

Thanks for the comments.
I agree, a retrofit installer would probably be best. Considering the cost of the devices it may also be an option ...
I checked the concrete - it is the "very hard" variety, e.g. I'd have to rent one of the really big hammer drills to make the holes ... the noise is terrible, the dust, etc. However, it is mostly a question of time - and there are six teen agers involved - all of the hooked (up) on the net, three of them playing World of Warcraft, GuildWars etc.. They may accept 2 weeks of "no net" but barely more. Idea: I'll let them do the cleaning: "no cleaning up, no 'net"
I liked the idea of running the cables in the attic - until I saw the attic: nothing more than a very low crawl space - and I can not reach all the needed rooms.

I'll think on - need to decide before Saturday ...

 

[JackMDS]

Wireless can work with a lot of Concrete and walls, it just a matter of more Hardware.

Since good Wireless Routers can be found for about $50, it just a matter of the number of units.

Let say you would need 6 of them to cover the place, still would be much less expensive then any other crafty solution in a Rental.

 

[nweaver]

Indeed, my house is very similar. It is steel framed with 1' thick exterior walls, and chickenwire/cement walls all throughout. It's a smaller home, but I don't seem to have any issues getting wireless through the whole house (ap is pretty central). The signal DOES die as soon as I walk out the door though (and nothing gets in, unless I happen to be right in front of a window)

Try a location or two with the AP, and/or look at using the attic to locate 2-3 AP's around the home for good coverage.

I have never used the Powerline adapters, but I think, as mentioned above, they have to be on the same circuit, i.e. if you can turn off one circuit breaker and have an outlet off everywhere you need one, then you would be fine, I'm not sure about that, but it makes common sense (they are physically isolated)

 

[JackMDS]

The updated power line network standard does not have to be on one circuit. You can get it cover any outlet on the same side of the utility transformer that leads the Electricity into the house.

Depending on the setting, in an Apartment house it would cover more then one apartment. In a residential private neighborhood, it might cover the two (or more) houses that feed from the same pole.

However, Power Line Networking is on the market for 4-5 years, and it never picked up since it is a lame duck (for reasons mentioned above).

The result is the usual Market Catch 22. I.e. if it does not pick up cause it is "No Joy" then less sold and the price remain high.

If a person needs to extend one computer in a house setting that would, need 3-4 WDS units to get their, then a pair of Power Line adaptors might be a less expensive solution.

However, setting Quirky Power line for few computers does not make sense, it is too expensive for what it delivers.

As I posted above few good WDS units (like the Buffalo High Power) would do a better Job and would cost less.

P.S. On the down side, setting a Wireless WDS system needs more configuration work than plugging few adapters.

 

[StormRider]

I am using the Netgear HD Powerline set (which uses the DS2 chip) to connect my Tivo to my network. It's working out pretty well. It replaced an older Homeplug 1.1 network. My home network contains WirelessG, Powerline and Phoneline segments.

The Netgear utility claims that it is seeing link speeds of 70 to 85 mbps but real world throughput is much less for my case. I am getting about the same real world speed as my Wireless G (I was hoping for faster than Wireless G).

Linksys just released their Powerline solutions based on the new Homeplug AV standard. These might be able to handle electrical noise better from the review I read on Tom's Networking web site.

It depends on your house and electrical wiring on how it performs. Some people have great experiences with Powerline networking while others have had horrible experiences.

Very easy to set up. Just plug it in. I have it plugged into a wall outlet next to my Tivo. The Tivo (which has a USB to ethernet adapter) then plugs into the HD Powerline Adapter. Then in my computer room, I have another HD Powerline Adapter unit plugged into a wall and into an ethernet switch/router. From my computer, I start up their utility to find the Powerline HD units. It detected both units. Then I can change the passwords and other parameters from my computer. You have to plug these directly into a wall outlet. Plugging them into a surge protector doesn't work well.

 

[RebateMonger]

I tried HomePNA (telephone line-based networking) in 2002. HPNA Version 2 runs at 11mbps (equivalent to 10Base-T). It seemed pretty reliable. I could play music and videos across the network. There were both PCI and USB-based adapters.

The biggest problem I found was bridging between HPNA and Ethernet networks. I tried using XP Professional to bridge, and ran into constant errors. The System Event Log would fill up with constant "Cable Disconnected" messages. I couldn't find a resolutions. Later, I purchased a dedicated Panasonic HPNA/Ethernet/WiFi bridge box, which worked great. But, by that time, WiFi prices had come down. And those Panasonic boxes are long gone.

In your situation, I'd consider WDS Wi-Fi bridges. The Buffalo Hi-Power WiFi routers that JackMDS mentions on his web site sound like good candidates. WiFi can sometimes propagate amazingly well, even when you'd think it wouldn't. Just be sure to turn encryption on.

 

[cmetz]

petrusbroder, I suggest you try to get a professional retrofit installer to give you an estimate. Don't assume that things are hard for them to go through - it's their problem, but they have tools and tricks for the job. Also, with an estimate in hand you can compare the alternatives you have.

A real wired install will be the most expensive up front but will add value to the house and it will Just Work.

 

[skyking]

Providing the builder ran individual phone lines to a central point, and if there is a phone jack in each room, you could use Cisco LRE equipment for in-house DSL.
Granted, the speeds will be 15Mbps max but it will suffice for the intenet.
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/switches/ps4916/index.html
I have a few of these installations going, and purchased the 2950's on ebay for 600 or so.
The modems can be had for 30-~40 each, once again at ebay and with patience.

 

[nweaver]

Originally posted by: cmetz
petrusbroder, I suggest you try to get a professional retrofit installer to give you an estimate. Don't assume that things are hard for them to go through - it's their problem, but they have tools and tricks for the job. Also, with an estimate in hand you can compare the alternatives you have.

A real wired install will be the most expensive up front but will add value to the house and it will Just Work.

the problem is, it won't add as much value to the home as it would cost to put it in. It's dumb, I know, but you get more value by putting a cheap ceiling fan in then a nice deck (I know, I did both).

may not add value to the dollar, but if it makes you happy, and if/when you sell it may win a deal.

 

[petrusbroder]

Thanks a lot for the comments. I have tried some different WiFi-AP (D-Link, Netgear, Linksys), but not the Buffalo High Power, and as I posted before - it did not work well enough. I have asked a retrofitter for an estimate and he thought it would be competitive with Ethernet over Powerline (because the units are expensive ...). So I'll let him and two others give me estimates.

BTW, this system is for my private house and not for an appartment (where do you find a 8 bedroom apartment for a reasonable price? ).
Yeah, it is not common for such small houses to be built in concrete, but - as I said - the original builder was in concrete business.
We are 8 people in the house (six teenagers) and we need the 'net ...

Saturating the house with hardware (i.e. several AP) may be an option (if the retrofitter is too expensive), but I do not like that idea - I would probably need 4 - 5 units, at least 2 on each floor.

 

[StormRider]

I think D-Link sells a Powerline HD (DS2 chipset) kit (comes with 2 adapters) that is considerably cheaper than the Netgear HD Powerline kit. At Best Buy it is selling for $169 while the Netgear version is selling for $199. I would think about a mixed network environment. Think about using HD Powerline to bridge troublesome spots and Wireless G elsewhere.

 

[warriorfan23]

How is gaming over powerline networking? I am considering buying the powerline stuff asap depending on people's opinions. TIA

 

[StormRider]

Unfortunately, I don't play any games over the internet so I can't help you there.