Ethanol Scam

[bignateyk]

http://www.centredaily.com/2013/01/14/3464385/ethanol-scam-drives-food-prices.html

Is anyone else sick and tired of having ethanol added to their gas? Is this something both republicans and democrats can agree on? Corn based ethanol is such a terrible idea. It ruins small engines (or you pay a fortune to treat the fuel so it doesn't).

I'm a democrat in favor of alternative energy, but corn based ethanol is probably the dumbest thing ever. It's such a joke that we even have the mandate for it.

During 2012’s drought, U.S. hog farmers imported corn from Brazil while U.S. corn was being made into ethanol. This is even more ridiculous than it sounds as Brazil is an efficient producer of sugar-cane based ethanol. Because of trade barriers designed to protect the U.S. ethanol industry, farmers were forced to import Brazilian corn instead of Brazilian ethanol.

Read more here: http://www.centredaily.com/2013/01/14/3464385/ethanol-scam-drives-food-prices.html#storylink=cpy​

:facepalm:

 

[Genx87]

What do you expect when govt picks winners and loser in the economy? Mandates of corn ethanol outweigh the benefits of feeding livestock. Meanwhile BigAg laughs all the way to the bank.

 

[sactoking]

IIRC, ethanol use also causes automobile gas mileage to be misstated: EPA-mandated MPG stickers quote MPG using pure gasoline and not the ethanol blends that actual consumers are provided. Since ethanol is less energy-dense than gasoline EPA MPG stickers overstate real gas mileage.

 

[Nintendesert]

It's a crime against humanity to use food crops as fuel sources.

 

[chucky2]

IIRC, ethanol use also causes automobile gas mileage to be misstated: EPA-mandated MPG stickers quote MPG using pure gasoline and not the ethanol blends that actual consumers are provided. Since ethanol is less energy-dense than gasoline EPA MPG stickers overstate real gas mileage.

Yes, this is true. This says nothing of EPA testing that is not accurate for large %'s of people and how they drive. We don't even need to bring CARB into the discussion...

 

[drebo]

I have no problem with ethanol or alternatively created fuels.

My issue is with using foodstock as fuel. We should be using sugar cane or switchgrass for our ethanol production. They're both much more efficient than corn, and they don't affect our food stock nearly as much.

Of course, the corn lobby would never hear about it and the sugar lobby makes it financially not feasible.

Basically, corn ethanol is only viable because of subsidies. Without the subsidies, we'd be using more efficient ethanol production and feed prices wouldn't have skyrocketed, thus all foodstuffs would be much less expensive.

 

[child of wonder]

Couldn't agree more. Adding ethanol to gasoline lowers mileage, can potentially harm engines, and causes food prices to increase.

If consumers want ethanol in their gas let the market dictate that, not politicians with laws, subsidies, and trade restrictions on foreign sources of ethanol.

 

[halik]

http://www.centredaily.com/2013/01/14/3464385/ethanol-scam-drives-food-prices.html

Is anyone else sick and tired of having ethanol added to their gas? Is this something both republicans and democrats can agree on? Corn based ethanol is such a terrible idea. It ruins small engines (or you pay a fortune to treat the fuel so it doesn't).

I'm a democrat in favor of alternative energy, but corn based ethanol is probably the dumbest thing ever. It's such a joke that we even have the mandate for it.



:facepalm:

My car gets 28-29mpg highway on reglar gas and roughly 26 with ethanol. I have yet to find an ethanol-free gas station in chicago.

 

[BoberFett]

Goddam the free market and it's ethanol!!!!

 

[Ryan]

BFD - I drive to the local station that sells ethanol free gas for my mower, etc. You can also but ethanol gas treatment for a few bucks a bottle - it'll treat quite a few gallons. That's not a fortune.

 

[halik]

Goddam the free market and its ethanol!!!!

First off

Second, premium in MN is ethanol free... you guy win.

 

[rudder]

And soon the government will bump it up from 10% to 15%.... thereby reinvigorating the U.S. automarket after all pre-2012 cars have their engines turn to crap.

 

[werepossum]

It's a crime against humanity to use food crops as fuel sources.

I tend to agree with this. However, I also have problems with methyl tert butyl ether and there aren't really practical alternatives for fuel oxygenates. Hopefully we'll soon develop non-food crop sources of ethanol which use sewage and waste water, but until then for me it's ethanol for the trucks and MTBE for the bike and boat.

 

[werepossum]

And soon the government will bump it up from 10% to 15%.... thereby reinvigorating the U.S. automarket after all pre-2012 cars have their engines turn to crap.

Read an article months back about a 500 hour E85 test on three new outboards, two fours and a modern oil-injected two-stroke. One (the 300 HP IIRC) was destroyed during the test; the other two were badly damaged during tear-down and would not have survived the warranty period. This may be a huge problem for boats and probably for motorcycles too.

 

[Meghan54]

Read an article months back about a 500 hour E85 test on three new outboards, two fours and a modern oil-injected two-stroke. One (the 300 HP IIRC) was destroyed during the test; the other two were badly damaged during tear-down and would not have survived the warranty period. This may be a huge problem for boats and probably for motorcycles too.

And the point of the article was.....??? Running a fuel no boat motor has ever been certified to run proves exactly nothing. E10 is vastly different than E85....seems that article was just fear mongering tripe.

I say that upon my experiences with using E10 in various outboards and one I/O engine over the last couple of decades without a single incident. Of course, one has to make sure all the plastics and rubber in contact with the fuel is ethanol tolerant, but outside that.....never had a problem with all the Mercury, Evinrude, Tohatsu, Yamaha outboards I've owned and used.

 

[bignateyk]

I've got a mower, ATV, chainsaw, and weedwacker. It's a pain in the ass to have to treat the gas I put in them all (not to mention expensive). And the treatment causes more pollution.

There's no gas station anywhere near me that sells ethanol free gasoline. One of our cars is also from 1995, so I'm guessing the ethanol is wrecking that as well.

There is so much fail with corn based ethanol.

 

[CycloWizard]

IIRC, ethanol use also causes automobile gas mileage to be misstated: EPA-mandated MPG stickers quote MPG using pure gasoline and not the ethanol blends that actual consumers are provided. Since ethanol is less energy-dense than gasoline EPA MPG stickers overstate real gas mileage.

There is no such thing as "pure gasoline." Gasoline is a mixture of plenty of components, primarily heptane and octane but with many additives in addition. The octane rating is directly related to the compression ratio the fuel can support and has virtually nothing to do with mileage. EPA-estimated mileage is a very ballpark estimate which, not surprisingly, inflates the numbers for American vehicles which tend to be more aggressive and less aerodynamic. Where I take exception with what you said is that ethanol is really added because it has a very high energy density and therefore boosts the apparent octane rating of the mixture. Thus, less octane and more smaller alkanes will constitute the remainder of the fuel mixture.

 

[LTC8K6]

And the point of the article was.....??? Running a fuel no boat motor has ever been certified to run proves exactly nothing. E10 is vastly different than E85....seems that article was just fear mongering tripe.

I say that upon my experiences with using E10 in various outboards and one I/O engine over the last couple of decades without a single incident. Of course, one has to make sure all the plastics and rubber in contact with the fuel is ethanol tolerant, but outside that.....never had a problem with all the Mercury, Evinrude, Tohatsu, Yamaha outboards I've owned and used.

IIRC, it was an E15 test.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/ne...engines-industry-engineers-say-132968333.html

 

[werepossum]

And the point of the article was.....??? Running a fuel no boat motor has ever been certified to run proves exactly nothing. E10 is vastly different than E85....seems that article was just fear mongering tripe.

I say that upon my experiences with using E10 in various outboards and one I/O engine over the last couple of decades without a single incident. Of course, one has to make sure all the plastics and rubber in contact with the fuel is ethanol tolerant, but outside that.....never had a problem with all the Mercury, Evinrude, Tohatsu, Yamaha outboards I've owned and used.

IIRC, it was an E15 test.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/ne...engines-industry-engineers-say-132968333.html

Thanks for the link. This was essentially the story - I saw pretty much the same story but more detailed in an engineering journal - and I should have said E15 rather than E85. A 200 HP oil-injected two stroke was literally destroyed, suffering catastrophic failure, and two four strokes, a 300 HP and a 9.9 HP, were severely damaged in an industry-standard 200 hour test.

The point of the article was that E15 (which the government is pushing) will quickly destroy outboards, even new models. Even two strokes. If Meghan54 wishes to run 15% ethanol mixtures in all his many outboards, that's between him and his many outboard manufacturers. This isn't dissolving plastics and rubbers though, it's overheating and detonation issues. Engines can obviously be designed to run on any mixture of ethanol, including pure, but current outboard engines cannot without a redesign.