Elizabeth Warren billionaire tax calculator broken?

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Please dont lecture me on how trickle down in the private sector doesnt work. That wasnt my point.

Of course govt ttrickledown works better. New Deal high tax big govt ideology built America & a broad middle class in the 35 years after WW2. Mere fact.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Ugh why are you nit picking so much?
“They could opt for private insurance but nearly all chose not to.”
This implies there is a choice, need me to explain it more?
Someone who is not eligible for VA care does not have VA care as a choice.

I was correcting your incorrect statement. I know you like to state factual things.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
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That's the thing though, you first have to show to people that taxing the wealthiest actually does work (meaning it doesn't magically make them poor or tank the economy, while providing solid tax revenue). Then I think you can possibly start looking at expanding on that.

I think some of you don't realize how gaslit people are on this bullshit American Dream that they've been sold. I've known lots of poor people who consider taxing the rich horrible because they genuinely think its possible for them to attain. They do this while struggling to afford to live day to day. But then they'll rant about corporations and CEOs, but somehow never make the connection.

I think an easier way to explain things is to get people to think about it in a way they can better comprehend. $1000 a day of income would be $365k. Triple that and you'd be a millionaire (just in income, meaning, that's from a single year). So a millionaire is making about $2800 a day. That's as much as a good amount of people are making a month, meaning just a single millionaire is making 30 times more than them. And Warren's plan is talking about targeting only to people making 50+ times that. Meaning, unless you're making 150 times what someone making $33k a year is, things you won't be paying this extra tax at all, and even then will only be paying an extra 1%.

And the revenue from this will enable us to move to things like UHC which will save people a lot of money on medical costs, which will save even middle class (although maybe as part of a transitional period you factor that into the progressive tax rates, so that people end up the same and the cost savings goes towards smoothing the transition), which effectively amplifies things for lower income people, who are disproportionately affected by health care costs (but transitioning where many of them had no or less coverage than UHC would offer, you'll have increased costs, but that should fall over time as better consistent medical care reduces the severity and costs of medical conditions).

Which, maybe you could meet halfway as well, where they could offer a voluntary extra tax rate. Incentivize it some (maybe offer some bonds or something so that you could get some later return for that), lock it to certain programs (health care, education, maybe even specific programs, so make it as part of transitional UHC, or program for subsidizing college education; so it can't be used to keep ballooning "defense" budget or something).
The don't raise taxes cause I might win the lottery someday defense.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Is English your first language?

If not to have a choice means you have more than one thing to select.
You can’t have a choice with one option.


OK youre changing the goalposts here.

First, you said
Look at Military people, sure they complain about the VA but nearly all use the free VA coverage. They could opt for private insurance but nearly all chose not to.
to which I replied that is simply not true. 1. not every soldier qualifies for vet care, and 2. of retired vets, the majority of coverage is from employer sponsored insurance.

And then you spiraled down to the choice argument. According to federal numbers, about 47% of the country has only one choice under Obamacare. That means the majority of the country does, save those military who qualify for vet care. Those who DO qualify for vet care also have the choice of getting optional private insurance. Even then, there are also options outside of the marketplace to get insurance that qualify as "Obamacare approved".

Anyway the point is, in most cases there is choice.

And the other point, that I made earlier, is if VA or indian reservations are an example, I want no part of government run healthcare. Maybe YOU admire that template, thats your choice.

And my original point, which is back on topic, is Warren's exit tax is avoidable, a joke, and will never pass.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Of course govt ttrickledown works better. New Deal high tax big govt ideology built America & a broad middle class in the 35 years after WW2. Mere fact.

I would rather go back to what Clinton said in a 1992 speech to the National Association of Manufacturers :

“We need to reduce the amount of government spending by the government,” Clinton said. “I'm just as against trickle-down government as I am trickle-down economics. I want to give that money back to people at the grassroots level to invest in America.”

Thats a plan I could get behind!
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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But you voted against Hillary?

Who?

edit: and for the record, not that anyone cares, but I never vote against anyone. I think thats a shitty way to vote. And also for the record, I didnt vote for Trump OR Hillary in 2016.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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“We need to reduce the amount of government spending by the government,” Clinton said

....in an address to a meeting of the redundancy department of redundancy?

Anyway, another example of why I don't like the Clintons.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
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By the way I think the funniest thing about this VA argument is that nobody bothered to check if people actually like VA health care or not. They do! Patient satisfaction is on par with private hospitals. Lol.

Also an interesting thing is that someone thought people renouncing their US citizenship was meaningful to this conversation. What made anyone think those people were wealthy? If anything taxes on the wealthy have gone down in recent years. It’s more likely to do with recent political instability and corruption.

People with large amounts of wealth often don’t have that large a percentage of it in highly liquid investments so the idea that they are carting it off to Switzerland in short order is ignorant nonsense.
 
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Dec 10, 2005
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It's weird how some people bend over backwards to defend billionaires. They've cultivated this notion for years that they are the holy job creators and are a great benefit to society, when arguably, they are actually a detriment to democratic government.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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It's weird how some people bend over backwards to defend billionaires. They've cultivated this notion for years that they are the holy job creators and are a great benefit to society, when arguably, they are actually a detriment to democratic government.

I think it’s more their general hostility to the idea that government can ever be the answer to any problem.

As health care came up here just look at the mental gymnastics they engage in to convince themselves that a European style government health care plan can’t work here despite huge evidence from across the world that it not only works, but works better. In the end they usually just land in something like it just won’t work because reasons.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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They have the choice to use private insurance instead, why don't they?

Uhhh.... Free vs. Not Free is a WEE bit different broceritops.

That's just silly to ask, it's like asking "Why do you choose public school over a private school that has way more advanced programs?"


There is a difference between "public option that everyone pays for via tax" and "public option that only the people who UTILIZE the public option pay for".

Similarly, if people didn't have to pay their property taxes to the school district I bet a lot more people would use private options.
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
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Uhhh.... Free vs. Not Free is a WEE bit different broceritops.

That's just silly to ask, it's like asking "Why do you choose public school over a private school that has way more advanced programs?"


There is a difference between "public option that everyone pays for via tax" and "public option that only the people who UTILIZE the public option pay for".

Similarly, if people didn't have to pay their property taxes to the school district I bet a lot more people would use private options.

Right but the cost should be taken into account when you decide which option is better. So it appears that even with it's failings medicare/medicaid is better than private insurance.
 
Dec 10, 2005
25,053
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Uhhh.... Free vs. Not Free is a WEE bit different broceritops.

That's just silly to ask, it's like asking "Why do you choose public school over a private school that has way more advanced programs?"


There is a difference between "public option that everyone pays for via tax" and "public option that only the people who UTILIZE the public option pay for".

Similarly, if people didn't have to pay their property taxes to the school district I bet a lot more people would use private options.
There are external benefits that you aren't accounting for. Public benefits do not only flow to those that use them. Everyone indirectly benefits because they are there.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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I think it’s more their general hostility to the idea that government can ever be the answer to any problem.

As health care came up here just look at the mental gymnastics they engage in to convince themselves that a European style government health care plan can’t work here despite huge evidence from across the world that it not only works, but works better. In the end they usually just land in something like it just won’t work because reasons.

I think its a defining mindset between the left and the right. When given a particular problem or issue, would you choose the private sector or the public sector to fill that need? Most people, myself included, choose both, depending on the subject. I dont think there are many people who think the government alone can provide everything for everyone, nor can the private sector.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
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Uhhh.... Free vs. Not Free is a WEE bit different broceritops.

That's just silly to ask, it's like asking "Why do you choose public school over a private school that has way more advanced programs?"


There is a difference between "public option that everyone pays for via tax" and "public option that only the people who UTILIZE the public option pay for".

Similarly, if people didn't have to pay their property taxes to the school district I bet a lot more people would use private options.

Uhmm, you apparently don't know how Medicare works. Medicare Advantage policies are private insurance that's paid for to the same extent as regular Medicare and there are plenty with $0 premiums. So yeah, they have the choice to use free private insurance too.

Shouldn't you know the basic facts before talking about this sort of thing?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
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Right but the cost should be taken into account when you decide which option is better. So it appears that even with it's failings medicare/medicaid is better than private insurance.

It doesnt appear that way to me at all. Each fill different needs. In the case of Medicare/Medicaid, you cant buy the same policy as someone who isnt utilizing Medicare/Medicaid. It will almost always be a supplemental policy. The only time private insurance wouldnt be an option is if the person/family simply cant afford it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
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I think its a defining mindset between the left and the right. When given a particular problem or issue, would you choose the private sector or the public sector to fill that need? Most people, myself included, choose both, depending on the subject. I dont think there are many people who think the government alone can provide everything for everyone, nor can the private sector.

I agree, but what is strange here is that US conservatives DON'T choose the government option even when the evidence is overwhelming in its favor like with health care. Generally speaking when there is an opportunity for decent competition and where consumers are free to choose the market option is almost always better. In cases like health care though consumers frequently have no meaningful opportunity to choose and competition isn't really effective. (when you get run over by a bus you go to the nearest hospital, not the one with the highest yelp rating, for example)

We have a system that shows both equally good or superior outcomes at a fraction of the cost of ours. People shouldn't care that it's a government option, just that it's effective.
 
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Reactions: JD50
Nov 8, 2012
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Uhmm, you apparently don't know how Medicare works. Medicare Advantage policies are private insurance that's paid for to the same extent as regular Medicare and there are plenty with $0 premiums. So yeah, they have the choice to use free private insurance too.

Shouldn't you know the basic facts before talking about this sort of thing?

Medicare is something you pay for in literally every paycheck. Your ability to narrow-mindedly scope out one part of one plan isn't getting to what my ultimate point was. The original post was also in regards to the VA - not medicare.

You cannot say something is "free" or that you have a choice just because you pay for something under the guise of something with the word "tax" instead of the word "insurance premium".

Well, you can - but you would be in the same boat as anyone dumb enough to believe Warren/Bernie when they say the word "free"