England sucks. I mean they really suck.

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
If I ever live in Europe, it'll never, ever be in England. The land of the magna carta has turned into a police state. Now they have double jeopardy. Double jeopardy!!!

http://www.economist.com/world....cfm?story_id=11594471

Mary Poppins and Magna Carta

British liberties have been eroded under Labour. Few seem to mind much


LIBERALS have long lamented that, despite much stirring rhetoric about the mother of parliaments and Magna Carta, modern Britons have little real interest in their hard-won liberties. On June 17th, as Gordon Brown gave a speech on the subject, that pessimism seemed confirmed when one rapt listener fell asleep in the middle of the prime minister's oration.

Yet civil liberties are much in the news these days. Mr Brown's speech came in the wake of the surprise resignation on June 12th of David Davis, the Conservative shadow home secretary. Mr Davis quit the House of Commons after it voted to allow terrorist suspects to be detained without charge for up to 42 days (the bill now looks set for a rocky ride in the House of Lords). From the steps of the Palace of Westminster, Mr Davis accused the government of presiding over the ?slow strangulation? of freedoms and the ?ceaseless encroachment of the state? into daily life. He hopes to use the resulting by-election in his Yorkshire constituency as a referendum on Labour's liberal credentials, and on the growth of the nanny state in general.

The charge sheet against the government is long and damning. Besides its 42-day detention proposals (and earlier, failed plans to imprison suspects for 90 days), it is accused of colluding with America to transport terrorist suspects to secret prisons abroad. It has created new crimes, such as glorifying terrorism or inciting religious hatred, that, say critics, dampen freedom of speech. Those who breach one of its Anti-Social Behaviour Orders, introduced in 1998, can be jailed for things that are not illegal in themselves (such as visiting a forbidden part of town or talking to certain people). In 2005 the prohibition on double jeopardy?trying a person twice for the same offence?was removed for serious offences. The government has tried to cut back the scope of trial by jury.

Along with the new crimes have come new ways of detecting them. Millions of publicly and privately owned closed-circuit television cameras (no one is sure precisely how many) monitor town centres. The latest innovation is unmanned, miniature aircraft (adapted from army models) that can loiter over trouble spots, feeding images to police on the ground.

Vast computerised collections of information have become popular too. Britain possesses one of the largest police DNA databases in the world, containing the records of over 4m of 60m citizens (including a third of the black men in the country). Records are kept for everyone who is arrested, meaning that many on the system have never actually been charged with any crime. The government's identity-card scheme, the first phase of which is due to start later this year, aims to record the fingerprints and biographical details of everyone in the land.

Other big databases are justified on grounds of administrative convenience rather than crime-fighting and security. One such is a plan to centralise the records of all patients of the National Health Service. Another would allow social services to monitor every child in the country, including how parents spend their money and how many portions of fruit and vegetables they feed their offspring each day.

Mr Brown argues that frightening new threats?terrorism, drug trafficking and (rather incongruously) benefit fraud?require new powers. In his speech he turned criticisms about authoritarianism on their head, saying that new state powers were guarantors of liberty, not threats to it. He expanded on the risks?the 2,000 terrorist suspects whom the security services are apparently tracking?and the benefits?the 8,000 suspects who have been matched with crime scenes since 2001 thanks to DNA evidence retained when they were released, uncharged, after a previous arrest. He repeated his promise that Parliament would prevent abuse of the 42-day detention law. Labour has passed a raft of other measures too: the Human Rights Act in 1998, freedom of information legislation in 2000 and changes to ensure the rights of gays and other groups.

An unhappy few
Government reassurances do not impress civil libertarians, who argue that, once restrictive new laws are in place, uses for them tend to multiply. In March it emerged that local councils had been using surveillance powers intended for deployment against serious criminals to check up on footling infringements: people who flouted smoking bans, for instance, or tried to game the school-admissions system.

And promises that sensitive personal data will be carefully stewarded look rather limp next to an official proclivity for leaving confidential material in public places. Mr Brown was badly embarrassed in November, when CDs containing 25m child-benefit records were reported lost by the Inland Revenue. More recently, on June 12th a civil servant was suspended after top-secret papers about terrorism were found on a train; on the same day another set of documents?this time on financial fraud?turned up on a different train. Five days later it emerged that a laptop stolen from the office of a cabinet minister may have contained confidential documents, violating data-protection rules.

But Britain's small band of civil libertarians has bigger problems than a recalcitrant prime minister and careless civil servants. Despite Benjamin Franklin's famous advice, the public seems happy to trade a little liberty for a little security. Surveys before the 42-days vote consistently showed public opinion in favour. More recent polling for The Economist shows broad public support for many liberal bugbears (see chart). Women tend to be more authoritarian than men, Labour supporters more relaxed about infringing civil liberties than Tories and Liberal Democrats, and richer folk more worried than the poor (full details can be found here). Half of the respondents were consistent in their answers to most questions; this, says YouGov's boss, Peter Kellner, is rather high.

The poll suggests that people are vehement in defence of civil liberty and privacy when considered in the abstract. Confronted with specific situations, their resolve wilts, especially when specific security gains are promised (although administrative benefits can overcome libertarian instincts too). Trust in private firms is much less than in the government?odd, since more than half of all consumers are voluntarily enrolled in data-tracking supermarket loyalty schemes.

Mr Davis's supporters point to a poll in the Daily Mail in which 57% of respondents said they supported his crusade. That is hard to reconcile with the findings of our survey. The alternative explanation?that any politician seen to thumb his nose at the establishment delights disenchanted voters?seems rather plausible.


 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
0
0
I guess they rather have safety over freedom which in the end will come to bite them in the ass when they realize they have not gained anything of value.

As for civil liberties well we all know they are for liburals and commies. /sarcasm off
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Gotta agree somewhat with Drift3, for a country with a security camera on every lamp post, its doing them very little good. The British people already gave Blair, Bush's poodle,
the ole heave ho. Sadly when it comes to the larger political party and Gordon Brown, England will have to veer further right and opt for more surveillance before it can heave ho those new conservative idiots and head for more civil liberties when the party and Blair and Brown finally get back in by learning their lesson.
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,158
6
81
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Gotta agree somewhat with Drift3, for a country with a security camera on every lamp post, its doing them very little good. The British people already gave Blair, Bush's poodle,
the ole heave ho. Sadly when it comes to the larger political party and Gordon Brown, England will have to veer further right and opt for more surveillance before it can heave ho those new conservative idiots and head for more civil liberties when the party and Blair and Brown finally get back in by learning their lesson.

What causes your posts to stop mid-sentence and begin a new paragraph?


Stop trolling LL now. Your noise to substance index is sub-standard, constatnly hovering around "troll."

And don't perpetuate your trolling by answering this anywhere else than with Derek, mod pm, or PFI w/o making it a mod call out.

Perknose
Senior AT Mod



 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: Dari
If I ever live in Europe, it'll never, ever be in England. The land of the magna carta has turned into a police state. Now they have double jeopardy. Double jeopardy!!!

http://www.economist.com/world....cfm?story_id=11594471

Mary Poppins and Magna Carta

British liberties have been eroded under Labour. Few seem to mind much


LIBERALS have long lamented that, despite much stirring rhetoric about the mother of parliaments and Magna Carta, modern Britons have little real interest in their hard-won liberties. On June 17th, as Gordon Brown gave a speech on the subject, that pessimism seemed confirmed when one rapt listener fell asleep in the middle of the prime minister's oration.

Yet civil liberties are much in the news these days. Mr Brown's speech came in the wake of the surprise resignation on June 12th of David Davis, the Conservative shadow home secretary. Mr Davis quit the House of Commons after it voted to allow terrorist suspects to be detained without charge for up to 42 days (the bill now looks set for a rocky ride in the House of Lords). From the steps of the Palace of Westminster, Mr Davis accused the government of presiding over the ?slow strangulation? of freedoms and the ?ceaseless encroachment of the state? into daily life. He hopes to use the resulting by-election in his Yorkshire constituency as a referendum on Labour's liberal credentials, and on the growth of the nanny state in general.

The charge sheet against the government is long and damning. Besides its 42-day detention proposals (and earlier, failed plans to imprison suspects for 90 days), it is accused of colluding with America to transport terrorist suspects to secret prisons abroad. It has created new crimes, such as glorifying terrorism or inciting religious hatred, that, say critics, dampen freedom of speech. Those who breach one of its Anti-Social Behaviour Orders, introduced in 1998, can be jailed for things that are not illegal in themselves (such as visiting a forbidden part of town or talking to certain people). In 2005 the prohibition on double jeopardy?trying a person twice for the same offence?was removed for serious offences. The government has tried to cut back the scope of trial by jury.

Along with the new crimes have come new ways of detecting them. Millions of publicly and privately owned closed-circuit television cameras (no one is sure precisely how many) monitor town centres. The latest innovation is unmanned, miniature aircraft (adapted from army models) that can loiter over trouble spots, feeding images to police on the ground.

Vast computerised collections of information have become popular too. Britain possesses one of the largest police DNA databases in the world, containing the records of over 4m of 60m citizens (including a third of the black men in the country). Records are kept for everyone who is arrested, meaning that many on the system have never actually been charged with any crime. The government's identity-card scheme, the first phase of which is due to start later this year, aims to record the fingerprints and biographical details of everyone in the land.

Other big databases are justified on grounds of administrative convenience rather than crime-fighting and security. One such is a plan to centralise the records of all patients of the National Health Service. Another would allow social services to monitor every child in the country, including how parents spend their money and how many portions of fruit and vegetables they feed their offspring each day.

Mr Brown argues that frightening new threats?terrorism, drug trafficking and (rather incongruously) benefit fraud?require new powers. In his speech he turned criticisms about authoritarianism on their head, saying that new state powers were guarantors of liberty, not threats to it. He expanded on the risks?the 2,000 terrorist suspects whom the security services are apparently tracking?and the benefits?the 8,000 suspects who have been matched with crime scenes since 2001 thanks to DNA evidence retained when they were released, uncharged, after a previous arrest. He repeated his promise that Parliament would prevent abuse of the 42-day detention law. Labour has passed a raft of other measures too: the Human Rights Act in 1998, freedom of information legislation in 2000 and changes to ensure the rights of gays and other groups.

An unhappy few
Government reassurances do not impress civil libertarians, who argue that, once restrictive new laws are in place, uses for them tend to multiply. In March it emerged that local councils had been using surveillance powers intended for deployment against serious criminals to check up on footling infringements: people who flouted smoking bans, for instance, or tried to game the school-admissions system.

And promises that sensitive personal data will be carefully stewarded look rather limp next to an official proclivity for leaving confidential material in public places. Mr Brown was badly embarrassed in November, when CDs containing 25m child-benefit records were reported lost by the Inland Revenue. More recently, on June 12th a civil servant was suspended after top-secret papers about terrorism were found on a train; on the same day another set of documents?this time on financial fraud?turned up on a different train. Five days later it emerged that a laptop stolen from the office of a cabinet minister may have contained confidential documents, violating data-protection rules.

But Britain's small band of civil libertarians has bigger problems than a recalcitrant prime minister and careless civil servants. Despite Benjamin Franklin's famous advice, the public seems happy to trade a little liberty for a little security. Surveys before the 42-days vote consistently showed public opinion in favour. More recent polling for The Economist shows broad public support for many liberal bugbears (see chart). Women tend to be more authoritarian than men, Labour supporters more relaxed about infringing civil liberties than Tories and Liberal Democrats, and richer folk more worried than the poor (full details can be found here). Half of the respondents were consistent in their answers to most questions; this, says YouGov's boss, Peter Kellner, is rather high.

The poll suggests that people are vehement in defence of civil liberty and privacy when considered in the abstract. Confronted with specific situations, their resolve wilts, especially when specific security gains are promised (although administrative benefits can overcome libertarian instincts too). Trust in private firms is much less than in the government?odd, since more than half of all consumers are voluntarily enrolled in data-tracking supermarket loyalty schemes.

Mr Davis's supporters point to a poll in the Daily Mail in which 57% of respondents said they supported his crusade. That is hard to reconcile with the findings of our survey. The alternative explanation?that any politician seen to thumb his nose at the establishment delights disenchanted voters?seems rather plausible.

If there were two coherent lines in this post that applied to todays England all would be well with it, but there are not.

I won't spend more time arguing over this propaganda piece but i will say that you'll find most of the opinions included on Stormfront.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: nick1985
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Gotta agree somewhat with Drift3, for a country with a security camera on every lamp post, its doing them very little good. The British people already gave Blair, Bush's poodle,
the ole heave ho. Sadly when it comes to the larger political party and Gordon Brown, England will have to veer further right and opt for more surveillance before it can heave ho those new conservative idiots and head for more civil liberties when the party and Blair and Brown finally get back in by learning their lesson.

What causes your posts to stop mid-sentence and begin a new paragraph?


Stop trolling LL now. Your noise to substance index is sub-standard, constatnly hovering around "troll."

And don't perpetuate your trolling by answering this anywhere else than with Derek, mod pm, or PFI w/o making it a mod call out.

Perknose
Senior AT Mod

WHY? it's fucking annoying and i constantly complain about it, he leaves out half the posts, "Lemon Law" that is, and i've told him that it's dishonest and misrepresenting a LOT of times.

Now i really don't want to defend Nick, mostly because i think he's a fucking retarded poster who never adds anything to any debate, but Lemon should learn to fucking quote, it's not hard and he has proven that he CAN do it.

It's not a trademark thing either, he's just being dishonest, misrepresenting and in 99% of all cases his posts are strawmen.

How he hasn't been banned a long time ago for this practice i have no idea, do you really really really like his opinions and that is all that matters?


Got a mod beef? PFI (w/o making it a mod callout), Derek, or mod pm. This applies to everyone, including you. Show us you're true military and stay disciplined. Use proper channels.

Perknose
Senior AT Mod
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Imagine what it will be like when ultra-far right BNP types gain more power. All the equipment and laws are in place for a quick "purification."
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,430
6,088
126
In Penny Lane there is a barber showing photographs
Of every head he's had the pleasure to have known,
And all the people that come and go
Stop and say hello.

On the corner is a banker with a motorcar,
The little children laugh at him behind his back.
And the banker never wears a mac
In the pouring rain, very strange.

Penny Lane is in my ears and in my eyes.
There beneath the blue suburban skies
I sit, and meanwhile back

In Penny Lane there is a fireman with an hourglass
And in his pocket is a portrait of the Queen.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean,
It's a clean machine.

Penny Lane is in my ears and in my eyes.
A four of fish and finger pies
In summer, meanwhile back

Behind the shelter in the middle of the roundabout
A pretty nurse is selling poppies from a tray
And though she feels as if she's in a play
She is anyway.

In Penny Lane the barber shaves another customer,
We see the banker sitting waiting for a trim.
And then the fireman rushes in
From the pouring rain, very strange.

Penny Lane is in my ears and in my eyes.
There beneath the blue suburban skies
I sit, and meanwhile back.
Penny Lane is in my ears and in my eyes.
There beneath the blue suburban skies,
Penny Lane.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
If nothing else, JOS, I do explain why your ideas, when put into practice, in Afghanistan, simply do not work.

After all, results do matter.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: Dari
If I ever live in Europe, it'll never, ever be in England. The land of the magna carta has turned into a police state. Now they have double jeopardy. Double jeopardy!!!

http://www.economist.com/world....cfm?story_id=11594471

Mary Poppins and Magna Carta

British liberties have been eroded under Labour. Few seem to mind much


LIBERALS have long lamented that, despite much stirring rhetoric about the mother of parliaments and Magna Carta, modern Britons have little real interest in their hard-won liberties. On June 17th, as Gordon Brown gave a speech on the subject, that pessimism seemed confirmed when one rapt listener fell asleep in the middle of the prime minister's oration.

Yet civil liberties are much in the news these days. Mr Brown's speech came in the wake of the surprise resignation on June 12th of David Davis, the Conservative shadow home secretary. Mr Davis quit the House of Commons after it voted to allow terrorist suspects to be detained without charge for up to 42 days (the bill now looks set for a rocky ride in the House of Lords). From the steps of the Palace of Westminster, Mr Davis accused the government of presiding over the ?slow strangulation? of freedoms and the ?ceaseless encroachment of the state? into daily life. He hopes to use the resulting by-election in his Yorkshire constituency as a referendum on Labour's liberal credentials, and on the growth of the nanny state in general.

The charge sheet against the government is long and damning. Besides its 42-day detention proposals (and earlier, failed plans to imprison suspects for 90 days), it is accused of colluding with America to transport terrorist suspects to secret prisons abroad. It has created new crimes, such as glorifying terrorism or inciting religious hatred, that, say critics, dampen freedom of speech. Those who breach one of its Anti-Social Behaviour Orders, introduced in 1998, can be jailed for things that are not illegal in themselves (such as visiting a forbidden part of town or talking to certain people). In 2005 the prohibition on double jeopardy?trying a person twice for the same offence?was removed for serious offences. The government has tried to cut back the scope of trial by jury.

Along with the new crimes have come new ways of detecting them. Millions of publicly and privately owned closed-circuit television cameras (no one is sure precisely how many) monitor town centres. The latest innovation is unmanned, miniature aircraft (adapted from army models) that can loiter over trouble spots, feeding images to police on the ground.

Vast computerised collections of information have become popular too. Britain possesses one of the largest police DNA databases in the world, containing the records of over 4m of 60m citizens (including a third of the black men in the country). Records are kept for everyone who is arrested, meaning that many on the system have never actually been charged with any crime. The government's identity-card scheme, the first phase of which is due to start later this year, aims to record the fingerprints and biographical details of everyone in the land.

Other big databases are justified on grounds of administrative convenience rather than crime-fighting and security. One such is a plan to centralise the records of all patients of the National Health Service. Another would allow social services to monitor every child in the country, including how parents spend their money and how many portions of fruit and vegetables they feed their offspring each day.

Mr Brown argues that frightening new threats?terrorism, drug trafficking and (rather incongruously) benefit fraud?require new powers. In his speech he turned criticisms about authoritarianism on their head, saying that new state powers were guarantors of liberty, not threats to it. He expanded on the risks?the 2,000 terrorist suspects whom the security services are apparently tracking?and the benefits?the 8,000 suspects who have been matched with crime scenes since 2001 thanks to DNA evidence retained when they were released, uncharged, after a previous arrest. He repeated his promise that Parliament would prevent abuse of the 42-day detention law. Labour has passed a raft of other measures too: the Human Rights Act in 1998, freedom of information legislation in 2000 and changes to ensure the rights of gays and other groups.

An unhappy few
Government reassurances do not impress civil libertarians, who argue that, once restrictive new laws are in place, uses for them tend to multiply. In March it emerged that local councils had been using surveillance powers intended for deployment against serious criminals to check up on footling infringements: people who flouted smoking bans, for instance, or tried to game the school-admissions system.

And promises that sensitive personal data will be carefully stewarded look rather limp next to an official proclivity for leaving confidential material in public places. Mr Brown was badly embarrassed in November, when CDs containing 25m child-benefit records were reported lost by the Inland Revenue. More recently, on June 12th a civil servant was suspended after top-secret papers about terrorism were found on a train; on the same day another set of documents?this time on financial fraud?turned up on a different train. Five days later it emerged that a laptop stolen from the office of a cabinet minister may have contained confidential documents, violating data-protection rules.

But Britain's small band of civil libertarians has bigger problems than a recalcitrant prime minister and careless civil servants. Despite Benjamin Franklin's famous advice, the public seems happy to trade a little liberty for a little security. Surveys before the 42-days vote consistently showed public opinion in favour. More recent polling for The Economist shows broad public support for many liberal bugbears (see chart). Women tend to be more authoritarian than men, Labour supporters more relaxed about infringing civil liberties than Tories and Liberal Democrats, and richer folk more worried than the poor (full details can be found here). Half of the respondents were consistent in their answers to most questions; this, says YouGov's boss, Peter Kellner, is rather high.

The poll suggests that people are vehement in defence of civil liberty and privacy when considered in the abstract. Confronted with specific situations, their resolve wilts, especially when specific security gains are promised (although administrative benefits can overcome libertarian instincts too). Trust in private firms is much less than in the government?odd, since more than half of all consumers are voluntarily enrolled in data-tracking supermarket loyalty schemes.

Mr Davis's supporters point to a poll in the Daily Mail in which 57% of respondents said they supported his crusade. That is hard to reconcile with the findings of our survey. The alternative explanation?that any politician seen to thumb his nose at the establishment delights disenchanted voters?seems rather plausible.

If there were two coherent lines in this post that applied to todays England all would be well with it, but there are not.

I won't spend more time arguing over this propaganda piece but i will say that you'll find most of the opinions included on Stormfront.

:confused:Must be Mad Cow.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Isn't it ironic that a thread about England turning into an Orwellian state gets two MOD comments in the first 6 posts...


You just don't get it. References to mods with comments such as you just made, is mod callout/baiting. You have no excuse when two others have been warned. Two weeks off and possibly more based on your history.


esquared
Anandtech Senior Moderator
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Its may be somewhat easy to make the case that England sucks, but still, at the same time, England and British common law has largely led the modern world in modern legal thought. Much of the message of the American Revolution came from English immigrants who wanted to extend and modify English ideas while adding in other ideas from other European thinkers. IN MHO, the main ideals of English and American law have yet to be improved on by any world society.

Both England and the United States are somewhat now adapting to the realities of international terrorism and a changing world. I still remain optimistic that both will learn, although present trend lines do not exactly look bright. But sometimes a society must drift too far in the wrong direction to better remember their roots.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Isn't it ironic that a thread about England turning into an Orwellian state gets two MOD comments in the first 6 posts...

:laugh: Big Brother is watching!!!
 

manowar821

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2007
6,063
0
0
Why should we get new allies? That's exactly where we are heading, too. JOIN THE PARTY, BEND OVER AND TAKE IT IN THE REAR! Come on, all the cool people are doing it.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,305
136
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Isn't it ironic that a thread about England turning into an Orwellian state gets two MOD comments in the first 6 posts...

This a privately-owned forum. If you disapprove of the moderation, you are welcome to start your own forums.
However, at no point and time is a restriction of your ability to publish comments on privately-owned media, like this one, a representation of an Orwellian state, a violation of your first amendment rights, or anything else like that.

Anyway, LemonLaw tends to ramble, doesn't address arguments head-on, won't use the quote function, etc. and that tends to annoy some. I gave up a long time ago.


On topic: my biggest issue with Britain is that they don't have a Bill of Rights. Their patriots of the past expected the common law to protect their rights, and unfortunately that hasn't always proven true. Another issue is that they are still technically a monarchy, and they still have somewhat of that old imperialist mentality, and as such that makes the government somewhat anti-nationalistic. They fight for 'Queen and country,' not just country, and the 'Queen' is all her subjects throughout the world.
That last bit might be touch advanced. A recent study of mine is how the unintended consequence of the rise of liberal democracies (and the fall of the old imperalisms) was the nationalism and ethnic violence.
 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,221
654
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Isn't it ironic that a thread about England turning into an Orwellian state gets two MOD comments in the first 6 posts...

This a privately-owned forum. If you disapprove of the moderation, you are welcome to start your own forums.
However, at no point and time is a restriction of your ability to publish comments on privately-owned media, like this one, a representation of an Orwellian state, a violation of your first amendment rights, or anything else like that.

Well said Vic. I found it hilarious that a supposed "conservative" who believes in personal rights and responsibilities would cry foul at a private entity governing itself how it chooses to.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Isn't it ironic that a thread about England turning into an Orwellian state gets two MOD comments in the first 6 posts...

This a privately-owned forum. If you disapprove of the moderation, you are welcome to start your own forums.
However, at no point and time is a restriction of your ability to publish comments on privately-owned media, like this one, a representation of an Orwellian state, a violation of your first amendment rights, or anything else like that.

Anyway, LemonLaw tends to ramble, doesn't address arguments head-on, won't use the quote function, etc. and that tends to annoy some. I gave up a long time ago.


On topic: my biggest issue with Britain is that they don't have a Bill of Rights. Their patriots of the past expected the common law to protect their rights, and unfortunately that hasn't always proven true. Another issue is that they are still technically a monarchy, and they still have somewhat of that old imperialist mentality, and as such that makes the government somewhat anti-nationalistic. They fight for 'Queen and country,' not just country, and the 'Queen' is all her subjects throughout the world.
That last bit might be touch advanced. A recent study of mine is how the unintended consequence of the rise of liberal democracies (and the fall of the old imperalisms) was the nationalism and ethnic violence.

You got to the ME in the 1930's with the rise of Arab nationalism and their ties to Italy and Nazi Germany yet?

Fascinating subject which I am going to be looking into more. The grand mufti worked with the Nazi's and got them to form the 13th SS Hanschar divison which carried out anti-partisan actions against Tito and other atrocities in the name of national soclialism.

Having been interested in WWII and finally wrapping my brain around the ideology of the Nazi's and what they were trying to do. It absolutely fascinates me they allowed one of their security divisions to be raised by and populated with people they considered genetically inferior.

WWI and European imperialism really set that part of the world on a track that got us to WWII and where we are today in regards to the ME.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Isn't it ironic that a thread about England turning into an Orwellian state gets two MOD comments in the first 6 posts...

This a privately-owned forum. If you disapprove of the moderation, you are welcome to start your own forums.
However, at no point and time is a restriction of your ability to publish comments on privately-owned media, like this one, a representation of an Orwellian state, a violation of your first amendment rights, or anything else like that.

Anyway, LemonLaw tends to ramble, doesn't address arguments head-on, won't use the quote function, etc. and that tends to annoy some. I gave up a long time ago.


On topic: my biggest issue with Britain is that they don't have a Bill of Rights. Their patriots of the past expected the common law to protect their rights, and unfortunately that hasn't always proven true. Another issue is that they are still technically a monarchy, and they still have somewhat of that old imperialist mentality, and as such that makes the government somewhat anti-nationalistic. They fight for 'Queen and country,' not just country, and the 'Queen' is all her subjects throughout the world.
That last bit might be touch advanced. A recent study of mine is how the unintended consequence of the rise of liberal democracies (and the fall of the old imperalisms) was the nationalism and ethnic violence.

You got to the ME in the 1930's with the rise of Arab nationalism and their ties to Italy and Nazi Germany yet?

Fascinating subject which I am going to be looking into more. The grand mufti worked with the Nazi's and got them to form the 13th SS Hanschar divison which carried out anti-partisan actions against Tito and other atrocities in the name of national soclialism.

Having been interested in WWII and finally wrapping my brain around the ideology of the Nazi's and what they were trying to do. It absolutely fascinates me they allowed one of their security divisions to be raised by and populated with people they considered genetically inferior.

WWI and European imperialism really set that part of the world on a track that got us to WWII and where we are today in regards to the ME.

The Nazis also called the Japanese "Yellow Aryans". It was less about beliefs and political expediency. Ironically, when the Japanese and Germans communicated, it was always in English.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,305
136
Originally posted by: Genx87
You got to the ME in the 1930's with the rise of Arab nationalism and their ties to Italy and Nazi Germany yet?

Fascinating subject which I am going to be looking into more. The grand mufti worked with the Nazi's and got them to form the 13th SS Hanschar divison which carried out anti-partisan actions against Tito and other atrocities in the name of national soclialism.

Having been interested in WWII and finally wrapping my brain around the ideology of the Nazi's and what they were trying to do. It absolutely fascinates me they allowed one of their security divisions to be raised by and populated with people they considered genetically inferior.

WWI and European imperialism really set that part of the world on a track that got us to WWII and where we are today in regards to the ME.

No question of that. What I was getting at was a little different though. That imperialism held together various ethnicities by force. Scots and Brits living on the same island in peace, for example. Indians fighting under the British flag in WWII. Monarchies were good to minorities from the colonies who came to live in the home country. But once the monarchs were deposed... a relevant example would be the Armenian genocide.

Anyway, Hitler was the ultimate double-crosser. He'd have pimped his mother for the starring role in a snuff film.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
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Originally posted by: jman19
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Isn't it ironic that a thread about England turning into an Orwellian state gets two MOD comments in the first 6 posts...

This a privately-owned forum. If you disapprove of the moderation, you are welcome to start your own forums.
However, at no point and time is a restriction of your ability to publish comments on privately-owned media, like this one, a representation of an Orwellian state, a violation of your first amendment rights, or anything else like that.

Well said Vic. I found it hilarious that a supposed "conservative" who believes in personal rights and responsibilities would cry foul at a private entity governing itself how it chooses to.

Ahh, another different between conservatives and neo-conservatives. :p
 
Dec 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: nick1985
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Gotta agree somewhat with Drift3, for a country with a security camera on every lamp post, its doing them very little good. The British people already gave Blair, Bush's poodle,
the ole heave ho. Sadly when it comes to the larger political party and Gordon Brown, England will have to veer further right and opt for more surveillance before it can heave ho those new conservative idiots and head for more civil liberties when the party and Blair and Brown finally get back in by learning their lesson.

What causes your posts to stop mid-sentence and begin a new paragraph?


Stop trolling LL now. Your noise to substance index is sub-standard, constatnly hovering around "troll."

And don't perpetuate your trolling by answering this anywhere else than with Derek, mod pm, or PFI w/o making it a mod call out.

Perknose
Senior AT Mod

WHY? it's fucking annoying and i constantly complain about it, he leaves out half the posts, "Lemon Law" that is, and i've told him that it's dishonest and misrepresenting a LOT of times.

Now i really don't want to defend Nick, mostly because i think he's a fucking retarded poster who never adds anything to any debate, but Lemon should learn to fucking quote, it's not hard and he has proven that he CAN do it.

It's not a trademark thing either, he's just being dishonest, misrepresenting and in 99% of all cases his posts are strawmen.

How he hasn't been banned a long time ago for this practice i have no idea, do you really really really like his opinions and that is all that matters?


Got a mod beef? PFI (w/o making it a mod callout), Derek, or mod pm. This applies to everyone, including you. Show us you're true military and stay disciplined. Use proper channels.

Perknose
Senior AT Mod

Hm, why no judicial oversight? People don't like "using the proper channels" for the same reason they don't talk to the police without a lawyer [read: informed peer review]. Only thing this makes me think is the mods don't want their banning/locking decisions to be viewed by all. Which, if they're really making the right decision, and not just scratching their own tickle to ban somebody, shouldn't be a problem. The whole way in which this is handled has always seemed very fishy to me, which it does not need to be. I can understand the difficulties and divisions that could arise from people taking sides on a modding decision, but nobody ever said being a fair ruler was simple.
In the interest of the scientific method and research I would find it interesting if there were a temporary change in modding procedures, the whole process made transparent-- debates about the decision allowed in public view, posters bring forth histories of a poster for all to see, and make a decision on. Would be a telling social experiment, to see the effect/potential divisions such a thing has on the board and moral of posters. I don't know of a precedent on other forums where this has been tried. Early bird gets the worm!

Back on topic, I thought the following was very telling: "In his speech he turned criticisms about authoritarianism on their head, saying that new state powers were guarantors of liberty, not threats to it."

I've resigned to the thought that it is inevitable that we are going to lose our rights, perhaps fully in the next 25 years. I don't know how much longer after that it will take for them to be abused and turned against good men seeking to bring down the evil men in power. Would wiretapping be used by certain MPs in GB to gain an edge against their opponents during debate time? Undoubtedly. The time frame on this, however, is what I'm unsure of. I imagine by the time I'm 60 this will be common practice. I'm not sure if I want to bring kids into this world if it's going to be like that.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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England fvcking sucks ass now and so do many of its people for putting up with and encouraging this. there is a laundry list of threads on AT over the past few years about some of the wildly oppressive and silly things the country is doing now or will be doing soon, they are quite insane.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
England fvcking sucks ass now and so do many of its people for putting up with and encouraging this. there is a laundry list of threads on AT over the past few years about some of the wildly oppressive and silly things the country is doing now or will be doing soon, they are quite insane.

I think America is soon headed down the same route.

Do you think there could be a correlation between the percentage of a nation's populace that is dependent on welfare, and the political freedoms enjoyed in that nation? I think you could argue there is, but whether the relationship is symptomatic or causal, I do not know.

I would guess causal-- by having a welfare state, fewer people think about and care about their future. They become dependent on the state and believe what the state tells them ("We need these powers to fight terrorism"), or simply stop caring about what goes on in the state because chances are they aren't going to be making waves large enough to draw attention to themselves. Hence the politicians are free to pursue a power-grabbing campaign.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, and I actually stole it from someone else whose name escapes me, but political correctness will be the downfall of modern society. Why everyone is obsessed with saving people (welfare) from the consequences of laziness is beyond me.