Eminent Domain to seize land for flight 93 memorial?

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
4
0
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/flight93_memorial

Flight 93 families ask Bush to OK land seizure

PHILADELPHIA ? Relatives of those who died aboard United Airlines Flight 93 want the Bush Administration to seize the land needed for a memorial where the plane crashed in Shanksville, Pa., in the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

The Families of Flight 93 sent a letter earlier this month asking President George W. Bush to empower the Secretary of the Interior to take the land in dispute from a homeowner who had been in negotiations with the National Parks Service, said Patrick White, vice president of the families' organization.

The group says ground must be broken early next year in time for a memorial to be build for the 10th anniversary of the crash in 2011.

Svonavec Inc. owns one of the last large chunks of land needed for the 2,200-acre memorial, including the area where the plane crashed Sept. 11, 2001. Svonavec's treasurer Mike Svonavec has said the park service has not done enough to negotiate a deal.

White said Svonavec has not been willing to negotiate, and called that unacceptable.

"We've certainly sought to do this within in the process, following protocol as much as we possibly can," White said Saturday. "It has gotten to the point where we fear we'll lose significant momentum.

"We have an administration that has been very supportive of this effort. We just wanted to make sure the president is aware of what the circumstances are. ... We just didn't want to get lost in the shuffle."

In October, the National Park Service said it would use an independent appraiser to determine the value of 275 acres of land needed for the memorial. The NPS also said it could use eminent domain to acquire the plot if all else fails.

Construction of a $58 million permanent memorial and national park is scheduled to begin in 2009.

White, whose cousin Louis Nacke II died on Flight 93, said the group would favor Bush giving the interior secretary or director of park services the power to take the necessary steps to acquire the land before the administration leaves office in January.

He said the families understand that the outgoing president has plenty to do in his final weeks in office. But White pledged that the group would carry its fight to the Obama Administration, if needed.

"I think the rest of the family members and I feel there is no point at which we will stop," White said. "Whatever it takes. As long as it takes. Whoever it takes. To do anything less would be doing a disservice to those that we love."

Flight 93 was en route from Newark, N.J., to San Francisco on Sept. 11, 2001, when it was diverted by hijackers. The official 9/11 Commission report said the hijackers crashed the plane as passengers tried to wrest control of the cockpit.



Interesting question. It appears the company that owns the land wants more money than the Parks Department is willing to pay.
So is this a legitimate case for Eminent Domain?


 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
There has already been one tragedy there, lets not make it two.

Eminent domain was not meant for wal-marts or memorials.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There has already been one tragedy there, lets not make it two.

Eminent domain was not meant for wal-marts or memorials.

You have got to be kidding.

A country is not just all about money.

The memorial has not been built because of greed.

Take the land and build the Memorial now, the landowners should get nothing now.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There has already been one tragedy there, lets not make it two.

Eminent domain was not meant for wal-marts or memorials.

You have got to be kidding.

A country is not just all about money.

The memorial has not been built because of greed.

Take the land and build the Memorial now, the landowners should get nothing now.

The country is definitely not about memorials either.
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There has already been one tragedy there, lets not make it two.
Eminent domain was not meant for wal-marts or memorials.
You have got to be kidding.
A country is not just all about money.
The memorial has not been built because of greed.
Take the land and build the Memorial now, the landowners should get nothing now.
Ever the champion of individual rights, eh, Dave?
Do some reading. All the property owners have asked for is an independent appraisal of the land, unwilling to accept the Park Department's $250,000 valuation of 257 acres they've owned for 47 years.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There has already been one tragedy there, lets not make it two.

Eminent domain was not meant for wal-marts or memorials.

You have got to be kidding.

A country is not just all about money.

The memorial has not been built because of greed.

Take the land and build the Memorial now, the landowners should get nothing now.

Do you ever maintain the same opinion on any two issues? One minute you'll say the government shouldn't be allowed to steal people's land, the next you want to snatch it for whatever stupid reason suits you. Do the world a favor and jump off a bridge, fruitcake.

And why does this memorial need to be 2,200 acres? That's fucking huge, almost 3.5 square miles. That's not a memorial, it's a city. A memorial is a statue or monument erected that needn't be larger than a rest stop. It sounds like somebody is trying to get rich off the construction of this thing.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Appealing to GWB, with only 23 days left in his tenure is a sneaky strategy that Obama may decide to stop. Its guaranteed to make such a memorial into a politically charged divisive national issue, long before the full truth comes out regarding the crash of flight 93.
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Appealing to GWB, with only 23 days left in his tenure is a sneaky strategy that Obama may decide to stop. Its guaranteed to make such a memorial into a politically charged divisive national issue, long before the full truth comes out regarding the crash of flight 93.
Please, LL, no more Sept 11 conspiracy threads.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There has already been one tragedy there, lets not make it two.
Eminent domain was not meant for wal-marts or memorials.
You have got to be kidding.
A country is not just all about money.
The memorial has not been built because of greed.
Take the land and build the Memorial now, the landowners should get nothing now.

Ever the champion of individual rights, eh, Dave?

Do some reading. All the property owners have asked for is an independent appraisal of the land, unwilling to accept the Park Department's $250,000 valuation of 257 acres they've owned for 47 years.

I don't know all the facts in the case obviously.

What I do know is that it is clear that greed is an issue.

The U.S. loses again.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
1000 an acre sounds low even for north dakota farmland, no doubt Pennsylvania land

I'm not surprised you go for greed.

You're the one who wants to steal land from private owner. That makes you the greedy one.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,924
45
91
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There has already been one tragedy there, lets not make it two.

Eminent domain was not meant for wal-marts or memorials.

You have got to be kidding.

A country is not just all about money.

The memorial has not been built because of greed.

Take the land and build the Memorial now, the landowners should get nothing now.

And if an individual owned the land, you'd be on the opposite side. :laugh:
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There has already been one tragedy there, lets not make it two.

Eminent domain was not meant for wal-marts or memorials.

You have got to be kidding.

A country is not just all about money.

The memorial has not been built because of greed.

Take the land and build the Memorial now, the landowners should get nothing now.

And if an individual owned the land, you'd be on the opposite side. :laugh:

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
1000 an acre sounds low even for north dakota farmland, no doubt Pennsylvania land

I'm not surprised you go for greed.

You're the one who wants to steal land from private owner. That makes you the greedy one.

You guys are contributors to the reason why America is now a loser.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There has already been one tragedy there, lets not make it two.
Eminent domain was not meant for wal-marts or memorials.
You have got to be kidding.
A country is not just all about money.
The memorial has not been built because of greed.
Take the land and build the Memorial now, the landowners should get nothing now.
Ever the champion of individual rights, eh, Dave?
Do some reading. All the property owners have asked for is an independent appraisal of the land, unwilling to accept the Park Department's $250,000 valuation of 257 acres they've owned for 47 years.

Somerset County Tax Value: $19,810 for 230 acres

I don't know how the tax appraisal process works in PA.

I do know that if Federal money is used for land acquisition you have to use an MAI certified appraisal.

I've been involved in a few eminent domain cases and normally the gov't will go to as much as 125% of appraised value before condemnation and taking (which they will 'file' in court papers at appraised value and note the higher offer).

This makes the land owner look greedy. And the reason a higher offer is conditionally made is in most areas the gov't will be obligated to pay 'reasonable' attorney fees (normally 18-20% around here) to the owners of the land if the case goes to court.

 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,923
0
0
Why is this particular bit of land required for the memorial? If the people who own it don't want to sell it, the government should not take it away despite having that power.

Make them build the memorial somewhere else if they don't want to pay that much, but don't just seize the land. That would be too fucking stupid even for GWB.
 

MagicConch

Golden Member
Apr 7, 2005
1,239
1
0
I'd be disappointed if they did seize it. These are the tests to see how committed we are to the values of our society imo, ie when we see someone say something horrendous or make a decision that we think is inappropriate but we still protect their right to say it or to keep their property instead of using it for what we feel is the greater good.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
62,887
11,283
136
Fuck this...it's the site of a plane crash...nothing more.

True, the plane was apparently one of the hijacked planes on the day of the 9-11 attacks, but that's it.

It's JUST a plane crash site...no memorial needed...no emminent domain should be used.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Did they make a memorial where the Concorde crashed? Or where the various pieces of Columbia and Challenger fell? How many other thousands of accidents or incidents occurred where there aren't memorials now?

Yeah, it was an unfortunate thing, fine, put a nice polished granite slab somewhere in Washington DC with everyone's names carved in it.
Don't steal land from someone just because that's where the plane happened to crash.

"I think the rest of the family members and I feel there is no point at which we will stop," White said. "Whatever it takes. As long as it takes. Whoever it takes. To do anything less would be doing a disservice to those that we love."
Right.

"When I die, make sure that I get a big memorial. I want at least 5 acres of land just for me. And make it a national park, too."

Damn people, come on. You can make a 50,000 acre national monument out of it, but it won't bring anyone back.

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Somerset County Tax Value: $19,810 for 230 acres

I don't know how the tax appraisal process works in PA.

I do know that if Federal money is used for land acquisition you have to use an MAI certified appraisal.

I've been involved in a few eminent domain cases and normally the gov't will go to as much as 125% of appraised value before condemnation and taking (which they will 'file' in court papers at appraised value and note the higher offer).

This makes the land owner look greedy.

Thank you for the facts

Case closed, start building the Memorial, the greedy bastards get nothing.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Marlin1975
There has already been one tragedy there, lets not make it two.
Eminent domain was not meant for wal-marts or memorials.
You have got to be kidding.
A country is not just all about money.
The memorial has not been built because of greed.
Take the land and build the Memorial now, the landowners should get nothing now.
Ever the champion of individual rights, eh, Dave?
Do some reading. All the property owners have asked for is an independent appraisal of the land, unwilling to accept the Park Department's $250,000 valuation of 257 acres they've owned for 47 years.

Somerset County Tax Value: $19,810 for 230 acres

I don't know how the tax appraisal process works in PA.

I do know that if Federal money is used for land acquisition you have to use an MAI certified appraisal.

I've been involved in a few eminent domain cases and normally the gov't will go to as much as 125% of appraised value before condemnation and taking (which they will 'file' in court papers at appraised value and note the higher offer).

This makes the land owner look greedy. And the reason a higher offer is conditionally made is in most areas the gov't will be obligated to pay 'reasonable' attorney fees (normally 18-20% around here) to the owners of the land if the case goes to court.

who cares? he can ask for a billion dollars if he wants.

facts are that this NOT a reason for the state to take the property. while the landowner is a greedy prick i will back him 100% on him keeping the property.

the people wanting it free are fucking greedy also. screw them. sorry that family died but that does nto give them the RIGHT to take someones private property.



 

badkarma1399

Senior member
Feb 21, 2007
689
2
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Somerset County Tax Value: $19,810 for 230 acres

I don't know how the tax appraisal process works in PA.

I do know that if Federal money is used for land acquisition you have to use an MAI certified appraisal.

I've been involved in a few eminent domain cases and normally the gov't will go to as much as 125% of appraised value before condemnation and taking (which they will 'file' in court papers at appraised value and note the higher offer).

This makes the land owner look greedy.

Thank you for the facts

Case closed, start building the Memorial, the greedy bastards get nothing.

The terrorists who hijacked the plane would love to see American rights stripped away. Isn't it ironic that a memorial--built to remember those who died from such terrorists--was built by stripping American rights away?

Why do they need a 2200 acre memorial anyway? Thats a huge tract of land. This is a prime example of the government using its clout to trump individual rights.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,032
26,910
136
There is no reason to put a memorial right on that spot. How big was the debris field anyway. More than one parcel I'm sure.
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Somerset County Tax Value: $19,810 for 230 acres
I don't know how the tax appraisal process works in PA.
I do know that if Federal money is used for land acquisition you have to use an MAI certified appraisal.
I've been involved in a few eminent domain cases and normally the gov't will go to as much as 125% of appraised value before condemnation and taking (which they will 'file' in court papers at appraised value and note the higher offer).
This makes the land owner look greedy.
Thank you for the facts
Case closed, start building the Memorial, the greedy bastards get nothing.
It's a nice link, but I cannot credit any appraisal that places property anywhere in Pennsylvania below $100/acre.