EPA Fuel Estimates Off by 50%?

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Vic
I think there is no question that the EPA ratings system need to be updated to reflect both modern vehicles and modern driving habits. As to hybrids, I have been arguing for years that they are scams that don't get anywhere near their rated mileage. I'm sure there are plenty of Toyota apologists here, so I would ask them to just imagine how they would feel if GM had been taking advantage of this same loophole for their own profit.

GM and Ford use a different loopholes:
1) reliance on behemoth vehicles sidesteps fleet efficiency standards
2) flex fuel vehicles where the buyers have consumed orders of magnitude more ethanol than the engine
3) Congressional protectionism via Republicans (in general) and MI Democrats (in particular)

My first new car was an '95 Acura Integra GSR 5spd (25/31 sticker). I averaged 30 in mixed driving over 7 years.

My second car was a '02 Acura TL-S auto (19/29). I average 28mpg in mixed driving over 3 years.

Although Toyota and Honda are prohibited from posting "real-world" mileage on their cars, I doubt there's a prohibition against displaying it somewhere in the showroom AND informing their sales staff to "keep it real" with the customer. But let's say you choose NOT to buy a hybrid from them. They still offer "typically" the top gasoline vehicle in each segment.

The Big Two and a Half just plain sux. They are dependent on selling vehicles that get atrocious mileage by EPA sticker . . . not to mention how badly they fare on the road. It really is sad that domestic automakers' best ideas:
1) offer vehicles that use a fuel that's scarcely available and even available fuel is highly subsidized
2) are limited to claiming their CURRENT vehicles don't waste as much fuel as their PREVIOUS vehicles
3) have largely ceded hybrids to the imports but probably trail in the development of hydrogren fuel cell vehicles as well.

The worst part about #3 is that even if GM (or far less likely Ford) "wins" the race to fuel cells . . . there probably won't be an infrastructure to support them.

 

[marincounty]

Originally posted by: B00ne

Originally posted by: Future Shock

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You're against Bush when he said we must lessen our dependence on Oil???

Hybrids at least do that a little bit and every little bit helps, right???

No, hybrids do NOT help. They are a consumeristic fad. The only thing that will possibly help is less consumption, not more.

And quit using complex question, asshole. You're a fsckin' moron and I'm sick of it. Your trollish bullsh!t needs to be banned, but you obviously have the favor of the mods and you abuse that as much as possible. As such, you're far, far worse than Riporin ever was.

"No, hybrids do NOT help. "

Really?

So all the auto makers should just be cranking out giant Gas sucking SUV's???

Such :heart: I love you too :lips:

Actually, hybrids can really help with CERTAIN styles of driving - most noticeably in stop and go city traffic, where their regenerative braking can help conserve energy, and their electric engines can prevent the petrol engine from running at all at stop lights.

But frankly, on flatish highway miles, hybrids DON'T really help, especially if the vehicle in question has a qualitiy 6 speed or greater transmission. And they add a great deal of weight, complexity, and manufacturing cost to the vehicle.

Diesels, on the other hand, are the exact opposite - they really waste fuel accellerating up to speed, and so are very inefficient at stop and go traffic. But they are VERY efficient at the right rpms on the highway...

I wonder what a diesel/electric hybrid would do for mpg? I imagine it could be difficult to build, as a good turbodiesel has a specific ignition proceedure and warm-up cycle you should follow - and a hybrid needs to be able to cut the petrol engine out and back in quickly. Still...it would be interesting to see if such a hybrid was the best of both worlds...

Future Shock

You are most certainly right.
A german car Magazine did a comparison Lexus RX400h (211hp) vs Mercedes M 320CDI (224hp) in a coast to coast drive in the US. The Lexus average 10.2 l/100km of gas on the whole trip while the diesel Benz was even better with 9.1 l/100km. However there was very little city driving involved - but they did measure the city driving seperately which turned out to 11.5l for the hybrid and 11.7l for the diesel. (german Text)

Here is a diesel-hybrid concept which is actually pretty fast and supposed to consume 25% less than the pure diesel.

Notice how the report didn't indicate anything about the pollution created by the hybrid diesel. Diesels are causing lots of lung disease and cancer.

http://www.nrdc.org/air/transportation/ebd/chap2.asp
The U.S. EPA suggests that a cancer risk may be "negligible" if a substance induces one excess cancer out of a million people exposed over a lifetime. Using the mean value in Dr. Hattis's uncertainty distribution for diesel exhaust potency, the expectation is that exposure to the average levels of diesel exhaust found in California-of 1.54 µ/m³ of diesel exhaust-is likely to result in an excess risk over a person's lifetime of about 350 cancers per million exposed.55 This risk is far above U.S. EPA's "negligible risk" level. Applying these risk estimates, over a lifetime, exposure to diesel exhaust may cause 12,000 or more additional cancer cases in California alone.56 The potential health risks nationally are staggering.

Friends don't let friends drive diesels.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: marincounty

Originally posted by: B00ne

Originally posted by: Future Shock

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You're against Bush when he said we must lessen our dependence on Oil???

Hybrids at least do that a little bit and every little bit helps, right???

No, hybrids do NOT help. They are a consumeristic fad. The only thing that will possibly help is less consumption, not more.

And quit using complex question, asshole. You're a fsckin' moron and I'm sick of it. Your trollish bullsh!t needs to be banned, but you obviously have the favor of the mods and you abuse that as much as possible. As such, you're far, far worse than Riporin ever was.

"No, hybrids do NOT help. "

Really?

So all the auto makers should just be cranking out giant Gas sucking SUV's???

Such :heart: I love you too :lips:

Actually, hybrids can really help with CERTAIN styles of driving - most noticeably in stop and go city traffic, where their regenerative braking can help conserve energy, and their electric engines can prevent the petrol engine from running at all at stop lights.

But frankly, on flatish highway miles, hybrids DON'T really help, especially if the vehicle in question has a qualitiy 6 speed or greater transmission. And they add a great deal of weight, complexity, and manufacturing cost to the vehicle.

Diesels, on the other hand, are the exact opposite - they really waste fuel accellerating up to speed, and so are very inefficient at stop and go traffic. But they are VERY efficient at the right rpms on the highway...

I wonder what a diesel/electric hybrid would do for mpg? I imagine it could be difficult to build, as a good turbodiesel has a specific ignition proceedure and warm-up cycle you should follow - and a hybrid needs to be able to cut the petrol engine out and back in quickly. Still...it would be interesting to see if such a hybrid was the best of both worlds...

Future Shock

You are most certainly right.
A german car Magazine did a comparison Lexus RX400h (211hp) vs Mercedes M 320CDI (224hp) in a coast to coast drive in the US. The Lexus average 10.2 l/100km of gas on the whole trip while the diesel Benz was even better with 9.1 l/100km. However there was very little city driving involved - but they did measure the city driving seperately which turned out to 11.5l for the hybrid and 11.7l for the diesel. (german Text)

Here is a diesel-hybrid concept which is actually pretty fast and supposed to consume 25% less than the pure diesel.

Notice how the report didn't indicate anything about the pollution created by the hybrid diesel. Diesels are causing lots of lung disease and cancer.

http://www.nrdc.org/air/transportation/ebd/chap2.asp
The U.S. EPA suggests that a cancer risk may be "negligible" if a substance induces one excess cancer out of a million people exposed over a lifetime. Using the mean value in Dr. Hattis's uncertainty distribution for diesel exhaust potency, the expectation is that exposure to the average levels of diesel exhaust found in California-of 1.54 µ/m³ of diesel exhaust-is likely to result in an excess risk over a person's lifetime of about 350 cancers per million exposed.55 This risk is far above U.S. EPA's "negligible risk" level. Applying these risk estimates, over a lifetime, exposure to diesel exhaust may cause 12,000 or more additional cancer cases in California alone.56 The potential health risks nationally are staggering.

Friends don't let friends drive diesels.

I know you hate deisels, but given the new low sulfer diesels and deisel emission requirements, I think you complaints are going to be much smaller now.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: Vic
I think there is no question that the EPA ratings system need to be updated to reflect both modern vehicles and modern driving habits. As to hybrids, I have been arguing for years that they are scams that don't get anywhere near their rated mileage. I'm sure there are plenty of Toyota apologists here, so I would ask them to just imagine how they would feel if GM had been taking advantage of this same loophole for their own profit.

GM and Ford use a different loopholes:
1) reliance on behemoth vehicles sidesteps fleet efficiency standards
2) flex fuel vehicles where the buyers have consumed orders of magnitude more ethanol than the engine
3) Congressional protectionism via Republicans (in general) and MI Democrats (in particular)

My first new car was an '95 Acura Integra GSR 5spd (25/31 sticker). I averaged 30 in mixed driving over 7 years.

My second car was a '02 Acura TL-S auto (19/29). I average 28mpg in mixed driving over 3 years.

Although Toyota and Honda are prohibited from posting "real-world" mileage on their cars, I doubt there's a prohibition against displaying it somewhere in the showroom AND informing their sales staff to "keep it real" with the customer. But let's say you choose NOT to buy a hybrid from them. They still offer "typically" the top gasoline vehicle in each segment.

The Big Two and a Half just plain sux. They are dependent on selling vehicles that get atrocious mileage by EPA sticker . . . not to mention how badly they fare on the road. It really is sad that domestic automakers' best ideas:
1) offer vehicles that use a fuel that's scarcely available and even available fuel is highly subsidized
2) are limited to claiming their CURRENT vehicles don't waste as much fuel as their PREVIOUS vehicles
3) have largely ceded hybrids to the imports but probably trail in the development of hydrogren fuel cell vehicles as well.

The worst part about #3 is that even if GM (or far less likely Ford) "wins" the race to fuel cells . . . there probably won't be an infrastructure to support them.

You will be glad to know all suvs are now covered by cafe, even the big ones. But given consumer demand for more fuel effecient vehicles, I think cafe will be largely irrelevent in a few years.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: B00ne

Originally posted by: Future Shock

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You're against Bush when he said we must lessen our dependence on Oil???

Hybrids at least do that a little bit and every little bit helps, right???

No, hybrids do NOT help. They are a consumeristic fad. The only thing that will possibly help is less consumption, not more.

And quit using complex question, asshole. You're a fsckin' moron and I'm sick of it. Your trollish bullsh!t needs to be banned, but you obviously have the favor of the mods and you abuse that as much as possible. As such, you're far, far worse than Riporin ever was.

"No, hybrids do NOT help. "

Really?

So all the auto makers should just be cranking out giant Gas sucking SUV's???

Such :heart: I love you too :lips:

Actually, hybrids can really help with CERTAIN styles of driving - most noticeably in stop and go city traffic, where their regenerative braking can help conserve energy, and their electric engines can prevent the petrol engine from running at all at stop lights.

But frankly, on flatish highway miles, hybrids DON'T really help, especially if the vehicle in question has a qualitiy 6 speed or greater transmission. And they add a great deal of weight, complexity, and manufacturing cost to the vehicle.

Diesels, on the other hand, are the exact opposite - they really waste fuel accellerating up to speed, and so are very inefficient at stop and go traffic. But they are VERY efficient at the right rpms on the highway...

I wonder what a diesel/electric hybrid would do for mpg? I imagine it could be difficult to build, as a good turbodiesel has a specific ignition proceedure and warm-up cycle you should follow - and a hybrid needs to be able to cut the petrol engine out and back in quickly. Still...it would be interesting to see if such a hybrid was the best of both worlds...

Future Shock

You are most certainly right.
A german car Magazine did a comparison Lexus RX400h (211hp) vs Mercedes M 320CDI (224hp) in a coast to coast drive in the US. The Lexus average 10.2 l/100km of gas on the whole trip while the diesel Benz was even better with 9.1 l/100km. However there was very little city driving involved - but they did measure the city driving seperately which turned out to 11.5l for the hybrid and 11.7l for the diesel. (german Text)

Here is a diesel-hybrid concept which is actually pretty fast and supposed to consume 25% less than the pure diesel.

That seems like an odd comparison considering the Lexus:
1) rated at 268hp NOT 211 and has TWO high-torque electric motors
2) by the numbers achieves 33% better mileage than the gasoline only RX330 (the best-selling luxury SUV on the market)
3) qualifies as Super Ultra Low Emissions SULEV . . . I doubt the MB diesel can even be sold in CA
4) accelerates from 0-60 in 7.3sec . . . on par with the ML500 (previous generation)

I think one of the most common themes I hear from "smart" hybrid buyers is that they SLOW down in their current vehicles. Although that technique would work in a Ford Explorer or Chevy Tahoe, having that little mpg gauge appears to help. I guess BMW drivers have problems with small print.

 

[desy]

I watched a show where they took two cars, a civc and a civic hybrid coast to coast and while neither car got the EPA sticker the spread between the two % wise held true the hybrid did get 25% better than the regular civic or whatever it was.
So same weather traffic mountains whatever the fuel effeciency held up.
Hybrids will cost more all emerging tech does, remember what a brick the cell phone was with sh1tty battery life?
Bio-deisel will work great in a hybrid and the environment, looking forward to the next 5 yrs in car tech I tell yah, its going to be exciting.

"The Big Two and a Half just plain sux. They are dependent on selling vehicles that get atrocious mileage by EPA sticker . . . not to mention how badly they fare on the road."

As opposed to Japanese manufacture who lie about their horse power ratings? I don't sweat a mile or two per gallon in the same class of vehicle. The better argument is how till just recently NA manufacture has ignored the small car segment . . .

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Charrison,
I get very little solace in closing the Hummer loophole b/c the standard is going to be so low that most of the behemoths will require little more than a high-flow intake to slide over.

Smaller SUVs will still be judged on a different standard than passenger cars so that's still a loophole. All SUVs, light trucks, minivans should be reclassified as passenger vehicles and meet the same standard as their car counterparts.

If EPA testing changes are not applied to CAFE (which is how I understand it will occur) . . . what's the point . . . other than going through the motions?


I do agree with you that SUSTAINED high fuel prices will likely change consumer behaviors. But despite my protestations . . . I would hate to see Ford or GM destroyed b/c the product offerings are so wasteful. Considering the US Congress basically "enabled" them, something should be done to help them out . . . without encouraging them to continue their addiction to trucks.

Having said all that . . . I'm looking to buy a diesel for the wife to replace our last vestige of domestic nameplates . . . Lincoln LS. If I had the money it would probably be an E-Class diesel and I would cook the stuff in the backyard.

But deep in my heart I really want this kind of conversion . . . must be nice.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: desy
I watched a show where they took two cars, a civc and a civic hybrid coast to coast and while neither car got the EPA sticker the spread between the two % wise held true the hybrid did get 25% better than the regular civic or whatever it was.
So same weather traffic mountains whatever the fuel effeciency held up.
Hybrids will cost more all emerging tech does, remember what a brick the cell phone was with sh1tty battery life?
Bio-deisel will work great in a hybrid and the environment, looking forward to the next 5 yrs in car tech I tell yah, its going to be exciting.

"The Big Two and a Half just plain sux. They are dependent on selling vehicles that get atrocious mileage by EPA sticker . . . not to mention how badly they fare on the road."

As opposed to Japanese manufacture who lie about their horse power ratings? I don't sweat a mile or two per gallon in the same class of vehicle. The better argument is how till just recently NA manufacture has ignored the small car segment . . .

I hope you aren't trying to say domestics haven't inflated hp numbers? Aside from Mazda's RX8 debacle (which is technically a Ford shop), I doubt imports hp numbers differ much from domestic's take on reality. In fact, considering how anemic the hp (and worse yet torque) numbers tend to be . . . it's suprising they don't lie MORE.

Having said that it is at least "curious" that Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus took such big hits when SAE(?) was revised. My TL-S lost over 10hp. Fortunately, I've got intake, headers, exhaust, and pulleys. Would toss on a supercharger but Acura trannies aren't exactly "masculine."

But point taken that domestics basically gave up on small cars (and arguably mid-size) until the past few years. I seriously doubt Japan Inc is going to pause for domestics to catch up. Worse yet, I've heard more than one writer call the Toyota Avalon, "the Buick GM would build if it knew how to build a good large car."

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
Charrison,
I get very little solace in closing the Hummer loophole b/c the standard is going to be so low that most of the behemoths will require little more than a high-flow intake to slide over.

Smaller SUVs will still be judged on a different standard than passenger cars so that's still a loophole. All SUVs, light trucks, minivans should be reclassified as passenger vehicles and meet the same standard as their car counterparts.

If EPA testing changes are not applied to CAFE (which is how I understand it will occur) . . . what's the point . . . other than going through the motions?


I do agree with you that SUSTAINED high fuel prices will likely change consumer behaviors. But despite my protestations . . . I would hate to see Ford or GM destroyed b/c the product offerings are so wasteful. Considering the US Congress basically "enabled" them, something should be done to help them out . . . without encouraging them to continue their addiction to trucks.

Having said all that . . . I'm looking to buy a diesel for the wife to replace our last vestige of domestic nameplates . . . Lincoln LS. If I had the money it would probably be an E-Class diesel and I would cook the stuff in the backyard.

But deep in my heart I really want this kind of conversion . . . must be nice.

What really hurt ford and Gm was their lack of flexible manufacturing. SUVs sales plummented, but they could not easily switch to making something else. THeir suv sales are in the tank, but their car sales are doing pretty good right now.

 

[desy]

You didn't know?
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...ON03/603140315&SearchID=73238452103641


"Toyota is downgrading the horsepower numbers on many of its 2006 Toyota, Lexus and Scion models. The Toyota Camry, for example, slipped from 210 to 190 -- which may not sound like a lot until you think about the power of 20 horses saddled for the races.

Meanwhile, Honda and Acura also slipped a few notches.

"Our engines are the same, and even our new numbers are respectable," Chuck Schifsky, a Honda spokesman told me.

It's the advertising that's changed and not the engines, you see. And that's because Toyota and Honda touted their vehicles as being more powerful than they are, in fact.

All the automakers are using new testing criteria for horsepower established by the Society for Automotive Engineers, which are more specific than previous standards.

Or you could argue that the Japanese sweetened their horsepower numbers, creating the impression of technological superiority and mucho muscle.

They say it's all in the calibrations -- technical mumbo-jumbo -- and that they opted to re-test their vehicles all at once, and posting the results in a demonstration of forthrightness.

But any way you look at it, this recent re-jiggering of technical horsepower standards results in a rare Detroit moment to savor."