Engineers of the past vs Todays Engineers

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
91
do you feel that the older engineers (read early 20th century) accomplished more than what todays engineers do? i feel that the older structural engineers, and what not had SO much more to achieve and yet the did it with very little extra help other than knowledge. no cad, no computers just pen and paper. and what they ended up building was extraordinary.

think of all the bridges they build that are still standing etc.

what do you feel?
 

cavemanmoron

Lifer
Mar 13, 2001
13,664
28
91
Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
do you feel that the older engineers (read early 20th century) accomplished more than what todays engineers do? i feel that the older structural engineers, and what not had SO much more to achieve and yet the did it with very little extra help other than knowledge. no cad, no computers just pen and paper. and what they ended up building was extraordinary.

think of all the bridges they build that are still standing etc.

what do you feel?

Look at the Pentagon,it was built extra strong.

Hoover dam,
Golden Gate Bridge,
Brooklyn bridge
etc............
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
38,241
4
0
So then I guess the people that built the pyramids and the great wall were even better, since their stuff has been standing even longer.

There are plenty of cool buildings and bridges being put up now, like the Millau Viaduct in France. It's jsut that they haven't had 50-100 years to become famous yet.
 

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
91
Originally posted by: notfred
So then I guess the people that built the pyramids and the great wall were even better, since their stuff has been standing even longer.

There are plenty of cool buildings and bridges being put up now, like the Millau Viaduct in France. It's jsut that they haven't had 50-100 years to become famous yet.

the viaduc is an absolute master piece. however think back to before you were alive and look at how many times engineers tried untried and untested things, while today most people go off of what is already known. they are much much more reserved today than they were back then. although i guess you could call it safety, but seriously why not go ALL out?

and eh, the pyramids and great wall are good for their time and have withstood the tests, but they are all just vertical and walls, nothing super dangerous about their construction or what could happen when being built. or while in use. although i guess that could be contribuuted to the knowledge back then of what they could do.
 

notfred

Lifer
Feb 12, 2001
38,241
4
0
Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
Originally posted by: notfred
So then I guess the people that built the pyramids and the great wall were even better, since their stuff has been standing even longer.

There are plenty of cool buildings and bridges being put up now, like the Millau Viaduct in France. It's jsut that they haven't had 50-100 years to become famous yet.

the viaduc is an absolute master piece. however think back to before you were alive and look at how many times engineers tried untried and untested things, while today most people go off of what is already known. they are much much more reserved today than they were back then. although i guess you could call it safety, but seriously why not go ALL out?

You were a hell of a lot less likely to get sued in 1900 for trying new and untested things. I don't know if you've noticed, but they don't even put swings in kids' playgrounds anymore, because of liability/safety reasons.
 

PG

Diamond Member
Oct 25, 1999
3,426
44
91
I'm a mechanical engineer and I would agree.
I can remember some teachers and classes in college that simply blew me away.
My first CAD class was in around 1990 when 286 computers were the norm. AutoCAD came on approx. a dozen 720K 3 1/2" floppy disks and was a huge program. In addition to the CAD work the teacher made us learn how to draw things on paper with a T-square, triangles, etc. I wonder how many people know those tricks now? I know I've forgotten most of them.
Another teacher taught us graphical methods of calculating kinematics. We could use thse graphical methods to find velocity, acceleration, jerk, etc. of 4 bar linkages and other moving things. Nowdays people use equations or a computer program.
Yet another teacher used computers for FEA but would create and analyze equations for a few nodes by hand to check the computer calculations. He never trusted the computers and would catch errors that they made from time to time.
These guys really knew what they were doing and sadly, I've probably forgot almost all of that stuff I've learned from them.

 

Oscar1613

Golden Member
Jan 31, 2001
1,424
0
0
Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
Originally posted by: notfred
So then I guess the people that built the pyramids and the great wall were even better, since their stuff has been standing even longer.

There are plenty of cool buildings and bridges being put up now, like the Millau Viaduct in France. It's jsut that they haven't had 50-100 years to become famous yet.

the viaduc is an absolute master piece. however think back to before you were alive and look at how many times engineers tried untried and untested things, while today most people go off of what is already known. they are much much more reserved today than they were back then. although i guess you could call it safety, but seriously why not go ALL out?

and eh, the pyramids and great wall are good for their time and have withstood the tests, but they are all just vertical and walls, nothing super dangerous about their construction or what could happen when being built. or while in use. although i guess that could be contribuuted to the knowledge back then of what they could do.

we most likely couldnt build a replica of the pyramids today, even using modern equipment. the blocks are fit together so well you cannot even stick a razor blade between them.

and if we had to use only technology available to them when they were originally built, forget it.
 

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
91
Originally posted by: Oscar1613
Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
Originally posted by: notfred
So then I guess the people that built the pyramids and the great wall were even better, since their stuff has been standing even longer.

There are plenty of cool buildings and bridges being put up now, like the Millau Viaduct in France. It's jsut that they haven't had 50-100 years to become famous yet.

the viaduc is an absolute master piece. however think back to before you were alive and look at how many times engineers tried untried and untested things, while today most people go off of what is already known. they are much much more reserved today than they were back then. although i guess you could call it safety, but seriously why not go ALL out?

and eh, the pyramids and great wall are good for their time and have withstood the tests, but they are all just vertical and walls, nothing super dangerous about their construction or what could happen when being built. or while in use. although i guess that could be contribuuted to the knowledge back then of what they could do.

we most likely couldnt build a replica of the pyramids today, even using modern equipment. the blocks are fit together so well you cannot even stick a razor blade between them.

and if we had to use only technology available to them when they were originally built, forget it.

i bet we could. but we would have to bypass every single law/rule/ordinance ever put up by OSHA, the feds, the locals, the whomevers.

given enough time, enough people, and enough force we could. back then they worked to survive, now we just work to get extra goods. however, couldnt the razor blade thing you speak of be a part of the fact that when they were originally constructed they had slight holes, but over time sand particles filled in the holes and were slowly packed together?
 
Nov 5, 2001
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todays engineers, at least structurally, are better. Just about anyone can build something if you overdesign it so much that the walls are 4 feet thick. Modern engineering i much more efficient.
 

dr150

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2003
6,570
24
81
Engineers of the past had more tangible hands-on knowledge (i.e. less computer work) which made them more creative and flexible with their ideas.
 
Nov 5, 2001
18,366
3
0
Originally posted by: dr150
Engineers of the past had more tangible hands-on knowledge (i.e. less computer work) which made them more creative and flexible with their ideas.

more creative? modern structures are MUCh more outlandish than most older structures. While historic structures are notable because of the lack of advanced construction techniques, the engineering pales in comparison to modern structures. Engineering has become more advanced, and the strides made in construction materials and techniques have even further expanded the horizon.

My favorite impressive fact is that the Empire State Building was built in 6 monhs, while yet today, I have a hard time getting a 10,000 sf single story building finished in the same amount of time. THAT is amazing.
 

Legend

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2005
2,254
1
0
Not enough Americans want to be solid engineers. I remember my freshman year when there was all these lazy people in engineering because it paid well. Every seat in class was taken. By the end, I had a comfortable 3 chairs to myself.

But then again, there's so much more engineering going on. Like computers for instance.
 

JoeKing

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,641
1
81
I don't know, I just watched a documentary on the building of the Grand Coulee Dam and it's amazing was they were able to do with the technology of the time...
 

NogginBoink

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
5,322
0
0
Companies are less willing to take risks today, so we see fewer examples of engineering worth marveling about
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
You all are smoking crack.

We couldn't build the pyramids today with modern equipment? Who are you kidding? We can build ANYTHING if we have the money and the willpower to do it. The broklyn bridge alone has a factor of safety of 16 by todays standards, what a collosal waste of money (it could have been built for a quarter of the cost). Could the engineers of a hundered years ago built the chunnel? Engineering today is light years ahead of history, with computing power to crunch the numbers the only limitations on creativity and what we can accomplish is the dollars to pay for it. We can and do turn mountains inside out for gods sake.
 

Legend

Platinum Member
Apr 21, 2005
2,254
1
0
Companies are less willing to take risks today, so we see fewer examples of engineering worth marveling about

Are you kidding me? Everything today is engineered. There's embedded systems everywhere in even a common houshold. Cell phones, HDTVs, computers, video game consoles, Blue Ray, etc. etc. All engineered.

Do you realize how much stuff goes on when you pick up your cell phone or send a reply to here. All engineered.

Furthermore we're constantly re-engineering old techonolgies to reduce costs by as much as 90%.

We're about to master Fusion and have an infinite supply of 100% clean power.
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,575
744
136
Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats
Originally posted by: dr150
Engineers of the past had more tangible hands-on knowledge (i.e. less computer work) which made them more creative and flexible with their ideas.

more creative? modern structures are MUCh more outlandish than most older structures. While historic structures are notable because of the lack of advanced construction techniques, the engineering pales in comparison to modern structures. Engineering has become more advanced, and the strides made in construction materials and techniques have even further expanded the horizon.

My favorite impressive fact is that the Empire State Building was built in 6 monhs, while yet today, I have a hard time getting a 10,000 sf single story building finished in the same amount of time. THAT is amazing.

I agree that engineers of today have much better materials to work with, as well as much better computing tools.

And that's precisely why engineers had to be "better" back in the "old days" (i.e. pre-70's). Working with crappy materials (riddled with imperfections) and slide rules, engineers needed to exercise much more judgement while making decisions. How good must you be to run a computer program that calculates the answer to 10 decimal places?

One of my favorite examples of "old school" engineering is "Kelly" Johnson and the the SR-70 Blackbird, which was designed in the 1960's (I think) at the Lockheed "Skunk Works". "Kelly" set the amount of the body side flair (which merged into the delta wing) based on a few slide rule calculations. Now he was a real engineer!

 

Lalakai

Golden Member
Nov 30, 1999
1,634
0
76
agreed. I remember an old engineer who was training me. As we were going through some equations that weren't making sense, he would tear the equations apart, substitute portions of the equations with alternate methods. He never had to use book but knew 'em all by heart. That type of learning gives you the ability to know exactly the strong and weak points in equations, and why the results are the way they are. I still keep all the old manuals that have since been turned into computer programs, and when i teach new people, we still do it long hand the first couple times through.

And i agree with other statements; liability is a big issue now and it restricts a great deal of the "art" of engineering. Oh well, dinosaurs are extinct also, and the "artist engineers" may be next. Hopefully i won't see that day.
 

EatSpam

Diamond Member
May 1, 2005
6,423
0
0
Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
do you feel that the older engineers (read early 20th century) accomplished more than what todays engineers do? i feel that the older structural engineers, and what not had SO much more to achieve and yet the did it with very little extra help other than knowledge. no cad, no computers just pen and paper. and what they ended up building was extraordinary.

think of all the bridges they build that are still standing etc.

what do you feel?

Engineers of the past spoke English and German. Engineers of today speak Hindi and Mandarin.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
do you feel that the older engineers (read early 20th century) accomplished more than what todays engineers do? i feel that the older structural engineers, and what not had SO much more to achieve and yet the did it with very little extra help other than knowledge. no cad, no computers just pen and paper. and what they ended up building was extraordinary.

think of all the bridges they build that are still standing etc.

what do you feel?


I think people in general were more capable back then. Nowadays, all these little tasks are done for us and we don't use our brains as much.

In addition, back then they seemed to have a different philosophy when building things. The saying went, "when in doubt, build it stout". Things nowadays are built cheaply, the object doing the bare minimum.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats
todays engineers, at least structurally, are better. Just about anyone can build something if you overdesign it so much that the walls are 4 feet thick. Modern engineering i much more efficient.

The fools of today call it "efficiency". The engineers of yesterday would have called it "hardly any margin for error".

Engineers back then had to be REAL engineers. They had to know this stuff by heart. The "engineers" today often are little more than end-users, having all the hard work done by software that others programmed for them. People had to be more aware of the inner workings of things back then.

Today, we hope that we can get to the the Moon by 2020. In the 1960's, it took them less than 9 years to go from sending the first person in space to walking on the Moon. Some of this can be attributed to very capable engineers, some of it can be blamed on the pansy, fearful, risk averse, lazy society that has become modern America. People back then weren't afraid to take on great challenges with great risks in order to achieve great things.
 

VTHodge

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2001
1,575
0
0
Originally posted by: PG
I'm a mechanical engineer and I would agree.
I can remember some teachers and classes in college that simply blew me away.
My first CAD class was in around 1990 when 286 computers were the norm. AutoCAD came on approx. a dozen 720K 3 1/2" floppy disks and was a huge program. In addition to the CAD work the teacher made us learn how to draw things on paper with a T-square, triangles, etc. I wonder how many people know those tricks now? I know I've forgotten most of them.
Another teacher taught us graphical methods of calculating kinematics. We could use thse graphical methods to find velocity, acceleration, jerk, etc. of 4 bar linkages and other moving things. Nowdays people use equations or a computer program.
Yet another teacher used computers for FEA but would create and analyze equations for a few nodes by hand to check the computer calculations. He never trusted the computers and would catch errors that they made from time to time.
These guys really knew what they were doing and sadly, I've probably forgot almost all of that stuff I've learned from them.

They still teach a lot of those things. I just got my BSME in 2003 and we learned FEA by hand, graphical kinematics, using scales, drafting techniques, all that stuff.

On the final exam, you had to do a sketch of a design using a credit card as a straight edge to simulate the "designing on a bar napkin" idea.