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Engineers & Engineering students, does it bother you that...

RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
8,956
0
76
people make up titles that include the word engineer even though they aren't P. Eng.'s? It seems like the trendy thing these days (especially in IT) to make up job titles with the word engineer in them. It's a pet peeve of mine because engineering school is no walk in the park and the fact that some people just make up titles job with "engineer" in them diminishes the value of B. Eng. degrees.

I'm wondering if I'm the only one that's bothered by this.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,991
9
81
Yes, it demeans the title, but what can you do? Programmers don't want to be known as programmers...
 

pillage2001

Lifer
Sep 18, 2000
14,037
0
76
Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
people make up titles that include the word engineer even though they aren't P. Eng.'s? It seems like the trendy thing these days (especially in IT) to make up job titles with the word engineer in them. It's a pet peeve of mine because engineering school is no walk in the park and the fact that some people just make up titles job with "engineer" in them diminishes the value of P. Eng. degrees.

I'm wondering if I'm the only one that's bothered by this.
You mean, sales Engineer??
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,091
12
76
fobot.com
hey, i just wanted a job, they didn't ask me to create the title

call me whatever you want, just give me a raise and more time off
 

RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
8,956
0
76
Originally posted by: FoBoT
hey, i just wanted a job, they didn't ask me to create the title
call me whatever you want, just give me a raise and more time off
Actually your response in the other thread is what reminded me of this. It's nothing personal against you, Microsoft and Cisco seem to be having a grand old time making anyone who wants to write an exam become an engineer...
 

Heisenberg

Lifer
Dec 21, 2001
10,621
0
0
I'm not an engineer, but people adding the word "science" to everything annoys me. If you have to add the word science to it, it isn't.
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,091
12
76
fobot.com
Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle
Originally posted by: FoBoT
hey, i just wanted a job, they didn't ask me to create the title
call me whatever you want, just give me a raise and more time off
Actually your response in the other thread is what reminded me of this. It's nothing personal against you, Microsoft and Cisco seem to be having a grand old time making anyone who wants to write an exam become an engineer...
yeah, i thought so :p ;)

but i understand what you mean

in the navy i was an electrician, engineering Department (work in the engine room)
no degree in "engineering" , just an enlisted guy , but i know a little bit about something

but i am by no means an "engineer" in the classic sense, my Bachelor of Science Degree is in Human Resource Management :eek:

i can't do higher mathematics :(
 

Shivatron

Senior member
Apr 9, 2003
342
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
What is a P. Eng? Professional Engineer?

Engineers are bothered by everything.
Yes, that is what P. Eng stands for, and I'm bothered by the fact that you didn't know that. *ducks*
 

foofoo

Golden Member
Mar 5, 2001
1,344
0
0
i work in research in high energy physics and putting engineer in your title, even when your training is all in hard science (like physics) is actually considered a step down, like you didnt want to stay on the academic track. most of us who do engineering dont have pe credentials. but the types of engineering we do doesnt usually have much to do with the testing you take for the pe.
 

jsbush

Diamond Member
Nov 13, 2000
3,871
0
76
Originally posted by: Atticu5
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
What is a P. Eng? Professional Engineer?

Engineers are bothered by everything.
Yes, that is what P. Eng stands for, and I'm bothered by the fact that you didn't know that. *ducks*
lol
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Yep, bugs me to no end. At least the fad management term "reengineering" seems to be dying out. Overheard a couple of wanks just out of H.S. the other day referring to each other enginers, and it soon became apparent that they were referring to MSCE or some such certificate. Cracks me up.

I'm not sure what you mean by "P. Eng. degrees" though. Takes a fair bit more then the degree to gain the title of Professional Engineer, but in many engineering fields a Prof. Eng. title means next to nothing (while in some it is indispensible).
 

jeremy806

Senior member
May 10, 2000
647
0
0
Yes, that is something that has always bothered me.

More specifically, I do not think that it is appropriate for anyone to go by "Engineer" unless the person is licensed by their state as an engineer. Even having the degree is not enough in my opinion. Like doctors and lawyers, engineering is a licensed profession. If you do not have the license, you are a tech, not an engineer.


jeremy806
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,414
0
0
Originally posted by: jsbush
Originally posted by: Atticu5
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
What is a P. Eng? Professional Engineer?

Engineers are bothered by everything.
Yes, that is what P. Eng stands for, and I'm bothered by the fact that you didn't know that. *ducks*
lol
Hey, you're Canadians, it could mean anything :) It's more of a civil engineering thing in the US. I've never heard any engineer call themselves a professional engineer... and I don't know any civil engineers.
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Originally posted by: jeremy806
Yes, that is something that has always bothered me.

More specifically, I do not think that it is appropriate for anyone to go by "Engineer" unless the person is licensed by their state as an engineer. Even having the degree is not enough in my opinion. Like doctors and lawyers, engineering is a licensed profession. If you do not have the license, you are a tech, not an engineer.


jeremy806
As I mentioned above, in many fields a Prof. Eng. license means next to nothing ... Aerospace is one of those. I've only met 2 people so far in my career who had a PE, and one of them did it basically on a whim because he was teaching an EIT class and thought he should set an example. Of course I've worked primarily in space systems. Engineers involved in civil avaiation may be different.

In fact I suspect the only fields where prof. eng. license means anything is in most aspects of civil engineering, and for M.E. involved in construction, and E.E. involved in electrical power systems. I could be wrong of course :D
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
22,741
990
126
Originally posted by: jeremy806
More specifically, I do not think that it is appropriate for anyone to go by "Engineer" unless the person is licensed by their state as an engineer. Even having the degree is not enough in my opinion. Like doctors and lawyers, engineering is a licensed profession. If you do not have the license, you are a tech, not an engineer.
I'd have to say the exact opposite. Someone can get straight A's thoughout college (aceing all of his/her tests), be the best designer ever, win a Nobel prize, and you won't call him/her an engineer until he/she passes one more easy test? Yet you'll call an idiot - who doesn't know the difference between a sandwich and a giraffee - an engineer simply because he/she luckilly passed a test on his/her 25th time? Bah. The PE exam is just a way to form an exclusive club to raise the salary of the people in it.

The PE exam only really matters in a few fields. Mechanical engineering for example. Most of the rest of the engineers will never see one benefit of taking that test.
 

RaynorWolfcastle

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
8,956
0
76
Originally posted by: ergeorge
Yep, bugs me to no end. At least the fad management term "reengineering" seems to be dying out. Overheard a couple of wanks just out of H.S. the other day referring to each other enginers, and it soon became apparent that they were referring to MSCE or some such certificate. Cracks me up.

I'm not sure what you mean by "P. Eng. degrees" though. Takes a fair bit more then the degree to gain the title of Professional Engineer, but in many engineering fields a Prof. Eng. title means next to nothing (while in some it is indispensible).

Yeah by P. Eng, I actually mean the degree + work experience + professional affiliation. That last line should actually read B. Eng (Bachelor of Engineering) although some places give engineers B Sc. degrees. I'll fix it in my original post.

edit: I also get the feeling that being a P. Eng. in Canada is a little different than being one in the US. In Canada you become a P. Eng. when you:
1) Get the degree from an accredited school
2) Get sufficient experience under the supervision of a P. Eng.
3) Take the oath (and get the iron ring, but I know the US don't follow the ring tradition)

I'm pretty sure there's a test at the end of all this, but it's not technical in nature. It's more ethics and common sense than anything else.
 

Compton

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2000
2,522
0
0
Yeah, it bothers me. Sanitary engineers really bothers me. What kind of crap is that? No pun intended.
 

ErmanC

Senior member
Oct 25, 2001
439
0
0
I guess I owe it to the profession to weigh in. I am a PE (professional engineer) in Civil Engineering. It takes 4-5 years minimum at an accredited engineering school (about to become a masters degree, I have one) + 8 hour fundamentals of engineering test covering everything technical you've ever seen in your life + 4 years working for the man doing engineering work + 8 hour professional engineering exam covering your field....The PE exam is basically like the Bar exam for lawyers, but its completely open book and you can bring any reference you want. It only has about a %50 passing rate. In a nutshell, it's 8 hours of hell and if you pass it consider yourself lucky no matter how smart you think you are.

After all that, you're qualified to design things with the idea of protection of life and property and motivation towards public good. You take an oath and sign, seal, and certify your designs to essentially guarantee your work for pretty much as long as you're around (and maybe even after).


You ask does it bother me... If you're a techie with a 2-year degree or less calling your self a software engineer designing video games, then YES it absolutely does bother me. If you're really an engineering graduate, scientist, or even some professional programmers with the credentials to back it up and the experience to know why the title is important and the responsibility to care for human life and public good, then by all means you should have the right to take a test in your field and become a certified professional... whatever the title. It's not just a club to join, or a piece of paper, or a license to operate or anything like some people describe; its more of an assurance to the public that you do indeed know what you're doing.

Hope this was useful and gives some insight into why people get kinda "huffy" when the title of engineer gets abused.


BTW - The steel ring ceremony popular in Canada actually is practiced in the US, but not required. I've done it and it is pretty meaningful. I won't go into it all, but basically you get a steel ring to remind you of your dedication to the public welfare and good.





 

Goosemaster

Lifer
Apr 10, 2001
48,778
2
81
Originally posted by: ErmanC
I guess I owe it to the profession to weigh in. I am a PE (professional engineer) in Civil Engineering. It takes 4-5 years minimum at an accredited engineering school (about to become a masters degree, I have one) + 8 hour fundamentals of engineering test covering everything technical you've ever seen in your life + 4 years working for the man doing engineering work + 8 hour professional engineering exam covering your field....The PE exam is basically like the Bar exam for lawyers, but its completely open book and you can bring any reference you want. It only has about a %50 passing rate. In a nutshell, it's 8 hours of hell and if you pass it consider yourself lucky no matter how smart you think you are.

After all that, you're qualified to design things with the idea of protection of life and property and motivation towards public good. You take an oath and sign, seal, and certify your designs to essentially guarantee your work for pretty much as long as you're around (and maybe even after).


You ask does it bother me... If you're a techie with a 2-year degree or less calling your self a software engineer designing video games, then YES it absolutely does bother me. If you're really an engineering graduate, scientist, or even some professional programmers with the credentials to back it up and the experience to know why the title is important and the responsibility to care for human life and public good, then by all means you should have the right to take a test in your field and become a certified professional... whatever the title. It's not just a club to join, or a piece of paper, or a license to operate or anything like some people describe; its more of an assurance to the public that you do indeed know what you're doing.

Hope this was useful and gives some insight into why people get kinda "huffy" when the title of engineer gets abused.


BTW - The steel ring ceremony popular in Canada actually is practiced in the US, but not required. I've done it and it is pretty meaningful. I won't go into it all, but basically you get a steel ring to remind you of your dedication to the public welfare and good.

wow. I didn't realize it was that hard. Honestly, its worth it. I can't wait until the day that I can call myself an engineer instead of an engineering student.

Engineers are truely the most respectable people for me.

 

ManSnake

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 2000
4,749
0
0
I don't see why you are bothered by people with a BS degree having engineering job titles. Engineering is applied science. If you think anything other than engineering is cake, try to take some particle physics/quantum mechanics courses before you graduate.

Bottom line is the engineering discipline is derived from the study of science. So lighten up! :beer:
 

DXM

Senior member
Jul 26, 2003
264
0
0
Nope, doesn't bother me. Besides, most people know an "MCSE engineer" is not of the same caliber as say, an EE or CE.
 

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