Ethanol is not "green"

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
http://www.abetterearth.org/bl...d.4380/news_detail.asp
Touted as renewable and secure, ethanol comes under renewed scrutiny as an energy source

When we hear the term ?renewable energy source? we typically think about energy sources like solar and wind power. But what about ethanol? Is it renewable? Politicians certainly seem to think so, otherwise why would the Renewable Fuels Act funnel so much money toward the ethanol industry in form of subsidies? The other major argument in favor of ethanol is that it can provide the United States with a secure source of energy. Both of these claims are false, says James Eaves, writing for the Cato Institute.

First of all, ethanol is not currently produced in a "renewable" manner?the production process is almost completely dependant on fossil fuels such as coal, natural gas and diesel. Furthermore, a recent study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences shows that even the nonrenewable production of ethanol could displace at most 14 percent of U.S. gasoline consumption?if all of the corn grown by American farmers were devoted to ethanol production.

[. . .]

Another ethanol shortcoming is that it is not very secure. While it is true that U.S. corn yields have increased substantially over the past few decades, researchers have observed that the year-to-year percentage gain has steadily declined. The rate peaked around 4 percent in the early 1960s and was less than 1.5 percent in 2001. That growth rate is not expected to keep up with food demand.

Moreover, variability in U.S. corn yields appears to be increasing, a point that is underscored by this summer's drought. Researchers predict that, even under the best-case global warming scenario, corn yields are likely to decline by 22 percent in the short-run.


Another point that Eaves makes is that ethanol supply and demand are both susceptible to changes in weather. For example, a heat wave could reduce supplies but at the same time increase demand since people may travel farther to beat the heat.

What, in Eaves's view, should we do?

Perhaps, instead of using coal and natural gas to create ethanol, it may be more efficient to use natural gas or liquefied coal to power cars directly. Or, maybe, if we want a renewable solution, we could use solar panels to generate electricity for electric cars (solar panels capture far more solar energy than corn). These may or may not be good alternatives, but the point is that there are alternatives to ethanol that consumers should explore. Because the technologies and energy markets are incredibly complex, we shouldn't have great confidence that politicians, using billions of dollars in subsidies, will pick the best one. Legislators could better serve the public by mandating the use of alternative fuels or a cap on particular emissions and then allowing the market to reveal the best options for accomplishing those goals.


If markets are generally better than politicians at choosing technological winners and losers, why should we make an exception when it comes to fuel sources?


by Bates Rambow on October 5, 2007

That's incredible. Just to replace 14% of gasoline would require all the farm land in the US to be used for ethanol. Suddenly I feel very green about working in the oil industry.
 

bonkers325

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
13,076
1
0
ethanol isnt green, its just shifting from oil to other fossil fuels. just like how hybrids arent green.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Originally posted by: bonkers325
ethanol isnt green, its just shifting from oil to other fossil fuels. just like how hybrids arent green.

Hybrids ARE green because they make more efficient use of the energy available in fuel
 
Mar 10, 2005
14,647
2
0
ethanol is one of the bigger scams to go down recently. oil consumption actually increases, but it's ok since there's a little green leaf painted on it. rediculous.
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,406
389
126
Ethanol from corn is a bad idea unless we are solely using leftover corn not used in the food supply. Otherwise we are just adding to food costs.

Ethanol from switchgrass grown on unfarmed land is a better idea. Solar is perhaps the best idea though.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,811
19,011
136
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: bonkers325
ethanol isnt green, its just shifting from oil to other fossil fuels. just like how hybrids arent green.

Hybrids ARE green because they make more efficient use of the energy available in fuel

Sure, as long as you're willing to ignore the production and disposal of the batteries.
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
3
56
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: bonkers325
ethanol isnt green, its just shifting from oil to other fossil fuels. just like how hybrids arent green.

Hybrids ARE green because they make more efficient use of the energy available in fuel

There's nothing green about an internal combustion engine or an electric motor.

Period.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
62,811
19,011
136
Originally posted by: KB
Ethanol from corn is a bad idea unless we are solely using leftover corn not used in the food supply. Otherwise we are just adding to food costs.

Ethanol from switchgrass grown on unfarmed land is a better idea. Solar is perhaps the best idea though.

There's an article about switchgrass in this months' Wired.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,581
984
126
I'm thinking nuclear energy is looking like a possible solution to the energy crisis that is looming...now if only we could get a president who can say nuclear correctly.

Solar power would be an excellent solution for those of us in the southwest.
 

Dunbar

Platinum Member
Feb 19, 2001
2,041
0
0
Which is why most politicians sell ethanol as "reducing our dependence on foreign oil." A claim which is only slightly more accurate than the claim of it being green. It also has unintended consequences like driving up corn prices which causes higher inflation in food prices. It's interesting that if we like ethanol why we don't free up trade with sugar producing conuntries since it is a much more efficient way to produce ethanol. But, ah, we gotta protect those American corn farmers...
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,345
126
Originally posted by: GuideBot
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: bonkers325
ethanol isnt green, its just shifting from oil to other fossil fuels. just like how hybrids arent green.

Hybrids ARE green because they make more efficient use of the energy available in fuel

There's nothing green about an internal combustion engine or an electric motor.

Period.

Depending on how the electric is powered (regenerative braking, solar, ect) it absolutely is green being that there are zero emissions produced by either the engine itself or the source that generates it's energy.

 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,581
984
126
Originally posted by: Dunbar
Which is why most politicians sell ethanol as "reducing our dependence on foreign oil." A claim which is only slightly more accurate than the claim of it being green. It also has unintended consequences like driving up corn prices which causes higher inflation in food prices. It's interesting that if we like ethanol why we don't free up trade with sugar producing conuntries since it is a much more efficient way to produce ethanol. But, ah, we gotta protect those American corn farmers...

High fructose corn syrup FTL!!!
 

bonkers325

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
13,076
1
0
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: bonkers325
ethanol isnt green, its just shifting from oil to other fossil fuels. just like how hybrids arent green.

Hybrids ARE green because they make more efficient use of the energy available in fuel

the ends dont justify the means. over the lifetime of the average hybrid car, more barrels of oil will be consumed rather than saved. think about building, shipping, R&D, and disposal of a hybrid car. in the end, you arent really saving much (if any at all). in fact, a company did the research on amount of energy consumed during the lifetime of a hybrid versus the amount of energy saved, and results showed that hybrids use more than they save in a 10-year period. by the 10 year mark, u will probably have to replace the battery and service the hybrid components. in other words, u will never save more oil than you use.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: KB
Ethanol from corn is a bad idea unless we are solely using leftover corn not used in the food supply. Otherwise we are just adding to food costs.

Ethanol from switchgrass grown on unfarmed land is a better idea. Solar is perhaps the best idea though.

There's an article about switchgrass in this months' Wired.

yea its quite good

and im pretty sure you can pull more ethenol out of sugar cane then oil used to extract it
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,345
126
Originally posted by: Dunbar
Which is why most politicians sell ethanol as "reducing our dependence on foreign oil." A claim which is only slightly more accurate than the claim of it being green. It also has unintended consequences like driving up corn prices which causes higher inflation in food prices. It's interesting that if we like ethanol why we don't free up trade with sugar producing conuntries since it is a much more efficient way to produce ethanol. But, ah, we gotta protect those American corn farmers...

That's the other half of it. Ethanol started off dead out of the gates because of the choice of corn. It was pushed by votes and not by science/efficiency of production.

There are far more efficient sources of ethanol, but we either don't have the climate or the existing farm base to produce them.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: Dunbar
Which is why most politicians sell ethanol as "reducing our dependence on foreign oil." A claim which is only slightly more accurate than the claim of it being green. It also has unintended consequences like driving up corn prices which causes higher inflation in food prices. It's interesting that if we like ethanol why we don't free up trade with sugar producing conuntries since it is a much more efficient way to produce ethanol. But, ah, we gotta protect those American corn farmers...

i see nothing wrong with that at all. American bucks staying in America. its a win-win.

 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Originally posted by: KB
Ethanol from corn is a bad idea unless we are solely using leftover corn not used in the food supply. Otherwise we are just adding to food costs.

Ethanol from switchgrass grown on unfarmed land is a better idea. Solar is perhaps the best idea though.

I'd much rather use fossil fuel than replace a little tiny bit of it with biofuel that results in a lot of natural vegetation being replaced with switchgrass. Unfortunately politics take precedence over actually protecting nature, and global warming is more politically influential than conservation right now.
 

fstime

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2004
4,382
5
81
Some people are so ignorant.

"im saving the environment by buying a hybrid."

Yeah, you use less gas but think about the pollution the production plant makes to make the car and the disposal of the batteries afterwards.
 

Dunbar

Platinum Member
Feb 19, 2001
2,041
0
0
Originally posted by: Citrix
i see nothing wrong with that at all. American bucks staying in America. its a win-win.

It's a win for the farmers who get government protection through regulation. Not for everybody else, the envirnoment, and those "bad foreigners" whom we send all that oil money to certainly aren't any worse off.
 

RU482

Lifer
Apr 9, 2000
12,689
3
81
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Originally posted by: bonkers325
ethanol isnt green, its just shifting from oil to other fossil fuels. just like how hybrids arent green.

Hybrids ARE green because they make more efficient use of the energy available in fuel

anyone else see what's wrong with this statement?
 

RU482

Lifer
Apr 9, 2000
12,689
3
81
Originally posted by: KB
Ethanol from corn is a bad idea unless we are solely using leftover corn not used in the food supply. Otherwise we are just adding to food costs.

Ethanol from switchgrass grown on unfarmed land is a better idea. Solar is perhaps the best idea though.

If ethanol from Switchgrass was something that could be mass produced at a cost similar to corn based ethanol, they would be doing it.
 

Dunbar

Platinum Member
Feb 19, 2001
2,041
0
0
Originally posted by: redly1
If ethanol from Switchgrass was something that could be mass produced at a cost similar to corn based ethanol, they would be doing it.

I love when ethanol supporters wax poetic about cheap, plentiful switchgrass ethanol. Something that even proponents admit will require at least 5-10 years of R&D to maybe become a reality. But who doesn't love a dreamer?