Espresso Tax

[spaceman]

10 cents per cup?
i saw a snippet on Fox news yesterday about it.
Is this Seattle only?

Anyone else think this is ridiculous?

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Given the political landscape out there, no, this is not ridiculous

 

[gsaldivar]

I just love Schwarzenegger's take on "tax-and-spend" liberals:


ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: From the time they get up in the morning and flush the toilet, they're taxed. Then they go and get a coffee, they're taxed. They get into their car, they're taxed. They go to the gas station, they're taxed. They go for lunch, they're taxed.

And this goes on all day long, tax, tax, tax, tax, tax.

Before we promise anything to anyone right now, I think, stop, stop, stop, stop with the spending.

 

[0roo0roo]

funny how his main advisor is all about taxing then eh?

 

[Corn]

That's right folks, raising taxes helps the economy and keeps people employed.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Corn
That's right folks, raising taxes helps the economy and keeps people employed.

Well the civil servants need jobs too. Where'd they get the funds to pay them without raising the taxes?

 

[Moonbeam]

If we fire everybody working for the state we still have a deficit.

 

[aluehrs]

I heard if we fired every state worker cop/teacher etc that would only save 15 billion a year.

 

[Corn]

Well the civil servants need jobs too. Where'd they get the funds to pay them without raising the taxes?

MoonieTwin?, of course you are right. The way I see it, everyone should be a state employee and be taxed 100%. Imagine how well the economy would do then! Let the benevolent state clothe, feed, and shelter us, and if that doesn't make the people happy, lobotomize us all.

We'll realize Moonie's utopia someday, keep your eyes on the prize!

 

[Moonbeam]

The prize in in you, Corn, and that's where you can't look at all.

And of course you overlook the issue that the budget exceeds state workers wages. What's your answer to that? You're not supposed to go ad hominem when you get stuck. It's a known form of dishonesty. You don't want that.

 

[Wag]

I say we dress up as Colombians and dump coffee beans into Puget Sound.

 

[Zebo]

I don't drink coffee so I should'nt care BUT I never like consumption taxes a) it hurts the little guy disproportionally so as a percentage of his income. b) it hurts business which hurts the economy overall (now this might not be as true for an addictive product like coffee) c) Once we agree to them they will nickle and dime us to death on everything.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Corn

Well the civil servants need jobs too. Where'd they get the funds to pay them without raising the taxes?

MoonieTwin?, of course you are right. The way I see it, everyone should be a state employee and be taxed 100%. Imagine how well the economy would do then! Let the benevolent state clothe, feed, and shelter us, and if that doesn't make the people happy, lobotomize us all.

We'll realize Moonie's utopia someday, keep your eyes on the prize!

That's it... A CORNucopia of insight... we hire everyone on the state payroll, tax them 100%, they quit because they are not earning anything net, NO unemployment, No welfare (they had a job and quit) then the banks foreclose on all those homes, the state gets the homes under the new law, sells em to Texakins who move to CA. The ustabe CA's move to Texas and live the good life and attend SMU for free. I love it... Utopia... Now the new breed of Californian's pay off the deficit and balance the budget.. then we sneek back and file suit that we were forced to quit because of EEO provisions get our jobs back the Texakins go nuts with anger and leave and there it is... Thanks Corn..

 

[heartsurgeon]

If we fire everybody working for the state we still have a deficit.

is that really correct? i suppose it could be, but does that number include all the pension and benefit committments the
state has to its employees?

as an employer, i can tell you that the average employer pays an additional 20-25% in benefits above and beyond the years wages the employee is payed.
state employees, depending on their retirement/benefit packages can actually be costing much more than that.

the wages that people are paid does not reflect the actual cost of employing them. the actual cost is at least 25% more in direct benefits to that employee...there are even more costs in providing them the infrastructure (office, equipment, parking space, land consumed, electricity, phone, water, etc, etc,etc) Each employee SPENDS money doing their "work" as well.

shrinking the size of goverment saves much more money than just wages....assuming of coiurse that you can (every single private company seems to be able to restructure and cut employees when economic times are difficult..but i'm not sure the goverment has ever done that).

as for the coffee tax....just one small step on the road to a VAT tax (Europeans love VAT taxes....they slap a tax on anything that moves when it is sold, generates a lot of their tax base, and it is insidious..small increments in VAT taxes add HUGH amounts to the tax receipts because EVERYTHING is taxed)

VAT taxes also happen to be exceptional regressive (the poorest folks proportionally pay the most)
i would think a die hard liberal would be dead set against a regressive tax...but then again, most of em never met a tax they didn't like.

heck..why not just tax a cup of water (or any beverage containing 8 fluid ounces of water)! makes as much sense as taxing coffee (more sense actually, because it will bring in even more revenue)

 

[LunarRay]

Heart Surgeon,
Vat is not additive. What I mean is: Say a manufactured product has three tiers of manufacturing below it. At the end of the day the final consumer pays VAT tax but the tiers 'claw' back or off set the non paid and the non collected (assumes a reseller license) so the vat is only on the final sale. If it was exported generally, there is no VAT. So if you go to Europe ship the item home and file for a VAT refund.
This is how it was when I was there.

In the US at least CA. if you are a reseller you don't pay sales tax and if you sell to a reseller you don't collect tax.. same type thing.

 

[heartsurgeon]

VAT. A consumption tax which is levied at each stage of production based on the value added to the product at that stage.

from the European Union Web Site

"DEFINITION

Value Added Tax (VAT) is a general consumption tax assessed on the value added to goods and services.

It is a general tax that applies, in principle, to all commercial activities involving the production and distribution of goods and the provision of services. It is a consumption tax because it is borne ultimately by the final consumer. It is not a charge on companies. It is charged as a percentage of price, which means that the actual tax burden is visible at each stage in the production and distribution chain"

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

VAT. A consumption tax which is levied at each stage of production based on the value added to the product at that stage.

from the European Union Web Site

"DEFINITION

Value Added Tax (VAT) is a general consumption tax assessed on the value added to goods and services.

It is a general tax that applies, in principle, to all commercial activities involving the production and distribution of goods and the provision of services. It is a consumption tax because it is borne ultimately by the final consumer. It is not a charge on companies. It is charged as a percentage of price, which means that the actual tax burden is visible at each stage in the production and distribution chain"

It is visiable at each stage, but invisible to the consumer. The consumer has no idea how many times the product has been taxed, hiding the true cost of goverment.

 

[heartsurgeon]

invisible to the consumer. The consumer has no idea how many times the product has been taxed, hiding the true cost of goverment.

bingo!

and microscopic changes in the VAT generate huge revenues for the goverment because the tax gets "added" in at every level of production....

 

[LunarRay]

Heartsurgeon,

go to page 17 (it is pdf) and I don't know how to copy it.

I think you'll see what I mean when I said 'claw back'. IOW I get charged 50e vat and I charge 90e to my customer I get to claw back the 50e I paid and I send the 40e I collected and my supplier sends the 50 he collected.. total vat on transaction is 90e.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon

invisible to the consumer. The consumer has no idea how many times the product has been taxed, hiding the true cost of goverment.

bingo!

and microscopic changes in the VAT generate huge revenues for the goverment because the tax gets "added" in at every level of production....

Page 17 of the link above shows how I would know.

It show a final sale of 605e including 105e of VAT. If I know the VAT rate is 21% and the total is 605e why couldn't I calculate the VAT amount. 605e/1.21 = 500e product and the difference is VAT.

 

[Corn]

And of course you overlook the issue that the budget exceeds state workers wages.

Really, ya think? Golly gee, and here I was thinking that the budget *only* paid state workers wages. I had simply thought that all of the other entitlement and infrastructure costs were paid by a genie in a bottle..........I'm shocked to hear that it isn't, really.

What's your answer to that?

Here's a thought, how about cutting spending? How about reducing entitlements? How about sending illegals back to Mexico instead of allowing them to suckle at the tit of big government? Maybe the poor aren't paying their fair share of the tax burden. Hey, I'm not a resident of California, I don't know jack sh1t about your budget crisis and what kind of wasteful spending is responsible for your deficit. I'll leave that to Arnold to sort out.

 

[LunarRay]

The problem is Hollywood. We have too many actors here and they bring fantasy to the world but, we here believe it is real. Arnold is one of the illusions.
He will do an audit, find out where the $ goes and end the deficit. With 30m folks and 15m on some entitlement he is sure to not be elected unless they do a florida 2000 here... they are already trying by not having usual polling places..
Vote no on yes and Bustamante on no

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Corn

And of course you overlook the issue that the budget exceeds state workers wages.

Really, ya think? Golly gee, and here I was thinking that the budget *only* paid state workers wages. I had simply thought that all of the other entitlement and infrastructure costs were paid by a genie in a bottle..........I'm shocked to hear that it isn't, really.

What's your answer to that?

Here's a thought, how about cutting spending? How about reducing entitlements? How about sending illegals back to Mexico instead of allowing them to suckle at the tit of big government? Maybe the poor aren't paying their fair share of the tax burden. Hey, I'm not a resident of California, I don't know jack sh1t about your budget crisis and what kind of wasteful spending is responsible for your deficit. I'll leave that to Arnold to sort out.

Good point corn. Every entilment should require some community reciprocation. Wether it's welfare moms having to babysit or scrub graffiti off walls. Or MediCal recipiants doing some medical billing /hospital cleaning work. I never liked totally free because it develops and entilment attitude. Of course at the same time I think the goverment should also limit foriegn goods and services while people here are on the dole. Immigration is a tough issue. How do ou handle someone who wants to better themselves and move to the land of opportunity from some third world sh1thole? We were all immigrants at one time or another.

 

[heartsurgeon]

LunarRay

I get a headache trying to figure out anything the europeans do....
I will concede to your correctness about VAT. I still do believe that the VAT
is a source of enormous revenue for european goverments, and is highly regressive.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Corn

And of course you overlook the issue that the budget exceeds state workers wages.

Really, ya think? Golly gee, and here I was thinking that the budget *only* paid state workers wages. I had simply thought that all of the other entitlement and infrastructure costs were paid by a genie in a bottle..........I'm shocked to hear that it isn't, really.

What's your answer to that?

Here's a thought, how about cutting spending? How about reducing entitlements? How about sending illegals back to Mexico instead of allowing them to suckle at the tit of big government? Maybe the poor aren't paying their fair share of the tax burden. Hey, I'm not a resident of California, I don't know jack sh1t about your budget crisis and what kind of wasteful spending is responsible for your deficit. I'll leave that to Arnold to sort out.

Hehe, Corn. I mis-typed. It's the budget "deficit" that exceeds state workers pay. Fire all state employees and we still got a deficit.