Epox 4G4A+ Motherboard -- PC3200 support?

[zveruga]

Hi all, upon recommendation from a board member I am looking at this mobo for a 533FSB Pentium 4 2.2 setup. However the specs here say that the board supports PC2100 DDR. Does this mean it doesn't support PC2700 or Corsair 3200 DDR RAM? Will there be a speed increase if I install better than PC2100 RAM? Thanks

 

[cmdrdredd]

Intel's Specs don't "officially" call for support of PC2700/PC3200, but it works just fine. The RAM modules are exactly the same size and the pin count is the same too. You definately will get better performance and will be able to overclock higher.

 

[CrazySaint]

It doesn't "officially" support PC2700 RAM, but that hasn't stopped anybody from running their 4G4A boards at PC2700 If you get a 533MHz FSB chip, just run the mem ratio at 4:5 and - voila! - PC2700 You could even run the mem ratio at 3:4 for DDR344 or PC2830. For anything higher, you will need increase your FSB (overclock the sucker). Btw, the P4 2.26B is the slowest P4 chip with a 533MHz FSB.

 

[cmdrdredd]

like you said...it hasn't stopped anyone...the 1.8A and 1.6A can easily reach 133Mhz FSB (read 533)

 

[zveruga]

So what you all are saying is basically -- plugging in faster RAM isn't enough. BIOS settings need to be changed in order to take advantage of RAM speeds beyond 2100? So what that means it that PC3200 RAM isnt really 3200 until you oveclock it? or am i missing something...

 

[NOX]

Originally posted by: zveruga
So what you all are saying is basically -- plugging in faster RAM isn't enough. BIOS settings need to be changed in order to take advantage of RAM speeds beyond 2100? So what that means it that PC3200 RAM isnt really 3200 until you oveclock it? or am i missing something...

I wouldn?t say over clocking. More like changing a few settings in the bios to get your RAM to run at spec. Nothing is really being overclocked, it?s just that the board does not official support DDR333, DDR366, DDR400. But you can make it run at that speed by setting the memory ratio in the bios.

For example, I?m running a 2.26, 533FSB with PC3000 (DDR366). My memory ratio is 3:4 = 177MHz x2 = DDR354. As you can see my memory is not overclocked. It?s actually running a little under spec. If I did 1:1 ratio memory will run at DDR266, and 4:3 would be DDR200 (this is of course on my motherboard).

But basically the same principles apply.

 

[CrazySaint]

But, AFAIK, there are no mem ratios that allow you to run at DDR400 (PC3200) without increasing your FSB past 133MHz, which is overclocking. However, with the Northwoods, its a very safe overclock.

 

[zveruga]

I am really confused now.....

CrazySaint[/i]
But, AFAIK, there are no mem ratios that allow you to run at DDR400 (PC3200) without increasing your FSB past 133MHz, which is overclocking.[/quote]

I thought the fsb was 533Mhz -- or is it a typo?

Furthermore this is confusing to me -- if PC3200 memory runs at 400Mhz -- why have the 533Mhz FSB on the chip? My (perhaps erroneous) understanding was that FSB is how fast the processor sends information to the memory. Now, if I am sending at 533Mhz, but receiving at 400Mhz -- doesnt the whole system run at only 400Mhz?

Next the ratio calculation totally threw me off. when you say ratio 3:4 what are you comparing? I know this is probably a dumb question -- I don't need to be explained what a ratio is. I just need to know where the values are coming from (what are we comparing here?).

thanks...

 

[kgraeme]

The FSB of the board is 100 or 133. The CPU runs at 4x that amount. So on a 100MHZ bus they call it 400MHz and with 133 they call it 533MHz.

The memory, as DDR or Double Data Rate, runs at 2x the bus. So 100 FSB gives you 200MHz (DDR200) and 133 gives you 266MHz (DDR266).

The memory doesn't have to run at the same speed as the bus though. You can set a ratio to determine what speed the memory runs at compared to the bus. So in the numbers above, the ratio would be 1:1. Other ratios include 3:4, 4:5, and 4:3. The first number is the CPU, the second is the memory. The easiest way to figure the ratio is to divide the bus speed by the first number, multiply the result by the second number, then multiply that by 2 for the DDR. So at 133MHz FSB, you get:

4:3 = 533 CPU = DDR 200
1:1 = 533 CPU = DDR 266
4:5 = 533 CPU = DDR 333
3:4 = 533 CPU = DDR 355

For the PC2100, PC2700, PC3200, etc. you need to multiply the DDR speed by 8. So to figure PCxxxx from DDRxxx:

DDR 200 = PC1600
DDR 266 = PC2100
DDR 333 = PC2700
DDR 400 = PC3200

So what does all this mean? For the average user or the moderate overclocker, They can buy a 1.8A, run it at 533 with a 1:1 ratio and only need PC2100 memory to get a stable 2.4Ghz setup. PC2700 might give you a little room for higher than 133 and PC3200 is for people who always buy lobster on the menu, even when they aren't that hungry.

 

[billyjak]

The bus speed is quad pumped 400mz= 4x100bus=400mz , 533mz= 133x4=533mz
So run a 1.6 or 1.8 at 133bus or higher
Set the memory ratio and increase the FSB for even higher oclocks

 

[zveruga]

Also, since this is all a matter of setting the bios correctly, should i go with GEIL PC3500 DDR link, or is Corsair PC3200 still better? The Corsair memory I wanted (part number CMX512-3200C2) has latency of 2 and costs $50 more for 512MB then the GEIL ram which has latency of 2.5, but higher clock rating.

 

[ElFenix]

don't get geil its just more of that OCZ BS.

 

[zveruga]

Is the first number in the ratio FSB or DDR speed? I am getting conflicting info here...

4:5 = 533 CPU = DDR 333 <---assumes First number to be FSB, second DDR
4:3 = 533 CPU = DDR 345 <---assumes First number to be DDR the second CPU (and its 354 not 345 right?)

 

[ElFenix]

first is FSB, second is memory.

those ratios are ratios of the actual electical signal Hz. to get the actual signal cycle for p4's FSB divide by 4. to get the actual cycle rate for you memory divide by 2 if its "DDRXXX" or by 16 it its "PCXXXX"

 

[kgraeme]

Originally posted by: zveruga
Is the first number in the ratio FSB or DDR speed? I am getting conflicting info here...

4:5 = 533 CPU = DDR 333 <---assumes First number to be FSB, second DDR
4:3 = 533 CPU = DDR 345 <---assumes First number to be DDR the second CPU (and its 354 not 345 right?)

Well crap. I swear that I'm dyslexic sometimes. My mistake. I fixed my numbers above.

 

[zveruga]

kgraeme -- thanks for your help man, I was genuinely confused -- thats why i asked.

So should I set my ratio at 4:5 or 3:4? The latter exceeds the memory rating -- maybe its not wise?

Also (undrelatedly) will 350W PS do the job for this setup (2.2ghz 533FSB), or do I need 400W?

 

[kgraeme]

Originally posted by: zveruga
Also, since this is all a matter of setting the bios correctly, should i go with GEIL PC3500 DDR link, or is Corsair PC3200 still better? The Corsair memory I wanted (part number CMX512-3200C2) has latency of 2 and costs $50 more for 512MB then the GEIL ram which has latency of 2.5, but higher clock rating.

As for that, if you didn't get it from my post, I wouldn't get either. I'd just get some nice PC2100 or probably PC2700 for some headroom. Other than that, the numbers are jibber-jabber. They can claim it's PC3500 or 3200 all they want, but JEDEC hasn't set any such standard so there is no chance the memory is built to any real specifications.

Personally, I'd save my money. Of course, I'm more interested in a stable system than a highly overclocked one. Even then though, plenty of us have easily overclocked standard PC2100 and PC2700 to PC3200 speeds.

 

[kgraeme]

Originally posted by: zveruga
kgraeme -- thanks for your help man, I was genuinely confused -- thats why i asked.

So should I set my ratio at 4:5 or 3:4? The latter exceeds the memory rating -- maybe its not wise?

Also (undrelatedly) will 350W PS do the job for this setup (2.2ghz 533FSB), or do I need 400W?

What are you trying to do with it? Are you overclocking or stock? If it's a natural 2.2 GHz and you just want a 2.2, then buy some PC2100 and run the system at 133FSB (533) with a 1:1 divider (DDR266). If it's a 1.6A and you want 2.2, then buy some PC2700 and run at 138 with a 1:1 divider (~DDR276). If you want to overclock a 2.2, then you could try a 133FSB with 1:1 to see if you can make it to 2.9GHz. For more ideas, try asking in the CPU/Processors and Overclocking area.

 

[zveruga]

I am NOT looking to overclock -- I want a stable system!
This is what I want:

2.2Mhz CPU with 533FSB running at exactly that speed.
PC2700 DDR running at exactly that rating.

Will I be sacrificing stability if I take PC2700 DDR and set divider at 4:5 = DDR 333 = PC2700? or is this whole PC2700 "jibber jabber" and my system will crash at such a setting?

And I still have that power supply question (dont want to start a new thread with it). Is 350W enough?

 

[kgraeme]

The P4 2.2 processor is spec'd for a 400MHz bus (100MHz x4). If you install it on a 533MHz bus, then you are running it out of spec. The P4 2.26 is the version designed for the 533MHz bus (133 x4).

It's not a big deal, you can make a perfectly stable system with a 2.2 on a 533 bus, but you will be tweaking a tiny bit: The P4 2.2 has a 22x multiplier (100MHz bus x 22 = 2200MHz). If you just set the FSB to 133 in the bios and don't change the multiplier, the chip will try to run at 2.9MHz (133 x 22). I'm going to take a guess that it won't hit that, and since you said you are more interested in stability then I wouldn't try it either. What you need to do is set your multiplier down to 16 or 17 to get to 2.1 or 2.26. For the memory then, you are correct; using PC2700 set the memory ratio to 4:5 and it will be running at its native speed of DDR333 and will give you a slight bit of performance over PC2100.

The comment about "jibber-jabber" was in reference to any memory that claims to be PC3200 or some such. JEDEC determines the design specifications of standard SDRAM and they haven't yet set anything more than PC2700. That doesn't mean that memory manufacturers aren't clever and can't figure out on their own how to make memory run at the faster speed. They just aren't following any agreed upon specification. And unfortunately, there are companies out there that will happily claim that the moon is made of cheese and that their ram is PC3500 just to get your money. Corsair has a good reputation and their XMS3200 is probably great memory. I just don't personally care to spend the extra money for something that the boards aren't really designed for. (I do own a stick of Mushkin PC3000 that I bought to play with, so I do play the devil's advocate with myself at times.)

That brings up an interesting issue with the Epox 4G4A+. There have been many reports of people that can't get the system to work with two sticks. There has been some speculation that since Intel only claims the 845G chipset will run with PC2100, that the memory controller may have issues with multiple sticks running at faster speeds. I don't know the answer to that one, but it's an interesting hypothesis to answer some problems people like me have had with the board.

 

[CrazySaint]

Originally posted by: zveruga
I am NOT looking to overclock -- I want a stable system!
This is what I want:

Overclocking isn't necessarily for everybody, but there's no reason you can't get a perfectly stable system even if you overclock. In fact, in many people's minds, part of the definition of a successful overclock is that its every bit as stable as it was at stock settings.

2.2Mhz CPU with 533FSB running at exactly that speed.
PC2700 DDR running at exactly that rating.

As has been stated, the P4 2.2GHz chip runs at 400MHz FSB, if you want a retail 533MHz chip, get the 2.26B.

Will I be sacrificing stability if I take PC2700 DDR and set divider at 4:5 = DDR 333 = PC2700? or is this whole PC2700 "jibber jabber" and my system will crash at such a setting?

And I still have that power supply question (dont want to start a new thread with it). Is 350W enough?

There's no problem with running the 4:5 divider to get your RAM to run at PC2700, and yes, a 350W PSU should be plenty.

 

[kgraeme]

Oh yeah. I forgot to mention also that the 350W is fine. I'm using a 300W in my system with a 1.8A overclocked to 2.4.

 

[zveruga]

Wow the 2 highspeed memory stick problem for Epox is a major bummer. I liked that board a lot -- it has been recommended to me before, and the price seemed just right. ATA133 capability is nice also. If I do want to go ahead with PC2700+ DDR, and want the possibility of using 2 sticks -- what would be a good board? I want it to have ATA133.

Oh and I am buying a 2.26 533FSB p4 -- not the 400mhz one. I rounded off the clock speed because I didn't realize that .26 is the difference between the 2 models!! lol

 

[CrazySaint]

Originally posted by: zveruga
Wow the 2 highspeed memory stick problem for Epox is a major bummer. I liked that board a lot -- it has been recommended to me before, and the price seemed just right. ATA133 capability is nice also. If I do want to go ahead with PC2700+ DDR, and want the possibility of using 2 sticks -- what would be a good board? I want it to have ATA133.

Oh and I am buying a 2.26 533FSB p4 -- not the 400mhz one. I rounded off the clock speed because I didn't realize that .26 is the difference between the 2 models!! lol

AFAIK, the only problem with using two sticks is that it really limits your ability to OC, but if you're not going to OC then you should be able to run two sticks just fine.

 

[kgraeme]

Recommending boards with authority can be a bit tricky, even for professional reviewers. I bought an Iwill KK266-R based on the review and high praise from Anand. It even was all the talk for a while as being the best KT133A board to get. For me it was a miserable experience.

The 4G4A+ has a lot going for it, and I was able to get a nice system running even with two sticks of memory. But it had enough little issues that I just gave up and sent it back. I bought an ASUS P4B533 and have been quite happy. It's not quite as feature-rich as the Epox board, but it's stable and hasn't had any strange issues. I wish I had been able to find a P4B533-E board at a good price from a vendor I trust, but I'm happy with what I bought.

My two top choices for brands are ASUS and Abit. And Abit can be a gamble at times. If you are feeling particularly cautious, you could buy and Intel brand board. They have the fewest overclocking niceties, but they are almost always the most stable system.