Ethanol replacment for gasonline...

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Roger
Eli;

Reread my reedited statemnt above


Everyone look at it this way, the more the BTU rating of a fuel, the more miles traveled per gallon of fuel, it's really simple to understand if you view it this way

There is no way that Ethanol will ever be as fuel efficiant as gasoline because there is less BTU per gallon as compared to gasoline.

What good is a high BTU if 70% of it gets wasted? Gasoline holds more potential energy but we'll never reach it with current engines.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
The cool part about ethanol is that it's exhaust is basically carbon dioxide and water vapor, which is taken back by plantlife anyway

Gasoline + oxygen = CO2 + water

You don't gain anything there by going with ethanol. Of course there are all the NOx and other things that come out due to imperfect burning, but that'd happen with ethanol too.

Ethanol is a poor choice as a replacement for gasoline. For all the money and time it will cost to do the conversion, you're not ahead much at all.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Roger
Eli;

Reread my reedited statemnt above


Everyone look at it this way, the more the BTU rating of a fuel, the more miles traveled per gallon of fuel, it's really simple to understand if you view it this way

There is no way that Ethanol will ever be as fuel efficiant as gasoline because there is less BTU per gallon as compared to gasoline.

What good is a high BTU if 70% of it gets wasted? Gasoline holds more potential energy but we'll never reach it with current engines.

I understand what he's saying, and I'm not denying that you're going to get less MPG with ethanol than with gasoline. I just think the benefits outweigh that one negative. Namely it being produced from renewable resources.

Alcohol has the potential to be much cheaper than gasoline, especially if we find highly efficent ways to produce it. On a large scale, you can make your own 180 proof alcohol for 1$/gallon.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: SagaLore
The cool part about ethanol is that it's exhaust is basically carbon dioxide and water vapor, which is taken back by plantlife anyway

Gasoline + oxygen = CO2 + water

You don't gain anything there by going with ethanol. Of course there are all the NOx and other things that come out due to imperfect burning, but that'd happen with ethanol too.

Ethanol is a poor choice as a replacement for gasoline. For all the money and time it will cost to do the conversion, you're not ahead much at all.

Alcohol was nearly the fuel of choice for automakers because gasoline was a poor fuel.

If it weren't for the discovery that adding tetra-ethyl lead to gasoline improved its octane rating significantly, we would all be using alcohol right now.

I am curious, what do you suggest? We already have a huge gasoline infrastructure. It is going to be hard to switch, period. But we definately need to do it.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: SagaLore
I guess fermentation requires micro-organisms too.

Grape juice + yeast = wine...

lol Yea I know,

wine, beer, jack daniel's coolers = yummy.

On that note - I wonder how much water we could leave in the ethanol to ask as a buffer for expansion, when it is turned into steam. Steam engines boast over 40 percent efficiency ratio.

As far as I know, alcohol and water stay mixed homegeneously rather well, unlinke gasoline (even ethanol tries to seperate from gasoline). So then we got ourselves an internally combusting steam engine. How cool ist that?

(I read before there was work being done on a hydrogen wankel rotary engine using this same principle. Water vapor had to be included in the hydrogen/air mixture to create steam, since water is an awesome carrier of heat that produced kinetic energy rather than just heat waste. In fact... here's a cool site about it.)

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: SagaLore
The cool part about ethanol is that it's exhaust is basically carbon dioxide and water vapor, which is taken back by plantlife anyway

Gasoline + oxygen = CO2 + water

You don't gain anything there by going with ethanol. Of course there are all the NOx and other things that come out due to imperfect burning, but that'd happen with ethanol too.

Ethanol is a poor choice as a replacement for gasoline. For all the money and time it will cost to do the conversion, you're not ahead much at all.

Alcohol was nearly the fuel of choice for automakers because gasoline was a poor fuel.

If it weren't for the discovery that adding tetra-ethyl lead to gasoline improved its octane rating significantly, we would all be using alcohol right now.

I am curious, what do you suggest? We already have a huge gasoline infrastructure. It is going to be hard to switch, period. But we definately need to do it.

I'm not saying that alcohol is a poor fuel to use, but it is a poor reason to switch over the entire infrastructure.

I say throw a bit more money at the fuel cell tech and simultaneously switch over to hydrogen. Do an intermediary step with hydrogen combustion engines. That way you can set up the stations, teach people the fuelling process for hydrogen, get some production under way etc...

 

What good is a high BTU if 70% of it gets wasted? Gasoline holds more potential energy but we'll never reach it with current engines.

You have the same inefficiency with a Ethanol powered vehicle as well, this inefficiency has nothing to do with fuels, it has to do with the design of the Otto Cycle internal combustion engine.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: SagaLore
I guess fermentation requires micro-organisms too.

Grape juice + yeast = wine...

lol Yea I know,

wine, beer, jack daniel's coolers = yummy.

On that note - I wonder how much water we could leave in the ethanol to ask as a buffer for expansion, when it is turned into steam. Steam engines boast over 40 percent efficiency ratio.

As far as I know, alcohol and water stay mixed homegeneously rather well, unlinke gasoline (even ethanol tries to seperate from gasoline). So then we got ourselves an internally combusting steam engine. How cool ist that?

(I read before there was work being done on a hydrogen wankel rotary engine using this same principle. Water vapor had to be included in the hydrogen/air mixture to create steam, since water is an awesome carrier of heat that produced kinetic energy rather than just heat waste. In fact... here's a cool site about it.)

Heh, you said coolers.

But yeah, ethanol and water are very difficult to separate IIRC. Their boiling and freezing points are very very close to each other, and they are both polar molecules so they mix very readily. (all this is off the top of my head so I may be wrong).

Interesting fact: polar substances mix with polar substances, non-polar substances mix with non-polar substances. Polar and non polar do not mix.

water(polar) + gasoline(non-polar) = do not mix
oil base paint(non-polar) + water(polar) = do not mix
oil base paint(non-polar) + gasoline(non-polar) = mix

That's why water does a crappy job of cleaning up oil paint spills, but gasoline works well.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: SagaLore
The cool part about ethanol is that it's exhaust is basically carbon dioxide and water vapor, which is taken back by plantlife anyway

Gasoline + oxygen = CO2 + water

You don't gain anything there by going with ethanol. Of course there are all the NOx and other things that come out due to imperfect burning, but that'd happen with ethanol too.

Ethanol is a poor choice as a replacement for gasoline. For all the money and time it will cost to do the conversion, you're not ahead much at all.

Alcohol was nearly the fuel of choice for automakers because gasoline was a poor fuel.

If it weren't for the discovery that adding tetra-ethyl lead to gasoline improved its octane rating significantly, we would all be using alcohol right now.

I am curious, what do you suggest? We already have a huge gasoline infrastructure. It is going to be hard to switch, period. But we definately need to do it.

I'm not saying that alcohol is a poor fuel to use, but it is a poor reason to switch over the entire infrastructure.

I say throw a bit more money at the fuel cell tech and simultaneously switch over to hydrogen. Do an intermediary step with hydrogen combustion engines. That way you can set up the stations, teach people the fuelling process for hydrogen, get some production under way etc...

Yeah, I agree with you. I was just being short-sighted, I guess.

Fuel-cells are the way to go.

Besides, if everybody could feel the power associated with an electric motor, I think many would be hooked instantly..

It's the batteries that are holding us back.

 

On that note - I wonder how much water we could leave in the ethanol to ask as a buffer for expansion, when it is turned into steam. Steam engines boast over 40 percent efficiency ratio.

This is the last thing you want to inject into a internal combustion engine, why ?

Internal combustion engines rely on heat and expanding gasses to force the pistons down thier bores, injecting water will only lower the combustion temperatures resulting in less power and fuel efficiancy.

This has been studied by the big three automakers for years, if it was beneficial, they would have introduced it already.

 

[PG]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Roger

Just because it has a lower BTU rating doesen't mean that it is a poor fuel

I did not say it was a poor fuel, I was only pointing out that it was not a Superior fuel gasoline.

I guess it depends on your fuel criteria... lol.

I consider ethanol to be superior to gasoline because it's pure, non-carcinogenic, has a high octane rating, and can be made from renewable resources...

Making ethanol creates lots of carcinogens, but the plants are being forced to clean up their act:

The Minnesota Pollution Control Agency (MPCA) and the federal Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) recently discovered that ethanol plants emit certain air pollutants in greater quantities than previously believed.

In most cases, ethanol plants emit carbon monoxide (CO) and volatile organic compounds (VOCs) in greater amounts than stated by plant officials in their original permit applications. VOCs are chemicals from both natural and man-made sources; some are toxic or cause cancer. Man-made sources include vehicles, solvents, paints and glues. The VOCs being emitted in significant amounts include some or all of the following: acetaldehyde, acrolein, formaldehyde, 2-furaldehyde, acetic acid and lactic acid.

link

 

[silverpig]

We've got a huge electric bus system here in Vancouver. Sort of like trolleys in that they are run by electricity from overhead wires, but they're regular buses after that. They rock. Super quiet as the motor is off when stopped, and there's no gears; the motor just spins faster and faster

We also have 2 fuel cell powered buses, although I've never seen them in real life, nor have I ridden on them.


edit: Make that 3 fuel cell powered buses

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: SagaLore
The cool part about ethanol is that it's exhaust is basically carbon dioxide and water vapor, which is taken back by plantlife anyway

Gasoline + oxygen = CO2 + water

You don't gain anything there by going with ethanol. Of course there are all the NOx and other things that come out due to imperfect burning, but that'd happen with ethanol too.

Ethanol is a poor choice as a replacement for gasoline. For all the money and time it will cost to do the conversion, you're not ahead much at all.

Alcohol was nearly the fuel of choice for automakers because gasoline was a poor fuel.

If it weren't for the discovery that adding tetra-ethyl lead to gasoline improved its octane rating significantly, we would all be using alcohol right now.

I am curious, what do you suggest? We already have a huge gasoline infrastructure. It is going to be hard to switch, period. But we definately need to do it.

I'm not saying that alcohol is a poor fuel to use, but it is a poor reason to switch over the entire infrastructure.

I say throw a bit more money at the fuel cell tech and simultaneously switch over to hydrogen. Do an intermediary step with hydrogen combustion engines. That way you can set up the stations, teach people the fuelling process for hydrogen, get some production under way etc...

Yeah, I agree with you. I was just being short-sighted, I guess.

Fuel-cells are the way to go.

Besides, if everybody could feel the power associated with an electric motor, I think many would be hooked instantly..

It's the batteries that are holding us back.

I don't know if fuel-cells are really the way to go since they're just an energy storage medium, rather than an actual source. You still have to generate power to feed the fuel cells somewhere and I don't see any big rush to embrace clean energy sources like wind, solar and hydro. It's beyond me why we don't just fill Wyoming with wind turbines since it's windy as hell and not heavily populated.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Roger

What good is a high BTU if 70% of it gets wasted? Gasoline holds more potential energy but we'll never reach it with current engines.

You have the same inefficiency with a Ethanol powered vehicle as well, this inefficiency has nothing to do with fuels, it has to do with the design of the Otto Cycle internal combustion engine.

Right, but, there is more precision in burning ethanol, especially if you use the diesel combustion method. But you wouldn't need heavy diesel equipment to perform this, because alcohol has a much lower ignition point than diesel fuel. So basically we can do a better job fine tuning the engine... you realize that on many cars, all you had to do is pull off your catalytic converter and you get double the mileage (I know people that have done this... temporarily of course...). Gasoline consists of many types of carbon compounds, so the engine has to be flexible enough to burn that range - plus you need all the additives to prevent ping and to clean up the exhaust, etc.

So if you don't need all that extra crap on an ethanol engine, you'll see a higher efficiency. Plus, if we can combine the efficiency of steam within the system, we're much further ahead than gasoline...

A (renewable/clean) alcohol based diesel steam egine - how can you not think that is cool?

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Roger

On that note - I wonder how much water we could leave in the ethanol to ask as a buffer for expansion, when it is turned into steam. Steam engines boast over 40 percent efficiency ratio.

This is the last thing you want to inject into a internal combustion engine, why ?

Internal combustion engines rely on heat and expanding gasses to force the pistons down thier bores, injecting water will only lower the combustion temperatures resulting in less power and fuel efficiancy.

This has been studied by the big three automakers for years, if it was beneficial, they would have introduced it already.

Fighter planes during WWII used water injection in short bursts to boost horse power.
I'm not advocating its use in a passenger car and provide the following links only for information purposes.

Water Injection
AquaTune

 

Right, but, there is more precision in burning ethanol, especially if you use the diesel combustion method. But you wouldn't need heavy diesel equipment to perform this, because alcohol has a much lower ignition point than diesel fuel. So basically we can do a better job fine tuning the engine... you realize that on many cars, all you had to do is pull off your catalytic converter and you get double the mileage (I know people that have done this... temporarily of course...). Gasoline consists of many types of carbon compounds, so the engine has to be flexible enough to burn that range - plus you need all the additives to prevent ping and to clean up the exhaust, etc.

What have you been smoking ?
Can I have some ?

 

[silverpig]

Fuel cells aren't a storage medium at all. It's an engine type, like the internal combustion engine. The fuel would be hydrogen. Hydrogen is plentiful and the process to produce it is simple. We could make the electricity to electrolyse it via nuclear and hydroelectric dams now, and solar, wind, geothermal, and maybe tidal in the near future, with fusion coming in the semi-distant future.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: SagaLore
The cool part about ethanol is that it's exhaust is basically carbon dioxide and water vapor, which is taken back by plantlife anyway

Gasoline + oxygen = CO2 + water

You don't gain anything there by going with ethanol. Of course there are all the NOx and other things that come out due to imperfect burning, but that'd happen with ethanol too.

Ethanol is a poor choice as a replacement for gasoline. For all the money and time it will cost to do the conversion, you're not ahead much at all.

Alcohol was nearly the fuel of choice for automakers because gasoline was a poor fuel.

If it weren't for the discovery that adding tetra-ethyl lead to gasoline improved its octane rating significantly, we would all be using alcohol right now.

I am curious, what do you suggest? We already have a huge gasoline infrastructure. It is going to be hard to switch, period. But we definately need to do it.

I'm not saying that alcohol is a poor fuel to use, but it is a poor reason to switch over the entire infrastructure.

I say throw a bit more money at the fuel cell tech and simultaneously switch over to hydrogen. Do an intermediary step with hydrogen combustion engines. That way you can set up the stations, teach people the fuelling process for hydrogen, get some production under way etc...

An existing gasoline station is already capable of supplying ethanol fuel... but to supply hydrogen, you have to start from scratch. And then if we went to fuel cells, those hydrogen stations would become obsolete. I don't understand why you think that is more economical...

My point is that with ethanol, we don't have to switch over any infrastructure... we'd be using what we already have. The fuel stations would be the same, the engines would nearly be the same, the fuel tanks would be the same, the methods of transporting it around the U.S. would be the same... and instead of drilling for oil, which some view as pure evil, we could just make it out of agricultural/lumber scraps.

 

etech

We are not discussing forced induction here, the reason why water injection works on turbocharged vehicles is because it lowers combustion temperatures which allows more boost which in turn makes more horsepower.

That second link you posted is a scam, fuel magnets anyone ?

 

[rgwalt]

I haven't read the whole thread, but both ethanol and methanol CAN be produced biologically. However, industrial scale production is typically done using synthesis gas, or syn gas. Syn gas is extracted from oil wells, or is produced from hydrocarbons. So, without re-tooling our industries, we won't gain anything by converting to an alcohol fuel economy. Also, there is no distribution system setup for ethanol or methanol like there is for gasoline and other petroleum products. New gas pumps and tanks would need to be installed nationwide. Gas station owners are reluctant to do so because of the high cost. Finally, the energy density of methanol or ethanol is much lower than for gasoline. This will impact the efficiency of the vehicles, how much fuel they have to carry, etc.

Ryan

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
An existing gasoline station is already capable of supplying ethanol fuel... but to supply hydrogen, you have to start from scratch. And then if we went to fuel cells, those hydrogen stations would become obsolete. I don't understand why you think that is more economical...

My point is that with ethanol, we don't have to switch over any infrastructure... we'd be using what we already have. The fuel stations would be the same, the engines would nearly be the same, the fuel tanks would be the same, the methods of transporting it around the U.S. would be the same... and instead of drilling for oil, which some view as pure evil, we could just make it out of agricultural/lumber scraps.

You have to build the infrastructure to produce ethanol in the quantities we'd need, you'd have to modify car engines...

If we went to fuel cells hydrogen stations would be a NECESSITY, not obsolete. You'd still have to fill up your car with hydrogen to make it run.

 

[etech]

Originally posted by: Roger
etech

We are not discussing forced induction here, the reason why water injection works on turbocharged vehicles is because it lowers combustion temperatures which allows more boost which in turn makes more horsepower.

That second link you posted is a scam, fuel magnets anyone ?

Thank you Roger for pointing out what I already knew

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Roger

Right, but, there is more precision in burning ethanol, especially if you use the diesel combustion method. But you wouldn't need heavy diesel equipment to perform this, because alcohol has a much lower ignition point than diesel fuel. So basically we can do a better job fine tuning the engine... you realize that on many cars, all you had to do is pull off your catalytic converter and you get double the mileage (I know people that have done this... temporarily of course...). Gasoline consists of many types of carbon compounds, so the engine has to be flexible enough to burn that range - plus you need all the additives to prevent ping and to clean up the exhaust, etc.

What have you been smoking ?
Can I have some ?

I don't smoke, but I have been drinking a lot of hot Green Tea lately.

I'm not making this stuff up, a few years ago I was obsessed with the Wankel Rotary engine and my research lead me into several directions. The wankel rotary engine can only achieve a maximum of a 7:1 compression ratio, and because of large amount of surface area, the chamber always stays colder than in a normal piston engine. It was harder to keep the fuel mixture from solidfying on the surfaces, they realized they had to cool it less to keep the chamber warm. Now Mazda is looking to using hydrogen as a fuel, but because hydrogen has less expansion and more heat as a byproduct of combustion, they have looked to using additional water vapor as a medium for expansion. Heat + Water = Steam = A lot of kintetic expansion.

Besides, you're telling me that adding water into a combustion chamber cools the chamber. I'm not going to dispute that, because it's true - however - you want that! Radiant heat does didilly squat. It's a waste. However, by letting water turn the heat into kinetic energy, you can do something with it. The phase between water and steam has a very beneficial kinetic burst.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: etech

Originally posted by: Roger
etech

We are not discussing forced induction here, the reason why water injection works on turbocharged vehicles is because it lowers combustion temperatures which allows more boost which in turn makes more horsepower.

That second link you posted is a scam, fuel magnets anyone ?

Thank you Roger for pointing out what I already knew

Okay guys, now play nice.

 

[rgwalt]

Originally posted by: Fausto1

Originally posted by: theNEOone

Originally posted by: PG

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: theNEOone

Originally posted by: Quixfire
The big problem with ethanol is it's a sugar based. When burning it for a long period of time it will carbonize your engine. Methanol is a better solution if it wasn't so poisonous.

you can't use methanol. energy is produced by breaking carbon-carbon bonds. methanol contains only one carbon atom (and 4 hydrogens, i.e. CH4) which is unlinked to any other carbons. you can't stick this into anything and expect combustion.

WTF? Please tell me you are joking.

If not, well.. I have no further comment.

Man, this sure will come as news to all the methanol burning go-karters out there..........

And the race car crews that burn methanol, such as all cars at the Indy 500 since 1964.

http://www.innerauto.com/innerauto/text/fact17.html

hmm, well i stand corrected. i know nothing about cars, but in my metabolics classes my profs would always make connections between metabolism in animals and combustion engines. in biological organisms energy is produced from breaking C-C bonds. i figured the same was true w/ engines.

doh.

You release energy any time you break any kind of molecular bond. The high-E bond in methanol is the double bond between the Carbon and the Oxygen. Any time you move, you're utilizing energy from the phosphate bonds in ATP.

There is no carbon oxygen double bond in methanol.

Time go to back to O-Chem Fausto!

Ryan