Ethanol or Electric

[MBrown]

Discuss.

 

[desy]

Electric hands down once quick charge batteries and supercapacitors are available.
They much simpler mechanically and maintenance is much lower
Caveat has always been storage issue and reduced range

 

[Nyati13]

Ethanol is easier to achieve right now, but electric is a better long term solution.


So to quote arf.com, "Get both"!!!! Do ethanol now, and lead into electric once it's ready.

 

[PingSpike]

Ethanol is shit. Batteries are pretty much the only issue with electric, are there actually seem to be some advances being made there...for like the first time in a million years.

 

[Away]

What about hydrogen?

 

[Nyati13]

Originally posted by: Away
What about hydrogen?

Hydrogen is just an energy storage medium, just like a battery. It would be better to concentrate on electric battery technology and not waste time on electric to hydrogen tech.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: Away
What about hydrogen?

Hydrogen is good if you use something like solar to split H2O, otherwise it takes more energy to split the molecules than what you get back.

On the OP, electric hands down. Within a week my Insight will have a plugin charger + 2X stock battery capacity, so I'm one more step closer.

 

[heymrdj]

Ethanol. Electric has far too much to go really for (what i wonder) to ever be viable. For me a vehicle MUST be able to:

run for 10 hours with no extended stops (30 minutes or less)
at "fillups" be able to go a minimum of 600 miles per day with fillups only requiring 5 minute stops at the most (no 8 hour charges)
Not kill my electric bill by drawing KW of electricity from the wall (what's the use of saving gas money if i pay a 600$ a month electric bill)

 

[potato28]

Hydrogen, but using it for an electrical medium. It won't be long before someone brings out a half decent electric vehicle that doesn't take 80 hours to charge and only does 5 km before it dies.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Bioethanol from corn isn't worth developing. It doesn't do what it is supposed to; that is it isn't greener than gas or more efficient.

 

[MovingTarget]

I'd say electric. They are much simpler mechanically, and the power can be provided from a multitude of sources. Once sufficiently powerful capacitors/batteries come to market, we would be able to use them just like regular cars. Until then, a backup gas/diesel/ethanol/cosmic ray powered generator would be necessary to keep the load going after the initial charge wore out. Hence, the Chevrolet Volt concept. It is a pure electric car at its heart as when the recharge ability/speed improves, they could easily phase out the generator altogether.

 

[Excelsior]

Not kill my electric bill by drawing KW of electricity from the wall (what's the use of saving gas money if i pay a 600$ a month electric bill)

Paying for the electricity to charge an electric car would def be less expensive than paying $3-4 for a gallon of gas.

 

[charrison]

Ethanol is an interesting fuel, but it has too many problems that need to be solved first. Once they solve the production and transportation issues, it will probably work out ok.

Ethanol in a turbocharged engine will make up for its lower energy content over gas. Fords new turbocharged v6 makes 350hp on gas and 450hp on ethanol.

Between pure electric and pure ethanol, I will take ethanol as there are too many battery issues currently unsolved.

 

[Throckmorton]

Ethanol is a very bad fuel, for the environment, and for the world's starving poor.

 

[GoatMonkey]

Electric, but ethanol has its uses also.

The main reason to continue to develop ethanol processing is to remove our dependency on foreign oil as a power source. Ethanol has nothing to do with improving the environment. We're still going to need oil for making plastic and other products, but it's not a power source it will last a lot longer. Eventually we'll move to powering our cars with something else, but we'll still be using up oil. That will make all of that plastic we're dumping in landfills now a lot more valuable. Ethanol is valuable in the short term as a way for the rest of the world to tell the middle east where to stick their oil.

Electric plug in type cars seem like they are going to be the future of things. I think they will continue to need to be hybrids for a while though, since there isn't any quick charge method in production yet. Maybe capacitors will do it. I'd be OK with driving a hybrid if they didn't make so many of them so stupid looking. Eventually hybrids will stop being the "smug" car and just be cars. Kind of the way cell phones went from being the smug device to just something that everyone has.

If we do get to the point where everyone wants a plug in electric car, we're going to need some greatly improved central power sources. Currently cities with high summer temperatures tend to have brown outs when too many people use their air conditioner. Think of what happens when those people all start plugging in their cars. At this point nuclear seems like the best solution to that. We need some more modern nuclear power plants, and a completed waste storage facility. It may not be too long until there is a cheap way to get solar power, but reasonably clean nuclear power is available now.

 

[Lonyo]

Biodiesel/electric hybrid (diesel from algae).

There was a site with an article comparing ethanol, hybrid and pure electrics, and the hybrid came out best IIRC.
Was on Digg but for the life of me I can't remember what it was/where it was from.

 

[desy]

By the time bio diesel from algae comes online they will have figured out the battery storage deal and the electric car is the better technology.
But trains and trucks and airplanes will still need something and thats what existing oil and future bio products should be kept for

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey
Electric, but ethanol has its uses also.

The main reason to continue to develop ethanol processing is to remove our dependency on foreign oil as a power source. Ethanol has nothing to do with improving the environment. We're still going to need oil for making plastic and other products, but it's not a power source it will last a lot longer. Eventually we'll move to powering our cars with something else, but we'll still be using up oil. That will make all of that plastic we're dumping in landfills now a lot more valuable. Ethanol is valuable in the short term as a way for the rest of the world to tell the middle east where to stick their oil.

Electric plug in type cars seem like they are going to be the future of things. I think they will continue to need to be hybrids for a while though, since there isn't any quick charge method in production yet. Maybe capacitors will do it. I'd be OK with driving a hybrid if they didn't make so many of them so stupid looking. Eventually hybrids will stop being the "smug" car and just be cars. Kind of the way cell phones went from being the smug device to just something that everyone has.

If we do get to the point where everyone wants a plug in electric car, we're going to need some greatly improved central power sources. Currently cities with high summer temperatures tend to have brown outs when too many people use their air conditioner. Think of what happens when those people all start plugging in their cars. At this point nuclear seems like the best solution to that. We need some more modern nuclear power plants, and a completed waste storage facility. It may not be too long until there is a cheap way to get solar power, but reasonably clean nuclear power is available now.

Considering even if all the corn in America was used for ethanol it would only fuel 7% of cars (IIRC), no it's not going to reduce dependence on foreign oil. That's just a worthless sound bite politicians use to justify subsidies for the corn special interests.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: desy
By the time bio diesel from algae comes online they will have figured out the battery storage deal and the electric car is the better technology.
But trains and trucks and airplanes will still need something and thats what existing oil and future bio products should be kept for

Depends on where the electricity comes from.
Given that in many places a lot of electricity is produced from pretty dirty coal plants, biodiesel from algae will possibly still be a cleaner solution.

 

[GoatMonkey]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey
Electric, but ethanol has its uses also.

The main reason to continue to develop ethanol processing is to remove our dependency on foreign oil as a power source. Ethanol has nothing to do with improving the environment. We're still going to need oil for making plastic and other products, but it's not a power source it will last a lot longer. Eventually we'll move to powering our cars with something else, but we'll still be using up oil. That will make all of that plastic we're dumping in landfills now a lot more valuable. Ethanol is valuable in the short term as a way for the rest of the world to tell the middle east where to stick their oil.

Electric plug in type cars seem like they are going to be the future of things. I think they will continue to need to be hybrids for a while though, since there isn't any quick charge method in production yet. Maybe capacitors will do it. I'd be OK with driving a hybrid if they didn't make so many of them so stupid looking. Eventually hybrids will stop being the "smug" car and just be cars. Kind of the way cell phones went from being the smug device to just something that everyone has.

If we do get to the point where everyone wants a plug in electric car, we're going to need some greatly improved central power sources. Currently cities with high summer temperatures tend to have brown outs when too many people use their air conditioner. Think of what happens when those people all start plugging in their cars. At this point nuclear seems like the best solution to that. We need some more modern nuclear power plants, and a completed waste storage facility. It may not be too long until there is a cheap way to get solar power, but reasonably clean nuclear power is available now.

Considering even if all the corn in America was used for ethanol it would only fuel 7% of cars (IIRC), no it's not going to reduce dependence on foreign oil. That's just a worthless sound bite politicians use to justify subsidies for the corn special interests.

93% < 100%

 

[desy]

Sure but by the time biodisel is available in the quantity needed for vehicles there will also be more wind farms, solar, geothermal, instream hydro, and nuclear as renewables and electric motors are still a much simpler, and efficient propulsion system.

Not to mention there is already enough spare capacity in the existing power grid to power the whole NA fleet so no hundreds of biodisel plants need to be built, just continue converting the existing grid to alternatives
http://www.theautochannel.com/...2006/12/11/031109.html

 

[stash]

The only reason ethanol is even an option today is because political primaries start in Iowa, and policitians have to pander to corn growers. That's it.

Ethanol is as bad or worse for the planet and the people living on it as oil is. There are already world wide food shortages, due in part to the rising costs of farming due to the rising costs of oil. Taking the limited amount of corn crops and producing (inefficiently) a small amount of fuel is beyond stupid. You do nothing to reduce consumption of oil wihle simultaneously exacerbating food shortages.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey
Electric, but ethanol has its uses also.

The main reason to continue to develop ethanol processing is to remove our dependency on foreign oil as a power source. Ethanol has nothing to do with improving the environment. We're still going to need oil for making plastic and other products, but it's not a power source it will last a lot longer. Eventually we'll move to powering our cars with something else, but we'll still be using up oil. That will make all of that plastic we're dumping in landfills now a lot more valuable. Ethanol is valuable in the short term as a way for the rest of the world to tell the middle east where to stick their oil.

Electric plug in type cars seem like they are going to be the future of things. I think they will continue to need to be hybrids for a while though, since there isn't any quick charge method in production yet. Maybe capacitors will do it. I'd be OK with driving a hybrid if they didn't make so many of them so stupid looking. Eventually hybrids will stop being the "smug" car and just be cars. Kind of the way cell phones went from being the smug device to just something that everyone has.

If we do get to the point where everyone wants a plug in electric car, we're going to need some greatly improved central power sources. Currently cities with high summer temperatures tend to have brown outs when too many people use their air conditioner. Think of what happens when those people all start plugging in their cars. At this point nuclear seems like the best solution to that. We need some more modern nuclear power plants, and a completed waste storage facility. It may not be too long until there is a cheap way to get solar power, but reasonably clean nuclear power is available now.

Considering even if all the corn in America was used for ethanol it would only fuel 7% of cars (IIRC), no it's not going to reduce dependence on foreign oil. That's just a worthless sound bite politicians use to justify subsidies for the corn special interests.

93% < 100%

Technically if all corn went to ethanol production, you could run all the cars in NA on it for 15 days. Of course you could blend it, but the problem remains there isn't enough corn to meet demand, which would drive up prices. That would cause production to shift, which would in turn drive up prices of things like wheat.

 

[GoatMonkey]

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: GoatMonkey
Electric, but ethanol has its uses also.

The main reason to continue to develop ethanol processing is to remove our dependency on foreign oil as a power source. Ethanol has nothing to do with improving the environment. We're still going to need oil for making plastic and other products, but it's not a power source it will last a lot longer. Eventually we'll move to powering our cars with something else, but we'll still be using up oil. That will make all of that plastic we're dumping in landfills now a lot more valuable. Ethanol is valuable in the short term as a way for the rest of the world to tell the middle east where to stick their oil.

Electric plug in type cars seem like they are going to be the future of things. I think they will continue to need to be hybrids for a while though, since there isn't any quick charge method in production yet. Maybe capacitors will do it. I'd be OK with driving a hybrid if they didn't make so many of them so stupid looking. Eventually hybrids will stop being the "smug" car and just be cars. Kind of the way cell phones went from being the smug device to just something that everyone has.

If we do get to the point where everyone wants a plug in electric car, we're going to need some greatly improved central power sources. Currently cities with high summer temperatures tend to have brown outs when too many people use their air conditioner. Think of what happens when those people all start plugging in their cars. At this point nuclear seems like the best solution to that. We need some more modern nuclear power plants, and a completed waste storage facility. It may not be too long until there is a cheap way to get solar power, but reasonably clean nuclear power is available now.

Considering even if all the corn in America was used for ethanol it would only fuel 7% of cars (IIRC), no it's not going to reduce dependence on foreign oil. That's just a worthless sound bite politicians use to justify subsidies for the corn special interests.

93% < 100%

Technically if all corn went to ethanol production, you could run all the cars in NA on it for 15 days. Of course you could blend it, but the problem remains there isn't enough corn to meet demand, which would drive up prices. That would cause production to shift, which would in turn drive up prices of things like wheat.

Of course there isn't enough to meet demand *now*. If there was, it would all just be getting thrown away because it would exceed the current demand. There are other potential sources beside corn also.

Meeting all demand with corn shouldn't really be the goal anyway. It's a temporary measure that could help *reduce* dependence on foreign oil.

Ethanol is really not that good of a solution, so I don't really want to argue for it. Cars really need to be designed to take advantage of high octane of ethanol for it to be useful. It would take an awful lot to make the production of ethanol efficient.

It has the use of reducing dependence of foreign oil immediately, maybe just a little, but it's better than nothing. And I don't want to be the one to use it.

I would prefer that people instead of worrying so much about alternative fuels, just stop driving giant vehicles that they don't need. Even that is a slow transition though. People are still afraid to buy small fuel efficient cars with all of the large vehicles still on the road. I can't blame them for it either, it's logical.

Hybrids aren't bad though, especially if you get a good deal on it. I've considered buying a used hybrid to let someone else eat the initial cost and get the high mileage benefit for myself.

 

[thomsbrain]

Electric, hands down. I have yet to see a convincing argument that corn ethanol even produces net energy, completely aside from the food and land-use issues, and it seems like most of the other sources are more or less theoretical at this point.

I wouldn't mind a car like the Chevy Volt that could also run on ethanol as its backup energy source, but I think moving towards electric-biased cars is the future. Once lithium batteries are the norm, charging times will be far less of an issue (they can receive a majority charge in a matter of minutes), and with solar incentives improving rapidly, it will become easier for homeowners to install their own solar arrays to drastically reduce the impact of charging their cars at home.

I'll miss the sound of a combustion engine running up the revs, but it's an easy price to pay if I still get to drive my own car.