Elon Musk named 2021 Time person of the year

[MrSquished]

I think it's more that people are often blind to their own advantages in a system and view those advantages as 'fair' while other people's are 'unfair'. The system does a ton to protect Musk's wealth and station but that's 'fair' to ponyo because the system works similarly for him. People voting to raise their taxes would be 'unfair' though because then other people are using the advantage of their greater numbers and he doesn't have that.

The thing is, fuck fair. Economics is not a morality play and our country would probably function better with higher tax rates on the very rich so let's just do it.

But it hasn't been fair so far. Study after study shows that the super wealthy overall pay less proportionally than those much less well off then them due to way the tax code is written in their favor. As Buffet famously did his little study, he paid a lower tax rate than his employees - and study after study has shown that to be the case in general.

If you haven't noticed ponyo also has hero worship for Elon. An attack on Elon is an attack on himself. When it was Bezos getting ripped a bit for his paying zero in income tax some years, he was not in here like a good cult member to Bezos. People have deified certain billionaires and deemed them the best arbiters of how to run society and it's become an issue in society.

 

[fskimospy]

But it hasn't been fair so far. Study after study shows that the super wealthy overall pay less proportionally than those much less well off then them due to way the tax code is written in their favor. As Buffet famously did his little study, he paid a lower tax rate than his employees - and study after study has shown that to be the case in general.

If you haven't noticed ponyo also has hero worship for Elon. An attack on Elon is an attack on himself. When it was Bezos getting ripped a bit for his paying zero in income tax some years, he was not in here like a good cult member to Bezos. People have deified certain billionaires and deemed them the best arbiters of how to run society and it's become an issue in society.

I mean I agree it's not fair, but that's kind of my point. He most likely views the systemic advantages the rich get as fair and legitimate because they get him what he wants. Conversely the systemic advantages other people in society could have such as voting for tax hikes on the rich would be unfair and illegitimate.

 

[MrSquished]

I mean I agree it's not fair, but that's kind of my point. He most likely views the systemic advantages the rich get as fair and legitimate because they get him what he wants. Conversely the systemic advantages other people in society could have such as voting for tax hikes on the rich would be unfair and illegitimate.

Yeah totally.

Solid chance if he invested in an entrepreneur who's company never took off and crashed and burned like most and just stayed middle or upper middle class, he'd be singing a different tune.

He is a classic case of I got mine so fuck all y'all

 

[manly]

Here's a good article on how Musk came to realizing a massive tax bill in 2021. It does show that if you're looking at it solely from income tax liability, Elon basically maximized his payout in absolute amounts by not exercising his options tranches long before TSLA took off. (That is not an argument for his generosity.)

Don’t make Elon Musk’s $12-billion stock options tax mistake | Fortune

Like many people earning stock options, Elon Musk waited until they were about to hit their 10-year expiration date before deciding to exercise.

fortune.com

Yeah totally.

Solid chance if he invested in an entrepreneur who's company never took off and crashed and burned like most and just stayed middle or upper middle class, he'd be singing a different tune.

He is a classic case of I got mine so fuck all y'all

All the preponderance of evidence makes it seem unlikely he actually voted for Joe Biden. I have a "friend" who was a rare Republican voter in Silicon Valley. All he cared about was voting for the party that favored lower taxes. He literally didn't care about anything else. That strategy didn't work in SV, so he ultimately moved to moderate Las Vegas where he's very happy. 1/3 of Asian American voters chose DJT in 2020 (higher % than in 2016) and I guarantee you many of these voters only care about "economics." Nothing else matters to them besides their net worth.

 

[fskimospy]

Here's a good article on how Musk came to realizing a massive tax bill in 2021. It does show that if you're looking at it solely from income tax liability, Elon basically maximized his payout in absolute amounts by not exercising his options tranches long before TSLA took off. (That is not an argument for his generosity.)

Don’t make Elon Musk’s $12-billion stock options tax mistake | Fortune

Like many people earning stock options, Elon Musk waited until they were about to hit their 10-year expiration date before deciding to exercise.

fortune.com

All the preponderance of evidence makes it seem unlikely he actually voted for Joe Biden. I have a "friend" who was a rare Republican voter in Silicon Valley. All he cared about was voting for the party that favored lower taxes. He literally didn't care about anything else. That strategy didn't work in SV, so he ultimately moved to moderate Las Vegas where he's very happy. 1/3 of Asian American voters chose DJT in 2020 (higher % than in 2016) and I guarantee you many of these voters only care about "economics." Nothing else matters to them besides their net worth.

While it's true that 33% of Asians voting for Trump is more than in 2016, it probably bears mentioning that his 2016 number was...32%. Asian voters actually helped Biden win this time because their preferences stayed nearly the same but their turnout skyrocketed, which netted Biden a lot more votes.

So yes, 1% more of Asian-American voters went for Trump in 2020 than in 2016 but as far as the influence on the election goes Asian-Americans were a decisive constituency in ensuring Trump's defeat.

What Happened in 2020 National Analysis | Catalist

Catalist, article by Yair Ghitza and Jonathan Robinson about the elections conducted in recent history.Know more.

catalist.us

 

[woolfe9998]

Here's a good article on how Musk came to realizing a massive tax bill in 2021. It does show that if you're looking at it solely from income tax liability, Elon basically maximized his payout in absolute amounts by not exercising his options tranches long before TSLA took off. (That is not an argument for his generosity.)

Don’t make Elon Musk’s $12-billion stock options tax mistake | Fortune

Like many people earning stock options, Elon Musk waited until they were about to hit their 10-year expiration date before deciding to exercise.

fortune.com

All the preponderance of evidence makes it seem unlikely he actually voted for Joe Biden. I have a "friend" who was a rare Republican voter in Silicon Valley. All he cared about was voting for the party that favored lower taxes. He literally didn't care about anything else. That strategy didn't work in SV, so he ultimately moved to moderate Las Vegas where he's very happy. 1/3 of Asian American voters chose DJT in 2020 (higher % than in 2016) and I guarantee you many of these voters only care about "economics." Nothing else matters to them besides their net worth.

Fortunately there aren't that many people who are top 1% to be swayed entirely by the tax rate, and even among them, some will still vote for the D.

I think we waste a lot of time worrying over people like Musk, who are at least voting in their own self-interest. We should be a lot more concerned about the significant portion of the 99% who vote R simply because of totally irrational tribalism.

 

[MrSquished]

Fortunately there aren't that many people who are top 1% to be swayed entirely by the tax rate, and even among them, some will still vote for the D.

I think we waste a lot of time worrying over people like Musk, who are at least voting in their own self-interest. We should be a lot more concerned about the significant portion of the 99% who vote R simply because of totally irrational tribalism.

We should worry less about people like Musk, but they do have a cult, and it's not just the ones that got rich off him like our resident acolyte. But it's funny, I just read that Elon said Warren was 'projecting' by calling him a freeloader. And like a good little soldier ponyo came in here and said Warren was the freeloader, by paying for Facebook ads? I mean these people are not rational beings. And there are a lot of them.

It's time to stop hero worshiping the tech billionaires

Elon Musk was named Person of the Year. We are outsourcing important public policy decisions to unaccountable businessmen, says columnist Noam Cohen.

www.businessinsider.com

It's time to stop hero worshiping the tech billionaires

Key takeaway:

• Columnist Noam Cohen writes that in hero-worshipping tech billionaires like Musk, we are at risk of outsourcing vital policy decisions to self-interested businessmen.

....


"It's a rich claim, since as a steward of capital, the federal government at a crucial momentand to promote cleaner energy, approved a $465 million loan to Tesla. In Peter Thiel's account, Musk's decision to accept the loan was the act of brilliance — not the loan itself. There was only one moment where a half-billion-dollar loan was possible, Thiel writes in Zero to One, "and Tesla played it perfectly." By hero-worshiping these tech moguls, however, we are at risk of outsourcing our most vital policies to self-interested businessmen who care little for how their decisions affect the general public. Musk saw electric cars as an opportunity and did good by promoting their sales; earlier, he saw online banking as an opportunity, and promoted that....

...As one longtime acquaintance described Musk to Time magazine, he is "a humanist—not in the sense of being a nice person, because he isn't." His humanism, instead, is defined as doing the best for "humanity" by pursuing his personal vision on our behalf. In other words, it is the type of humanism that takes advantage of the social policies, people, and institutions that made pursuing his personal vision possible in the first place without contributing back.

Hence, presumably, the attraction of space to Musk. Some see his interest as yearning to hit the reset button for a troubled Earth. I see it, however, as seeking to escape accountability to the rest of us. No gravity up there to tie you down."


This is the big issue.

 

[Bitek]

We should worry less about people like Musk, but they do have a cult, and it's not just the ones that got rich off him like our resident acolyte. But it's funny, I just read that Elon said Warren was 'projecting' by calling him a freeloader. And like a good little soldier ponyo came in here and said Warren was the freeloader, by paying for Facebook ads? I mean these people are not rational beings. And there are a lot of them.

It's time to stop hero worshiping the tech billionaires

Elon Musk was named Person of the Year. We are outsourcing important public policy decisions to unaccountable businessmen, says columnist Noam Cohen.

www.businessinsider.com

It's time to stop hero worshiping the tech billionaires

Key takeaway:

• Columnist Noam Cohen writes that in hero-worshipping tech billionaires like Musk, we are at risk of outsourcing vital policy decisions to self-interested businessmen.

....


"It's a rich claim, since as a steward of capital, the federal government at a crucial momentand to promote cleaner energy, approved a $465 million loan to Tesla. In Peter Thiel's account, Musk's decision to accept the loan was the act of brilliance — not the loan itself. There was only one moment where a half-billion-dollar loan was possible, Thiel writes in Zero to One, "and Tesla played it perfectly." By hero-worshiping these tech moguls, however, we are at risk of outsourcing our most vital policies to self-interested businessmen who care little for how their decisions affect the general public. Musk saw electric cars as an opportunity and did good by promoting their sales; earlier, he saw online banking as an opportunity, and promoted that....

...As one longtime acquaintance described Musk to Time magazine, he is "a humanist—not in the sense of being a nice person, because he isn't." His humanism, instead, is defined as doing the best for "humanity" by pursuing his personal vision on our behalf. In other words, it is the type of humanism that takes advantage of the social policies, people, and institutions that made pursuing his personal vision possible in the first place without contributing back.

Hence, presumably, the attraction of space to Musk. Some see his interest as yearning to hit the reset button for a troubled Earth. I see it, however, as seeking to escape accountability to the rest of us. No gravity up there to tie you down."


This is the big issue.

It's great he has this vision of Mars and a singular focus, but that can also make him incredibly dangerous.

Any casual student of history knows the danger of fervent believers in the righteousness of their mission and their ability to excuse any action that speeds them towards their goals.

Investing so much unquestioning faith and uncontrollable power in one person is disturbing.

Worship of any of these billionaires and associating business acumen with public interest is foolish.

 

[woolfe9998]

We should worry less about people like Musk, but they do have a cult, and it's not just the ones that got rich off him like our resident acolyte. But it's funny, I just read that Elon said Warren was 'projecting' by calling him a freeloader. And like a good little soldier ponyo came in here and said Warren was the freeloader, by paying for Facebook ads? I mean these people are not rational beings. And there are a lot of them.

It's time to stop hero worshiping the tech billionaires

Elon Musk was named Person of the Year. We are outsourcing important public policy decisions to unaccountable businessmen, says columnist Noam Cohen.

www.businessinsider.com

It's time to stop hero worshiping the tech billionaires

Key takeaway:

• Columnist Noam Cohen writes that in hero-worshipping tech billionaires like Musk, we are at risk of outsourcing vital policy decisions to self-interested businessmen.

....


"It's a rich claim, since as a steward of capital, the federal government at a crucial momentand to promote cleaner energy, approved a $465 million loan to Tesla. In Peter Thiel's account, Musk's decision to accept the loan was the act of brilliance — not the loan itself. There was only one moment where a half-billion-dollar loan was possible, Thiel writes in Zero to One, "and Tesla played it perfectly." By hero-worshiping these tech moguls, however, we are at risk of outsourcing our most vital policies to self-interested businessmen who care little for how their decisions affect the general public. Musk saw electric cars as an opportunity and did good by promoting their sales; earlier, he saw online banking as an opportunity, and promoted that....

...As one longtime acquaintance described Musk to Time magazine, he is "a humanist—not in the sense of being a nice person, because he isn't." His humanism, instead, is defined as doing the best for "humanity" by pursuing his personal vision on our behalf. In other words, it is the type of humanism that takes advantage of the social policies, people, and institutions that made pursuing his personal vision possible in the first place without contributing back.

Hence, presumably, the attraction of space to Musk. Some see his interest as yearning to hit the reset button for a troubled Earth. I see it, however, as seeking to escape accountability to the rest of us. No gravity up there to tie you down."


This is the big issue.

I take it for granted that at least half of billionaires are sociopaths and/or narcissists. One study concludes that 1/3 of corporate CEO's are sociopaths. The reason is that you tend not to build that kind of wealth by having empathy for other human beings. There isn't much we can do about this. We can't financially reward being a good person. And by definition, doing good for cash rewards isn't really being a good person.

My main concern about sociopathic billionaires is when one gets into the oval office. Like what just happened, and could happen again. And so far as that is concerned, it's the idiot tribalists who are likely to make that happen more than the top 1%ers.

 

[cytg111]

It's great he has this vision of Mars and a singular focus, but that can also make him incredibly dangerous.

Any casual student of history knows the danger of fervent believers in the righteousness of their mission and their ability to excuse any action that speeds them towards their goals.

Investing so much unquestioning faith and uncontrollable power in one person is disturbing.

Worship of any of these billionaires and associating business acumen with public interest is foolish.

This is so true. Dangerous af. Its just that in a sea of shit, this vector pops up and aligns with many of my ideals in terms of vision for the future, an entity that actually pushes the pieces forward and not making them fight each other for personal gain.
I mean, on some level, I get the perspective of a Trumpanzee.. finally here is someone that moves the cause forward damned be the how.

 

[Bitek]

This is so true. Dangerous af. Its just that in a sea of shit, this vector pops up and aligns with many of my ideals in terms of vision for the future, an entity that actually pushes the pieces forward and not making them fight each other for personal gain.
I mean, on some level, I get the perspective of a Trumpanzee.. finally here is someone that moves the cause forward damned be the how.

Yeah, I think the world does need change agents that can overcome conventions and push through novel visions, otoh, it also requires trust in the benevolence of their vision. It's a delicate balance.

Without disruption we have stagnation, but we need checks on disruptors so that they are still accountable for the negative impacts they have on society to ensure their change ultimately provides benefit, and they don't sacrifice the vulnerable or inconvenient for expediency.

We have a lot of disruptors right now... But I don't trust the strength of the controls. Eg Zuckerberg, eg Bezos, eg Trump.
Musk seems to be more well intended, but he's still human, and is certainly vulnerable to the same hubris and corruption limitless power develops.

I like what he's doing overall, but I don't trust anyone with that much power.

 

[feralkid]

The world could use more people like Tesla; we already have a few too many like Musk.



.

 

[manly]

While it's true that 33% of Asians voting for Trump is more than in 2016, it probably bears mentioning that his 2016 number was...32%. Asian voters actually helped Biden win this time because their preferences stayed nearly the same but their turnout skyrocketed, which netted Biden a lot more votes.

So yes, 1% more of Asian-American voters went for Trump in 2020 than in 2016 but as far as the influence on the election goes Asian-Americans were a decisive constituency in ensuring Trump's defeat.

What Happened in 2020 National Analysis | Catalist

Catalist, article by Yair Ghitza and Jonathan Robinson about the elections conducted in recent history.Know more.

catalist.us

Catalist seems to contradict exit polling I've seen for 2016.
In 2016, Asian Americans voted for Trump at about a 25% rate. Source: 2016 Post-Election National Asian American Survey. IIRC 538 concurs with this exit polling.

As we all know by now, in aggregate all minorities shifted (a bit) towards Trump from 2016 to 2020. As an Asian American, this is both infuriating and baffling. Some voters were clueless in 2016 and somehow fell for a charlatan without knowing why. By last November, there really weren't any excuses or rational explanations. But alas, it's too much to expect many people to be clueless in 2016 and to have learned anything in 4 years, as obvious as the lessons were.

Fortunately there aren't that many people who are top 1% to be swayed entirely by the tax rate, and even among them, some will still vote for the D.

I think we waste a lot of time worrying over people like Musk, who are at least voting in their own self-interest. We should be a lot more concerned about the significant portion of the 99% who vote R simply because of totally irrational tribalism.

The point I was alluding to was that for many AAPI voters, all they care about are so-called "economic" issues. Most don't give a shit about MAGA principles or concepts. One thing we've all learned since the Bush tax cuts is that as long as you give the middle class a little money back, they don't care that the largess in Republican tax cuts flows to millionaires and billionaires who didn't need the extra money, and many never asked for it either. And since stock markets and home values had risen substantially from 2016 to 2020, many voters were perfectly fine "rehiring" DJT for the job.

Despite decades of evidence as to which party's presidential administrations are more likely to experience recessions or inflate the public debt, people have deeply ingrained beliefs about economic stewardship and party affiliation (socialism bad!). Tax policy is a part of these biases as well, or irrational tribalism as you put it.

 

[MrSquished]

Yeah, I think the world does need change agents that can overcome conventions and push through novel visions, otoh, it also requires trust in the benevolence of their vision. It's a delicate balance.

Without disruption we have stagnation, but we need checks on disruptors so that they are still accountable for the negative impacts they have on society to ensure their change ultimately provides benefit, and they don't sacrifice the vulnerable or inconvenient for expediency.

We have a lot of disruptors right now... But I don't trust the strength of the controls. Eg Zuckerberg, eg Bezos, eg Trump.
Musk seems to be more well intended, but he's still human, and is certainly vulnerable to the same hubris and corruption limitless power develops.

I like what he's doing overall, but I don't trust anyone with that much power.

I like Musk's companies overall better than Bezos's but I think Bezos is a more honest dude. He is not a giant hypocrite when it comes to government and policy. Bezos is just Bezos.

 

[hal2kilo]

The world could use more people like Tesla; we already have a few too many like Musk.



.

Too much dreamer. Not a practical person. But he still understood the underlying principles of electricity more than most engineers alive today.
He let JP Morgan off the hook to pay him the royalties he deserved, and ended up a pauper.

 

[feralkid]

Too much dreamer. Not a practical person. But he still understood the underlying principles of electricity more than most engineers alive today.
He let JP Morgan off the hook to pay him the royalties he deserved, and ended up a pauper.

He was also a man who worked for the betterment of humanity, not the betterment of his bank account or the edification of his ego.

And yes, that means the sharks ate his lunch, unfortunately.

 

[MrSquished]

WSJ takes some of the clothes off of the emperor

Elon Musk Says He Lives in a $50,000 House. He Doesn’t Talk About the Austin Mansion.

The world’s richest man, who said last year that he was selling physical possessions, has been living in a billionaire friend’s estate and shopping for his own Texas palace

www.wsj.com

 

[Fenixgoon]

in case anyone was wondering about how else the uber rich avoid paying taxes, here is yet another strategy that is perfectly legal - and it can be "shared" to friends and family members:

A Lavish Tax Dodge for the Ultrawealthy Is Easily Multiplied (Published 2021)

Once aimed at small businesses, a 1990s-era tax break has become a popular way for Silicon Valley founders and investors to avoid taxes on their investment profits.

www.nytimes.com