Environmentalist whacko's......

futuristicmonkey

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,031
0
76
So I'm watching Global news the other day.....and there seems to be some new nonsense called 'Ethical' savings bonds...or something like that (it's a Canadian thing).

"....will not invest your money in environmentally-unfriendly areas such as: fossil fuels, nuclear power, and the military..."

...I was shocked. We can get the same amount of energy from a FY2003 $7 USD fuel rod as a ton of coal, while not spewing multiple tons of those nasty oxides into the atmosphere -- only steam -- and these idiots are trying to brainwash people with their FUD.

Nuclear power is the cleanest, cheapest, most reliable, and safest energy source we have. It doesn't pollute like coal or oil; and doesn't require 90,000 tons of coal per day or any of our precious oil. You can get more power than the Limestone hydro station, in northern Manitoba, with only two CANDU 6-class reactors -- and you don't need to mess with fish breeding or w/e and you don't need to flood the land. You see, hydro power isn't completely clean either -- on the Canadian Shield thousands of years of peat has built up which absorbs CO2, and when you flood the land the peat dies and starts to emit that CO2 back into the atmosphere. Also, the power density of nuke power is only about a thousand times that of wind turbines/solar power.

What about spent fuel? It would be a non-issue if our government allowed us to employ breeder reactors, which a CANDU can be configured as. This would also turn a 150-year supply of fissile uranium into about a 150 million year supply of fissile plutonium.

Safe? Nuclear reactors, if built and operated by competent people, are the safest things there are. Forget about Chernobyl -- in layman's terms they attempted to put out a fire with a gasoline injection (they had graphite extenders on their control rods -- graphite was the moderator in the RBMK reactor) while they had a good supply of pure oxygen lying around (virtually every safety system was designed for nominal conditions; and they weren't even operational during the test).

I seriously became pissed off when I saw this. I just don't know how uneducated people like this can be taken seriously without even having their 'data' looked over. F*cking idiots....

-ben
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
I too support nuclear reactors, provided the management doesn't try for cost-cutting measures at the cost of safety. I would also like to see the use of breeder reactors. They would allow for the extraction of additional energy from a given quantity of uranium ore. They're concerned about the use of the breeder reactors for use in weapons. The thing is, alright, we take civilian-level breeders offline. You know what? If the government wants material for nuclear weapons, they're going to get it anyway. It's like a gun ban - the civilians won't get weapons, but those who really want them will find them anyway.
 

Bootprint

Diamond Member
Jan 11, 2002
9,847
0
0
Welcome to 10 years ago.

Should people not have an option to put their money where they want?
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
Originally posted by: Goosemaster
fusion will kick ass....
Oh I do hope so. I consider it the solution to our energy needs. It could also allow for the clean production of plenty of hydrogen through electrolysis.
 
May 31, 2001
15,326
2
0
"But... but... but... nookular power is BAD! My momma used to walk around waving a sign that said so back when she was my age!"
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Another silly thing from the recent Al Gore electricity thing is that you can specifically buy "green power" from wind or soalr. But the funny thing is solar panels have high lifecycle carbon emmisions (due to construction) than nuclear, and wind power is only slightly less. Also funny is one large nuclear plant produces moe power than all the wind and solar in the United States combined.
 

drinkmorejava

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
3,567
7
81
lol, in my international econ class we were talking about this "energy crisis" thing and I almost started cracking up. People are such idiots, nuclear FTW
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
nuclear isn't a complete solution to the energy "crisis", but yeah its a good part of the solution. Go read some of the peak oil websites, they are completely whacked out, at first I was reading them and thinking these people sorta know what they are talking about, but then they start getting into which countries will nuke each other and how many people will die off and how they will live out in the nevada desert during the global nuclear wars and the crazy thing is they actually trully believe this will all happen if we don't build a million more wind turbines and soalr panels.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
71,334
30,875
136
By the time you factor in the environmental costs of producing uranium fuel fission doesn't come out a whole lot better than coal. The enrichment step alone consumes roughly 5-10% of the energy ultimately produced by fission. Add in mining, milling, converting to UF6, converting to UOx, manufacturing rods, and the reclamation costs of cleaning up after yourself then fission doesn't look so cheap. In the US we haven't even begun to address the hundreds of thousands of tons of depleted uUF6 laying around the enrichment plants. Coal is dirty, Uranium is dirty. We can choose our poison but let's not pretend that it isn't poison.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Well, since my dad has been working in the area of nuclear fuel this is actually something I know a little about. You hear alot of reports about the length of time that current uranium reserves may or may not last, but there is still a ton of specualtion there, new reserves are found constantly, and overtime it becomes economical to mine lower quality ores that were previously not considered usefull. Also, the fact that the world currently consumes far more uranium than it produces is not as big a deal as some make it out to be. The influx of uranium from dismantled nuclear bombs casued the price to fall dramatically. Now overthe last few years it has come WAY up back to where it should be and there are a whole host of new uranium mines that will be comming online in the next few years. The production shortage will not last that much longer, it just takes mines a little while to catch up to the increased demand. Also, that all assumes that we are only using current light water reactor technology. This current technology only uses the less than 1% of Uranium that is U235. Breeder reactors can use the other 99% as well as using thorium that is 3 times as abundent as uranium. You talk of the "problem" of all the spent nuclear fuel at enrichment plants, but for a breeder reactor this is perfectly acceptable fuel. With breeder reactors the fule supply will last many many generations.

Also, it should be pointed out that breeder reactors aren't some sort of advanced technology, the first nucelar reactors ever built were breeder reactors. The current designs are essentiall a nuclear reactor dumbed down as far as possible. The people who planned to use nuclear power never planned on light water reactors being the primary source for nearly this long, breeder reactors were supposed to take over, but people fears of nuclear reactors halted that back in the 70's, and the fact tha breeder reactors produce plutonium (even though its not usefull for bombs) has caused people to fear them as a source of nuclear weapons. Anyways, the point is that limit on nuclear reactor fuel supplies is a POLITICAL one, not a logistic one. If breeder reactors and reprocessing were legalised, and if other countires there would not be a problem with nuclear reactor fuel supply.
 

futuristicmonkey

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,031
0
76
Originally posted by: ironwing
By the time you factor in the environmental costs of producing uranium fuel fission doesn't come out a whole lot better than coal. The enrichment step alone consumes roughly 5-10% of the energy ultimately produced by fission. Add in mining, milling, converting to UF6, converting to UOx, manufacturing rods, and the reclamation costs of cleaning up after yourself then fission doesn't look so cheap. In the US we haven't even begun to address the hundreds of thousands of tons of depleted uUF6 laying around the enrichment plants. Coal is dirty, Uranium is dirty. We can choose our poison but let's not pretend that it isn't poison.

You don't even need to bother with enrichment if you use one of our current-gen CANDU's. Only thing is they need a lot of very high-purity heavy water (reactor efficiency is greatly diminished if D2O purity goes from 99.9% to 99.8%) -- which is expensive. Though, invest in it and you'll be helping a Canadian industry :) - we produce a hell of a lot of D2O. The advanced CANDU is designed to work with only SEU, has a 1GW+ capacity, and uses about a quarter of the D2O of the current CANDU's.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
19
81
Originally posted by: drinkmorejava
lol, in my international econ class we were talking about this "energy crisis" thing and I almost started cracking up. People are such idiots, nuclear FTW
Say that again in a few more decades, once everyone in China and India decides that they really really want cars. Best of luck providing enough oil to all who need it.

Economist David Hale spoke at my university several months ago. He cited something by Goldman Sachs that said that, given projections of desired car ownership in India, China, and the US, by 2050 there would simply not be enough oil production capacity in the world to meet that level of demand. He also said that within 10 years, we might be looking at $10/gallon gasoline prices.

A significant part of the world's population is seeking to raise their standard of living. They are going to want energy sources to power this upgrade.

I do really hope that fusion technology gets plenty of research to finally not only achieve a positive efficiency, but to also become commercially viable. With the oceans as fuel for a low-emissions reaction, it could have wide-reaching benefits in many aspects of life. Hydrogen could be produced for use in vehicles, or the electricity could be distributed for electrically powered cars. There would be no need for strip-mining, no relying on stores in politically unstable regions, or those in areas that are not easily accessible due to their geography. There would be no need for vehicles that burn fossil fuels, nor power plants that do the same = much ess air pollution.

Unfortunately, I feel that the energy crunch may start to make itself known before fusion gains a foothold.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,653
205
106
Originally posted by: futuristicmonkey
So I'm watching Global news the other day.....and there seems to be some new nonsense called 'Ethical' savings bonds...or something like that (it's a Canadian thing).

"....will not invest your money in environmentally-unfriendly areas such as: fossil fuels, nuclear power, and the military..."

...I was shocked. We can get the same amount of energy from a FY2003 $7 USD fuel rod as a ton of coal, while not spewing multiple tons of those nasty oxides into the atmosphere -- only steam -- and these idiots are trying to brainwash people with their FUD.

Nuclear power is the cleanest, cheapest, most reliable, and safest energy source we have. It doesn't pollute like coal or oil; and doesn't require 90,000 tons of coal per day or any of our precious oil. You can get more power than the Limestone hydro station, in northern Manitoba, with only two CANDU 6-class reactors -- and you don't need to mess with fish breeding or w/e and you don't need to flood the land. You see, hydro power isn't completely clean either -- on the Canadian Shield thousands of years of peat has built up which absorbs CO2, and when you flood the land the peat dies and starts to emit that CO2 back into the atmosphere. Also, the power density of nuke power is only about a thousand times that of wind turbines/solar power.

What about spent fuel? It would be a non-issue if our government allowed us to employ breeder reactors, which a CANDU can be configured as. This would also turn a 150-year supply of fissile uranium into about a 150 million year supply of fissile plutonium.

Safe? Nuclear reactors, if built and operated by competent people, are the safest things there are. Forget about Chernobyl -- in layman's terms they attempted to put out a fire with a gasoline injection (they had graphite extenders on their control rods -- graphite was the moderator in the RBMK reactor) while they had a good supply of pure oxygen lying around (virtually every safety system was designed for nominal conditions; and they weren't even operational during the test).

I seriously became pissed off when I saw this. I just don't know how uneducated people like this can be taken seriously without even having their 'data' looked over. F*cking idiots....

-ben


environmentalists wont be happy until we go back to pre-industrialized nations
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,542
921
126
I consider myself an evironmentalist and I support nuclear energy. Think twice before you brand all of us whackos mkay? :|
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
unfortunately alot of other enviromentalists would consider an enviromsntalist who supports nuclear energy to be an oxymoron. It is unfortunate that me and others use the word "enviromentalist" like its an insult, but understand that we are talking about a certain type of person here who takes the idea way to far. Obviously most people want a cleaner enviroment, but the people we refer to are the ones who are so blinded by this goal that they miss the social and ecnomic realities (like the fact that oil and electricity are the foundation of our economy since the second industrial revolution).
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Im actually working on a project right now for economics related to nuclear power.

Some info straight form the IAEA.

Energy Density
One kilogram (kg) of firewood can generate 1 kilowatt-hour (kW?h) of electricity. The values for the other solid fossil fuels and for nuclear power are:
1 kg coal: 3 kW?h
1 kg oil: 4 kW?h
1 kg uranium: 50 000 kW?h (3 500 000 kW?h with reprocessing)

Fuel required per year

Consequently, a 1000 MW plant requires the following number of tons (t) of fuel annually: (t = metric tons, 1000Kg)
2 600 000 t coal: 2000 train cars (1300t each)
2 000 000 t oil: 10 supertankers
30 t uranium: 10 cubic meters
428Kg uranium: 0.143 cubic meters or 143 liters (with reprocessing)
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
81
I don't know about their data, but if someone doesn't feel like supporting the military industrial complex isn't that their right?
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,333
10,842
136
While I agree that nuclear power isn't nearly as bad as popular opinion often makes it out to be, I can't get behind it as anything other then a short-term solution to tide us over until somone comes up with more efficient solar cells because no matter how you slice it, you still end up with large quantities of highly toxic material left over after all the energy is extracted vs unlimited sunlight with very little in the way of waste produced.

Further, 3-mile island was a relatively modern & efficient nuclear power plant that came VERY close to causing a disaster which would have made Chernobyl look like a walk in the park in terms of the number of people sickened or killed by the radiation, so calling nuclear fission "safe" isn't exactly accurate either. In a perfect world it would be fine, but in the real world we have lazy & incompetent people in sensitive positions which can lead to serious problems with even the best designed nuke... the odds may be in your favor but the potential downside is huge.

The French have proven that its possible to operate nukes for extended periods without serious incidents, however given a choice I'd prefer another source for my electricity... the fact that we may have no choice in the not too distant future is depressing.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: Captante
Further, 3-mile island was a relatively modern & efficient nuclear power plant that came VERY close to causing a disaster which would have made Chernobyl look like a walk in the park in terms of the number of people sickened or killed by the radiation

Umm, no thats completely untrue. A total meltdown wouldn't have released nearly as much radiation as at Chernobyl because TMI has a containment building which is designed to contain the resultant release of radioactive material. People in the plant itself would likely have died, but the general public would not have experienced nearly the radioactive fallout as at Chernobyl.