Elizabeth Warren billionaire tax calculator broken?

Page 7 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,635
3,509
136
I don't think people realize how much a billion dollars really is. These people have mind boggling amounts of wealth.

But billion is just a million with a different letter. Brought to you by the same folks who think a 1/3 pound burger is less than a 1/4 pound burger.

A modest 3% return on a billion is still north of 80k/day. That's like Brewster's Millions level money. Who could spend that much money even if you wanted to? You could have an enormous estate with a full staff, and cars/boats/planes without touching the principle. Meanwhile I'm in line behind someone the other day putting food back because they only had $2 on their EBT.

The government in the early 20th century knew what such societal imbalance led to. Hence why we had strong worker protections, very progressive tax policies, and a more comprehensive social safety net. Thanks to Ronnie Raygun et al, most of that is gone and we now have a greater imbalance than pre-revolutionary France. Any kind of food/fuel shortage caused by some global instability and heads will start rolling.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
136
Medicare is something you pay for in literally every paycheck. Your ability to narrow-mindedly scope out one part of one plan isn't getting to what my ultimate point was. The original post was also in regards to the VA - not medicare.

You cannot say something is "free" or that you have a choice just because you pay for something under the guise of something with the word "tax" instead of the word "insurance premium".

Well, you can - but you would be in the same boat as anyone dumb enough to believe Warren/Bernie when they say the word "free"

Your comment was directly in response to a statement on Medicare and you said that the reason why they liked it more than private insurance is that public is free and private insurance is not. This is nonsense, there is private insurance that is every bit as ‘free’ as Medicare, just as he said.

You shouldn’t denigrate other people’s intelligence and knowledge when you don’t know what you’re talking about.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
Your comment was directly in response to a statement on Medicare and you said that the reason why they liked it more than private insurance is that public is free and private insurance is not. This is nonsense, there is private insurance that is every bit as ‘free’ as Medicare, just as he said.

You shouldn’t denigrate other people’s intelligence and knowledge when you don’t know what you’re talking about.

I honestly can't tell where you're going with on this topic but my original point still stands - Medicare has never - and will never be free. You pay for it in every paycheck. The government pays the private insurance, based on the taxes. The fact that there is a man-in-the-middle that collects the tax doesn't take away the fact that YOU paid for it. Not the government. YOU.

It isn't free. It isn't $0 premium. Your inability to see indirect capital flow is just mind-boggling.

The fact is that you have a MONETARY STAKE in these programs. Once you have a monetary stake - the concept that it can be compared to outside private insurance is null and void... because...wait for it..... You have a stake in the government program.
 
Last edited:

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
I honestly can't tell where you're going with on this topic but my original point still stands - Medicare has never - and will never be free. You pay for it in every paycheck. The government pays the private insurance, based on the taxes. The fact that there is a man-in-the-middle that collects the tax doesn't take away the fact that YOU paid for it. Not the government. YOU.

It isn't free. It isn't $0 premium. Your inability to see indirect capital flow is just mind-boggling.

But some Medicare Advantage programs from private insurers ARE free.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
136
I honestly can't tell where you're going with on this topic but my original point still stands - Medicare has never - and will never be free. You pay for it in every paycheck. The government pays the private insurance, based on the taxes. The fact that there is a man-in-the-middle that collects the tax doesn't take away the fact that YOU paid for it. Not the government. YOU.

It isn't free. It isn't $0 premium. Your inability to see indirect capital flow is just mind-boggling.

It is of equivalent cost to the consumer as other private options, and relative cost was the basis for your argument as to why people prefer government insurance. I’m not sure how much more clearly I can explain it.

One thing that’s important to note also is that if anything the government pays MORE for the average Medicare advantage enrollee. The plans are dramatically less efficient.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,635
3,509
136
"60 million to a dude who has one billion is a trivial amount of money"

Rich people don't live life's of "Oh it's just a drop in the bucket,
who cares". It's precisely the opposite of what got them rich. Basic characteristics that majority of rich people have:

You're correct. It's a game to them. When you achieve levels that exceed anything the human brain can comprehend, it's all about moving up and down some Forbe's list. Like getting a high score in Galaga at the arcade when you were a kid. That's why we get that obscenely wealthy dbag blubbering on TV at the mere thought of losing some of his points.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,636
136
For those claiming that billionaires would liquidate their assets and try to move them out of the country illegally, and renounce their citizenship over Warren's tax plan, my question to you is "why"? Her tax plan would make 0 impact on their standard of living. Why would a billionaire go through the headache of liquidating all their assets, obtaining new citizenship elsewhere, moving their entire household, renouncing US citizenship, etc, all for the sake of numbers on a spreadsheet? Particularly when they would then loose all their assets that they aren't able to liquidate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fanatical Meat

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
For those claiming that billionaires would liquidate their assets and try to move them out of the country illegally, and renounce their citizenship over Warren's tax plan, my question to you is "why"? Her tax plan would make 0 impact on their standard of living. Why would a billionaire go through the headache of liquidating all their assets, obtaining new citizenship elsewhere, moving their entire household, renouncing US citizenship, etc, all for the sake of numbers on a spreadsheet? Particularly when they would then loose all their assets that they aren't able to liquidate.

You could ask the 5000+ people/year who renounce


Why So Many Renunciations?
While the reasons for abandoning citizenship vary from one person to the next, the recent spike in numbers is largely due to newer tax laws, including the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) of 2010. According to the IRS, FATCA is “an important development in U.S. efforts to combat tax evasion by U.S. persons holding accounts and other financial assets offshore.”
 
Dec 10, 2005
25,053
8,333
136
You could ask the 5000+ people/year who renounce

So the primary reason is driven by people already living outside the US, where the burden for renunciation would already be lower. Seems like a perfectly comparable case to billionaires living in the US.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,245
16,716
136
You could ask the 5000+ people/year who renounce


You realize the people cited in the FATCA tax reporting thing typically are people who have lived outside of the US the majority of their lives.
They have to find FATCA compliant banks which per Forbes can be challenging.
So yes they are renouncing US citizenship because of a tax compliance issue but I see little value in a citizen who hasn’t been in the US most of their life.
These people aren’t billionaires because the number of US billionaires have been on the rise since 2010(ish). Appears the majority have foreign born spouses or families and simply don’t want to be bothered finding banks & accountants that are FATCA compliant since they have little intention of coming back.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
You realize the people cited in the FATCA tax reporting thing typically are people who have lived outside of the US the majority of their lives.
They have to find FATCA compliant banks which per Forbes can be challenging.
So yes they are renouncing US citizenship because of a tax compliance issue but I see little value in a citizen who hasn’t been in the US most of their life.
These people aren’t billionaires because the number of US billionaires have been on the rise since 2010(ish). Appears the majority have foreign born spouses or families and simply don’t want to be bothered finding banks & accountants that are FATCA compliant since they have little intention of coming back.

OK? But the point remains people have renounced for tax policy. To think more wouldnt do the same is naive.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,245
16,716
136
OK? But the point remains people have renounced for tax policy. To think more wouldnt do the same is naive.

I’m perfectly fine with a few billionaires going thru great effort and great risk and great inconvenience (pain) to save a few percent in their taxes. Zero problem with it.

Opinion: those that go thru all the hassle are simply too greedy to want to keep around. What value does some dude who has hundreds of millions or billions and his only goal is the roll around in as much money as possible. No way this guy is contributing to any charities or doing anything useful with his money to help anyone out.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
I’m perfectly fine with a few billionaires going thru great effort and great risk and great inconvenience (pain) to save a few percent in their taxes. Zero problem with it.

Opinion: those that go thru all the hassle are simply too greedy to want to keep around. What value does some dude who has hundreds of millions or billions and his only goal is the roll around in as much money as possible. No way this guy is contributing to any charities or doing anything useful with his money to help anyone out.

First, do you really think these wealthy people would do all this work themselves? LMAO

Second, do any kind of proof of the bolded? Or do you say that because it fits your narrative of rich people bad?
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
You're correct. It's a game to them. When you achieve levels that exceed anything the human brain can comprehend, it's all about moving up and down some Forbe's list. Like getting a high score in Galaga at the arcade when you were a kid. That's why we get that obscenely wealthy dbag blubbering on TV at the mere thought of losing some of his points.
It's also a thing where the human mind recalibrates toward a "normal" at whatever level you reach, so despite their vast abundance and all the security that can be maintained with it, their insecurities continue to gnaw and undermine them. And their peers all share the same dysfunctions.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
First, do you really think these wealthy people would do all this work themselves? LMAO

Second, do any kind of proof of the bolded? Or do you say that because it fits your narrative of rich people bad?
Charity is tax evasion.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,636
136
You could ask the 5000+ people/year who renounce

You do realize that there aren't 5,000 plus billionaires in the US, right? In other words, for these people renouncing citizenship could very well have an impact on their standard of living. Also, you are looking at the wrong population. These are primarily people already living abroad. So I don't think this is very applicable. In fact, if anything it emphasizes my point. Note that one of the main reasons given is so that foreign banks will work with you. If you are living abroad, its a pretty big pain in the ass not to be able to bank in that country.

This makes sense for upper middle class or lower upper class people already living abroad. I don't see how it makes sense for a billionaire living in the US to upend their lives.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
It's also a thing where the human mind recalibrates toward a "normal" at whatever level you reach, so despite their vast abundance and all the security that can be maintained with it, their insecurities continue to gnaw and undermine them. And their peers all share the same dysfunctions.

Our brains are just simply wired to be competitive. It doesn't matter if it's having the most money, getting first place on a spelling bee, first place on a competitive sport, or highest score on a videogame.

There is little you can do in that regard.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
You do realize that there aren't 5,000 plus billionaires in the US, right? In other words, for these people renouncing citizenship could very well have an impact on their standard of living. Also, you are looking at the wrong population. These are primarily people already living abroad. So I don't think this is very applicable. In fact, if anything it emphasizes my point. Note that one of the main reasons given is so that foreign banks will work with you. If you are living abroad, its a pretty big pain in the ass not to be able to bank in that country.

This makes sense for upper middle class or lower upper class people already living abroad. I don't see how it makes sense for a billionaire living in the US to upend their lives.

First, I never claimed all these people were billionaires. Second, see my comment on post 163.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,636
136
Our brains are just simply wired to be competitive. It doesn't matter if it's having the most money, getting first place on a spelling bee, first place on a competitive sport, or highest score on a videogame.

There is little you can do in that regard.
There is little you can do to curb human competitiveness. However, you can prevent runaway winners, which is what Warren is proposing we do. The way our economy is set up, the more money you make, the easier it becomes to make money. If we just let it happen, this leads to what we are seeing right now with severe wealth inequality.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,245
16,716
136
First, do you really think these wealthy people would do all this work themselves? LMAO

Second, do any kind of proof of the bolded? Or do you say that because it fits your narrative of rich people bad?

Do you really need Scrooge McDuck or Mr. Krabbs examples.
Some thing we all just know are true.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,222
10,877
136
But some Medicare Advantage programs from private insurers ARE free.
I've seen the ads, but I don't trust them. I just signed up 3 months ago for a Kaiser Permanente Advantage plan and I pay 54 dollars a month, which is their lower tier plan. I still have co pays and over 5k that I might still have to pay out of my pocket. Regular doctor visits are free.