EPA says Fiat Chrysler cheated on emissions testing

[Puffnstuff]

Well here we go again and this time Fiat Chrysler has been accused by the EPA and CARB of rigging software. I've noticed a trend in that everyone accused of cheating is not using DEF injections. Do you think that this trend will continue until all diesel manufacturers are forced to use them adding to the operational costs of driving one?

Excerpt:
Environmental regulators accused automaker Fiat Chrysler of installing software on 100,000 diesel-powered cars and trucks that they say is cheating on emissions tests.
The accusation by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board (CARB) is similar to the scandal that has plagued automaker Volkswagen for more than a year.


Just this week, Volkswagen agreed to pay $4.3 billion to settle charges that it cheated on diesel emissions tests with more than 590,000 diesel-powered U.S. cars. The Justice Department also indicted six Volkswagen executives on Wednesday.

 

[sdifox]

Maybe it is hightime EPA test every bloody model of automobiles and have the automakers foot the bill?

Diesel without DEF should be banned.

 

[K1052]

I like how the company is betting that Trump's EPA won't pursue action against them for clear violations.
Now not only will people be suing the manufacturer they'll also be suing the EPA to enforce the law.

At least there is still CARB which wields a lot of power. Not being able to sell in CA constitutes a problem for automakers...

 

[cbrunny]

Happy that my GM diesel uses DEF and hasn't been impacted (yet).

 

[brycejones]

Just more job killing EPA eco kook gobbledygook. We should outsource the EPA to private companies. Lots of really smart people work at Exxon they could greatly simplify the regulations and get to breathing the best air. You will get so tired of breathing the best air.

 

[Thump553]

Just more job killing EPA eco kook gobbledygook. We should outsource the EPA to private companies. Lots of really smart people work at Exxon they could greatly simplify the regulations and get to breathing the best air. You will get so tired of breathing the best air.

Along those lines the Fiat/Chrysler spokesperson was cited in my morning paper as saying they will appeal to the new administration once Trump grabs the reins of power. I'd give it a 50/50 chance The Donald finds some way of flushing these clean air regs-because they are "job killing."

 

[hal2kilo]

Happy that my GM diesel uses DEF and hasn't been impacted (yet).

My Grand Cherokee has a DEF system (uses a Torrisimo V6). Not sure how far back they are going. Cummins?

 

[chucky2]

I like how the company is betting that Trump's EPA won't pursue action against them for clear violations.
Now not only will people be suing the manufacturer they'll also be suing the EPA to enforce the law.

At least there is still CARB which wields a lot of power. Not being able to sell in CA constitutes a problem for automakers...

CARB for light duty vehicles is probably the last entity at this point we want effectively setting US emissions guidelines. We literally have at least half of the US paying for the CARB doctrine. That's not really a good thing...

 

[cliftonite]

CARB for light duty vehicles is probably the last entity at this point we want effectively setting US emissions guidelines. We literally have at least half of the US paying for the CARB doctrine. That's not really a good thing...

No one is forcing them to sell their cars in California.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

DEF only reduces NOx emissions.

 

[K1052]

CARB for light duty vehicles is probably the last entity at this point we want effectively setting US emissions guidelines. We literally have at least half of the US paying for the CARB doctrine. That's not really a good thing...

Being a live human with lungs I think it's a pretty good thing. If some automakers don't like it they can write off the west coast as a market for their products, there will be plenty of people lined up behind them to do business.

 

[Wuzup101]

My state adopted the CARB standards... luckily when they do my state inspection they miss things like not having cats on cars. Ah the gubment...

 

[1prophet]

Along those lines the Fiat/Chrysler spokesperson was cited in my morning paper as saying they will appeal to the new administration once Trump grabs the reins of power. I'd give it a 50/50 chance The Donald finds some way of flushing these clean air regs-because they are "job killing."

Only reason they are "job killing" is because you allow corporate America to outsource its pollution in exchange for cheap prices,

(or in the case of emissions cheating because the general population refuses to pay for, put up with possible performance issues and maintain properly what truly effective emission controls would entail)

We can't have our cake and eat it to, claiming to be green because we pile on regulation after regulation on domestic based companies but refuse to pay for it in higher prices because foreign countries don't have to meet many of standards and are allowed to undercut domestic prices,

While it is expected from Trump types and conservative types, what is truly sad is the hypocrisy of many so called liberals including ones on this forum that cry out for more stringent environmental rules, more free healthcare, free college, 15 dollar an hour minimum wage, etc. but when it comes down to reaching in their pockets they run to the cheapest price possible usually on the back of some foreigner working in deplorable conditions not fit for a dog and then rationalize it because of reasons.

 

[K1052]

Only reason they are "job killing" is because you allow corporate America to outsource its pollution in exchange for cheap prices,

(or in the case of emissions cheating because the general population refuses to pay for, put up with possible performance issues and maintain properly what truly effective emission controls would entail)

We can't have our cake and eat it to, claiming to be green because we pile on regulation after regulation on domestic based companies but refuse to pay for it in higher prices because foreign countries don't have to meet many of standards and are allowed to undercut domestic prices,

While it is expected from Trump types and conservative types, what is truly sad is the hypocrisy of many so called liberals including ones on this forum that cry out for more stringent environmental rules, more free healthcare, free college, 15 dollar an hour minimum wage, etc. but when it comes down to reaching in their pockets they run to the cheapest price possible usually on the back of some foreigner working in deplorable conditions not fit for a dog and then rationalize it because of reasons.

That's quite the set of rhetorical gymnastics to blame liberals for the decision of private companies to defraud their customers.

 

[brycejones]

Only reason they are "job killing" is because you allow corporate America to outsource its pollution in exchange for cheap prices,

(or in the case of emissions cheating because the general population refuses to pay for, put up with possible performance issues and maintain properly what truly effective emission controls would entail)

We can't have our cake and eat it to, claiming to be green because we pile on regulation after regulation on domestic based companies but refuse to pay for it in higher prices because foreign countries don't have to meet many of standards and are allowed to undercut domestic prices,

While it is expected from Trump types and conservative types, what is truly sad is the hypocrisy of many so called liberals including ones on this forum that cry out for more stringent environmental rules, more free healthcare, free college, 15 dollar an hour minimum wage, etc. but when it comes down to reaching in their pockets they run to the cheapest price possible usually on the back of some foreigner working in deplorable conditions not fit for a dog and then rationalize it because of reasons.

I'll take things people say on crack for $1000 Alex.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

"
Fiat Chrysler said it believes its emission control systems meet the applicable regulations.

It said the software on its engines is an allowable way to meet emissions rules. The company said it is not there to cheat on emissions tests, but rather to protect the engine from damage.

But the EPA said that since the software had not be disclosed to the EPA, that puts Fiat Chrysler is in violation of the Clean Air Act, even if it wasn't seeking to cheat on emissions tests."

If the engines passed the EPA tests then wtf is the problem? The EPA didn't like the way the tests were passed?

 

[brycejones]

"
Fiat Chrysler said it believes its emission control systems meet the applicable regulations.

It said the software on its engines is an allowable way to meet emissions rules. The company said it is not there to cheat on emissions tests, but rather to protect the engine from damage.

But the EPA said that since the software had not be disclosed to the EPA, that puts Fiat Chrysler is in violation of the Clean Air Act, even if it wasn't seeking to cheat on emissions tests."

If the engines passed the EPA tests then wtf is the problem? The EPA didn't like the way the tests were passed?

VW passed the tests because of the software they had installed. So yes there is an issue with how the tests were passed. Is it really that hard to figure out why the EPA would want to investigate FCA as well for the same issue?

 

[K1052]

"

If the engines passed the EPA tests then wtf is the problem? The EPA didn't like the way the tests were passed?

In large part automakers are allowed to do their own tests and self certify to the EPA that they are compliant. If their testing regime was designed not to engage this mode that turns off the emissions controls but they end up turning off a lot during normal customer operation that's going to be a problem. Also it seems that the existence of the software was not disclosed to the EPA either or their models for how often it would be active which is a no-no.

I think automaker self certification should end and the EPA simply conduct regular field tests on random production vehicles. There will be no point in trying to game the system if you know that you'll be caught.

 

[hal2kilo]

I'll take things people say on crack for $1000 Alex.

lol

 

[1sikbITCH]

So what? On Jan 20 Trump will burn the EPA to the ground and apologize to Fiat via Twitter. Seems pointless to go thru this now.

 

[Puffnstuff]

Could Trump be the first president to issue pardons via Twitter?

 

[chucky2]

No one is forcing them to sell their cars in California.

True, however there are other states which essentially adopt what CARB does, so what we end up getting is manufacturers have to follow CARB and US Fed. I'm generally for states rights so I don't knock CARB doing this (it's their F'd up state so generally it's their problem if they've chosen an electrification nazi to head their ARB), however given the breadth of vehicles in the US and the impact CARB has had on the light duty Clean Diesel market - which means the impact they've had on everyone buying the far shittier gas options because their head nazi must have electric and won't let diesel get a foothold in the market to stymie that - I'm pretty sure it's not doing anyone any favors.

Being a live human with lungs I think it's a pretty good thing. If some automakers don't like it they can write off the west coast as a market for their products, there will be plenty of people lined up behind them to do business.

It's not just the west coast though, it's the entire US (as noted above). There is nothing wrong with Euro V w/ DPF, or Euro VI (DPF would probably be understood to be necessary with Euro VI). People aren't dropping dead in EU where they have plenty of Euro III and IV diesel vehicles running around (and there, where fuel prices are truly high, defeating fuel economy reducing ((but also emission reducing)) things like the DPF and/or EGR is far more common than here). This is something Trump could do fairly easy and it'd be a bonus for essentially everyone involve: Homogenize light duty fleet emission standards and testing protocols across the US and EU. Adopt EU diesel emission regs. Here is the catch though: I though the SC ruled that an entity like CARB can impose stricter than Fed emission standards for products entering their state. So until that changes, which it won't, we all continue to get F'd because of CARB. Oh well, more polluting GDI w/ worse mileage for all I guess (and wonder of wonders, CARB was just fine looking the other way on particulate emissions of GDI knowing how much ultrafine they put out...interesting eh?)...

 

[K1052]

It's not just the west coast though, it's the entire US (as noted above). There is nothing wrong with Euro V w/ DPF, or Euro VI (DPF would probably be understood to be necessary with Euro VI). People aren't dropping dead in EU where they have plenty of Euro III and IV diesel vehicles running around (and there, where fuel prices are truly high, defeating fuel economy reducing ((but also emission reducing)) things like the DPF and/or EGR is far more common than here). This is something Trump could do fairly easy and it'd be a bonus for essentially everyone involve: Homogenize light duty fleet emission standards and testing protocols across the US and EU. Adopt EU diesel emission regs. Here is the catch though: I though the SC ruled that an entity like CARB can impose stricter than Fed emission standards for products entering their state. So until that changes, which it won't, we all continue to get F'd because of CARB. Oh well, more polluting GDI w/ worse mileage for all I guess (and wonder of wonders, CARB was just fine looking the other way on particulate emissions of GDI knowing how much ultrafine they put out...interesting eh?)...

Yes, CARB can legally do it's own thing and given the number of states that have also pegged their requirements to their standards it will still be a force the automakers have to deal with. If anything I'd expect to see them become even more agressive over the next few years given that the EPA will soon be trying to change course in the opposite direction.

 

[chucky2]

Yes, CARB can legally do it's own thing and given the number of states that have also pegged their requirements to their standards it will still be a force the automakers have to deal with. If anything I'd expect to see them become even more agressive over the next few years given that the EPA will soon be trying to change course in the opposite direction.

Well, CARB is LEV III, which again, just coincidentally, didn't bother putting particle limits that would actually cause GDI to have to do anything real, which, again, gives a pass to GDI when they intentionally hamstrung diesel (given the mileage benefits). With the few other states that basically do what CARB nazi does, you're talking a very significant amount of lost market potential. If it was just not being able to sell in CA, that'd be one thing. We don't have that one thing though...

 

[master_shake_]

with any luck this may be the thing that kills chrysler FOREVER!